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Old 2011-01-06, 07:45   Link #21301
kingsky123
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er, so what happens to ange in the end? she died? from what i can tell she met future battler who was actually the writer and everything was just something he thought of because he couldnt remember due to the trauma??
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Old 2011-01-06, 07:51   Link #21302
Luxuria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The theory that we have figured before:

According to Ange, Okonogi tried to get rid of both Kasumi and Ange. Kasumi is a very aggressive and troublesome partner from the Sumadera, and eliminating her would be beneficial to him on the immediate and middle run (and if I recall correctly, it seems it would be beneficial for the Sumadera as well).
Meanwhile, Ange is a liability if left unchecked. Therefore, Ange believes that Okonogi sets the stage with Amakusa, so the latter would let Kasumi killing Ange, and then eliminating Kasumi. That would be 2 birds with 1 stone, especially that no one would figure what happened to them, as they are on Rokkenjima, a completely deserted Island.

Ange questioned Amakusa and bluntly told him this theory, which of course was not convincing, until she presents the weapons she has found in his "golf club bag": a sniper rifle, a standard machine gun, and a supsiciously old gun, a tokarev.
Ange explains that it already doesn't make sense for a body guard to carry a sniper rifle: why would someone supposed to protect a VIP in a very close fashion would use a rifle like that?
Let's admit they can predict a possible scenario, the presence of the Tokarev is a problem. Ange figured that it is an illegal weapon that was quite popular with the underground society in Japan. Therefore, it is quite fitting for the Sumareda.

Therefore, the whole idea was that both Ange and Kasumi would mutually kill themselves (as Ange serves as the best bait to lure Kasumi on Rokkenjima to begin with).
If it fails, Amakusa could simply snipe them all.
Oh I see.
Was this actually confirmed or it was just purely Ange's speculation? Or R07 didn't give any answers ; ___ ; ?
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Old 2011-01-06, 08:14   Link #21303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsky123 View Post
er, so what happens to ange in the end? she died? from what i can tell she met future battler who was actually the writer and everything was just something he thought of because he couldnt remember due to the trauma??
No, she is alive and pretty successful with her author career, even though her popularity soared quite lately (we can assume that Ange is in her forties, while Battler is in his later forties, early fifties).
Unless I forgot the details, I'm pretty sure Touya never explained what really happened to Ange, nor why he was writing the "* of the golden witch" novels. But he definitely remembers of everything before even Episode 4 Ange so.

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Originally Posted by Luxuria View Post
Oh I see.
Was this actually confirmed or it was just purely Ange's speculation? Or R07 didn't give any answers ; ___ ; ?
It isn't really confirmed, but the circumstancials evidence are there: I mean, why would Amakusa roam around with a sniper rifle and a Tokarev?
We won't know since that path won't go any further anyway so heh.

That being said, considering the magic end, it is really weird that Okonogi would still leave Ange alone, or even support her even if she let all the business to him.
As an observer of both ending, I must say that it is sort of disturbing to see Okonogi having such a win situation if he was really plotting like that (and suffice to say, that scene in Episode 6 with Amakusa is kind of ambigous as well, considering we can't be sure if it is a neutral perspective).

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-01-06 at 08:28.
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Old 2011-01-06, 09:19   Link #21304
CrystalStarlight95
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Hachijou Toya as Asumu, is that what somebody suggested? Well, I don't think I believe it, because they don't even foreshadow it. Plus Hachijou looks nothing like Ange nor Battler ._.

*sob sob* I couldn't resist! *sob* I just had to check this thread out *sob* I saw the spoilers and *sob* ,WHY, BATTLER, WHY?!?!?! *armsspreadkinzostyle*
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Old 2011-01-06, 09:36   Link #21305
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The entire point of how it was handled is to let us know that there is something about Yasu's sex, whether it is some degree of intersex or something else, while still allowing Yasu her dignity. After introducing the subject matter like that, it would be very crass to go back and shove a camera up her dress just to provide the readers with an "explanation".
And for that, the narrative has a completely extraneous character. Please. Either this is nonsense or Ryukishi wrote in an entirely pointless plot point to... I dunno, tease more shippers?

It's a pretty unfortunate position. To justify his existence with a single almost entirely sidelined point means he's basically less useful as a character than several wholly meta characters. Or else we must conclude Ryukishi just had to have it in there for the flimsiest of reasons.
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That being said, considering the magic end, it is really weird that Okonogi would still leave Ange alone, or even support her even if she let all the business to him.
As an observer of both ending, I must say that it is sort of disturbing to see Okonogi having such a win situation if he was really plotting like that (and suffice to say, that scene in Episode 6 with Amakusa is kind of ambigous as well, considering we can't be sure if it is a neutral perspective).
I don't know. There's a degree of ambiguity there. First, did the conversations between Ange and Okonogi really happen (consider when it happens)? If they did, did the conversation between Amakusa and Okonogi happen (how the heck would anyone know)? I mean, both could easily be interpretation on somebody else's part, depending on what's where in the stories that were written. Okonogi's conversation with Ange is not in and of itself proof of any suspicious activity, so we have room to doubt that he really would've wanted Ange and Kasumi both dead.

Maybe he was just a really nice guy who Ange worried might be shifty (perhaps understandably). I mean, Eva trusted him, and I think by now Eva's earned the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 2011-01-06, 09:46   Link #21306
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That's actually the other reasons I was doubting the whole deal with Okonogi and Amakusa.

Now the issue is: What's up with Amakusa in the trick end then?
His behavior wasn't suspicious, considering the situation. It is just that the weapons he has taken with him don't make much sense.

However, if we flip the chessboard, Ange's theory isn't flawless either: If the premise was to kill Kasumi and Ange, why would he need to stage their confrontation considering they are in a deserted island? For all we know, he could as well throw their corpses as fish food as well.
Thus, the existence of the Tokarev doesn't really prove jack. In fact, it could pretty well be a weapon just in case, for either himself or even Ange.

At worst, it is possible that Amakusa was actually using Ange as a bait, but nevertheless tried to protect her as well (but Episode 4 ending scroll and Episode 6 phone call are just death flag everywhere).
Unless, we use a "love filled" vision and consider that Okonogi implied that "Ushiromiya Ange should no longer exist" without necesseraly killing her. A shaddy way to recreate the same scenario than the magic end.
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Old 2011-01-06, 09:54   Link #21307
MeoTwister5
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It has to do more with the mysterious phone conversation between Amakusa and Okonogi while Ange was talking to Hachijou. That's the only link we have that Okonogi wanted Amakusa to do something to or with Ange. There's a good likelihood that perhaps at some point Okonogi did hire Amakusa to kill her, but somewhere down the like Amakusa relented. Reverse Stockholm syndrome if you will.
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Old 2011-01-06, 10:15   Link #21308
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The phone call itself could be interpreted in 2 ways, although the "love one" is a bit of a sketch. That said, nothing can actually confirm its actual relevancy (after all, this is a part woven by Featherine, since Ange never met Hachijou Touya in reality).

That said, the reality shown in Episode 8 seems to confirm that Okonogi was a "good guy" though, albeit a bit shifty (as shown with his dodgy stance with Kasumi in EPisode 4).
Otherwise, Ange would definitely never be left free like that, even if she gave what Okonogi wanted on a silver plate.
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Old 2011-01-06, 10:32   Link #21309
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Well, as you said, it's mostly Ange's own conclusions and one conversation of questionable veracity. The point I was making is more that we can't necessarily be uncomfortable with Okonogi "getting away with it" if he never actually got away with anything and if we don't even know if he was trying to.
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:09   Link #21310
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Re: Will Wright

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It's not just you, I feel the exact same way.
Great to find I'm not alone, then. People usually tend to ignore my posts here because said posts are infrequent (though I've been here for years),
tend to be essay-length and usually have some degree of finality to them, as "in final judgment" finality. That's not because I'm arrogant, it's just the way my mind works. But for some silly reason people tend to mix that mode of self-expression with "elitism" and what-not. Nothing can be further from the truth, really. On the other hand, I do find it amusing how clearly highly intelligent and well-read people like Renall, Jan, yourself and others indulge in day-to-day discussions here about shit that seriously isn't worth your time.

Quote:
As for your question of how people are enjoying this series, I'd say that the answer is that they have grown so attached to the characters that they no longer care about the actual story or tension.
I'm afraid you are right on that one. That's to be expected, of course, but still it rubs me the wrong way, because it's impossible to conduct a meaningful discussion in such an environment. Too much noise for my taste.

Quote:
I personally only legitimately enjoyed one character in the series, and that is Will.
My favourite has to be Erika of Ep5.
She was such a breath of fresh air, and although in retrospect her introduction was probably the point Umineko express went to hell, what a fun ride it was!
As for Will, I like him a lot, but I cannot forgive him having everything presented to him on a silver platter and Bern being easy on him (up to that Tea party, of course). Other than that, he's a fine character, indeed.

Quote:
It was a mystery lover uselessly struggling to keep the story from being a melodramatic romance, knowing full well that it would be impossible.
This take on Ep7 Tea party has actually never occurred to me, but it is certainly giving Bern/Will fight more reasons to exist that I initially was willing to acknowledge.

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I understand where you are coming from. I think that Ryuukishi's aim was to make the events a total tragedy from every point of view, fantasy, romance, and mystery. He just lacked the skill to accomplish that.
Yep, you got it right.

Quote:
The fantasy tragedy is terrible because it's not a true tragedy.
The problem is a whole bunch of people here think it's the core and justification of Umineko. Needless to say, such reasoning is killing me.

Quote:
What I think you and I are feeling about Umineko is not just a feeling of letdown as a mystery, but as a story.

Because we expected more. Not just as a mystery, but as a narrative. We saw glimpses of talent and expected it to shine through the ending. That glimpse of talent was nowhere to be seen in the ending. There was no sense of wonder, sense of amazement.
That was basically my point. Glad we agree on that.
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:21   Link #21311
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On the other hand, I do find it amusing how clearly highly intelligent and well-read people like Renall, Jan, yourself and others indulge in day-to-day discussions here about shit that seriously isn't worth your time.
You grossly overstate the value of my time. I don't know what Jan-Poo's excuse is though.
Quote:
My favourite has to be Erika of Ep5.
She was such a breath of fresh air, and although in retrospect her introduction was probably the point Umineko express went to hell, what a fun ride it was!
As for Will, I like him a lot, but I cannot forgive him having everything presented to him on a silver platter and Bern being easy on him (up to that Tea party, of course). Other than that, he's a fine character, indeed.
I still like Beatrice best. You know, the real one that was interesting before getting killed, unkilled, rekilled, and retconned into the most intolerable character in the series.

I also liked Battler before he stopped doing anything. I couldn't stand Erika, but I got quickly that she wasn't supposed to be tolerable. Which I assume most of her fans understand as well, and just like her because she's so masterful at it (and no question, she is). I mean, I hope. But I don't think she belonged, or else she should've been around sooner.
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:37   Link #21312
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Oh, and speaking of favourite characters. Let's not forget Kyrie of Ep7 Tea Party. I don't care if it was supposed to be grotesque, gross mischaracterization or just plain lie.

The fact is I've always believed her capable of doing what she did there, and I was having time of my life watching her finally doing it. It's that unique sensation when everything you thought a person capable of doing finally comes together and reveals itself in all its ruthless, naked glory. I laughed, I cried, I rooted for her because in her inhumanity she was the most human (in the truest sense of the word), the most alive of them all, the way she has always been, I believe.

Truly the stuff dreams are made of.
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:45   Link #21313
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I liked it because she was being as competent as she was talked up to be for once (instead of dying instantly), but it was grossly out of character to be that, well, impulsively stupid about things.

Like Jan-Poo pointed out: What if Beatrice was lying about the bomb?
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:53   Link #21314
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And that credit card with naught an ATM in sight. Yeah, I know...

Screw you, R07, you can't even portray a convincing villain for once! Even if it's a fake one...

Guess a miracle isn't possible after all.
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Old 2011-01-06, 11:55   Link #21315
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And for that, the narrative has a completely extraneous character. Please. Either this is nonsense or Ryukishi wrote in an entirely pointless plot point to... I dunno, tease more shippers?
Kanon isn't there to tease shippers, Kanon is there to illustrate a facet of Beatrice's motive. Again, as I've pointed out, the gender issue has to be important, otherwise there's no need for Zepar, Fufur, or Lion. Likewise, if Beatrice is just a girl occasionally dressed up as a boy, Zepar and Fufur should be two women with one dressed up as a man. There's also no reason for Natsuhi to talk about the man from nineteen years ago. None of those things has to do with shipperbait, but all of them have to do with ambiguous gender.

It goes far beyond Kanon.
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:13   Link #21316
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What you need to argue is that there is a need for gender ambiguity in the story, and thus, there is a need for these characters. There isn't, nor was the presence of one even remotely important before it was shoehorned in. Your argument amounts to "because Ryukishi put in a stupid and irrelevant plot point, these characters needed to exist."

Yet Kanon at the very least can exist for a half-dozen other reasons (some Shkanon, some not) without any gender ambiguity issues being material to the story (and they aren't, but that's a bad writing issue and not an incorrect interpretation issue). His character can fill other roles, and in fact does fill other roles. Cheapening him to an afterthought is disrespectful, but I can't really fault anyone for it since apparently Ryukishi thought we'd all be satisfied with him cheapening Kanon to an afterthought.

But really, the character has no reason to exist at all. Umineko as a whole and in component parts is no weaker if he doesn't exist in it. In fact, I'd argue it's stronger, as a story and as a mystery.

Or we could conclude there's something more valuable to him than scent-thrower-offer and Characterization For Dummies: A Very Special Blossom Episode vector.
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:20   Link #21317
musouka
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What you need to argue is that there is a need for gender ambiguity in the story, and thus, there is a need for these characters. There isn't, nor was the presence of one even remotely important before it was shoehorned in. Your argument amounts to "because Ryukishi put in a stupid and irrelevant plot point, these characters needed to exist."
Gender ambiguity needs to exist because it's a huge part of Beatrice's motive and why she feels she can't be happy in love. It's the reason why Kanon and Shannon accept the roulette. Shannon even explains that in EP8 with her conversation with Kanon that you get for solving their puzzles.

Of course there can be other reasons for that, but that's the one given in the text. As I pointed out, it's not just Kanon, it's a bunch of other things. Ryukishi could have ignored it all together, but he also has Will bring it to our attention in EP7. It's something we're meant to think about and consider as part of Beatrice's character.
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:25   Link #21318
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You grossly overstate the value of my time. I don't know what Jan-Poo's excuse is though.
I guess after so much time some people might have forgotten how were things before chiru. The situation was a lot different back then.

Ryuukishi created something unique. Yeah, certainly, you can find many of his ideas in several previous works, but he was the one who managed to put them together and he created a system that allowed the readers to discuss about this story through a very long span of time.
He was also able to create a sort of feedback author-reader that I don't remember seeing in any other work of this kind. He basically adapted his story on the readers' responses and theories.

The idea of the red truth was probably what I found particularly fascinating. Ryuukishi has been a master in presenting you closed room scenarios, guiding you through a set of plausible explanations and then denying them in the most abrupt and dramatic way leaving you completely mindfucked.

I remember myself grinding my teeth and then shouting: "this is impossible! How the hell the culprit did it if you deny all of this stuff! It can't be!"

It was a thrilling experience.

But it was so only because I had the certainty and faith that a brilliant and ingenious solution existed. My reaction would have been completely different otherwise.

The red truths were also an incredibly funny tool to use during discussions in this forum. The red truths allowed this to be a game.
A game needs rules, if there aren't rules you don't have a game. We had very few rules, we had very simple rules, but they allowed for a very fun game: The red truth is simply the truth, Battler's perspective is reliable.

I remember how I enjoyed that game. I was addicted. That's why I've spent so much time on this forum.


But then something changed. Chronotrig can confirm that after EP6 I lamented the fact that "the game" didn't exist anymore. There were simply no rules anymore, it was anarchy, and without rules you can't have a game.

The red truths became almost meaningless and the discussions could never reach a satisfying conclusion anymore. In the end if one wanted, he could argue that there was some kind of loophole that allowed his theory to be correct no matter how much preposterous it was.

We don't know.
We can't know.
We can't be sure.
You can't deny it.

So what exactly are we discussing about? if it's about how you enjoyed the story that can be done in like a week tops, there's really no need to go on indefinitely. And honestly I don't really care about that. Not because I don't care about a good story, but because I don't care about listening to other people's impressions.

You hated? You liked it? Big deal! That doesn't really affect my opinion. And I've been in forums long enough to know that you'll always find haters and fanboys in every human work.

De gustibus non disputandum est

Ancient roman wisdom, and they were damn right; so you can pull me out of any discussion of that kind.


I think my activity in this forum went downhill from EP6 onward (apart from the initial shkanon struggles), because there was simply no much point in discussing theories anymore.

And now... it feels like there wasn't a point to begin with. You can choose whatever theory suits you better and believe it's the truth. But of course for that, you don't really need a forum.
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:40   Link #21319
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And now... it feels like there wasn't a point to begin with. You can choose whatever theory suits you better and believe it's the truth. But of course for that, you don't really need a forum.
That's so sad **sniff**

I hope at least Witches & Woodlands pt.3 is going to see the light of day.

Otherwise I.. WANT... FORGIVE YOU!!
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:52   Link #21320
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And now... it feels like there wasn't a point to begin with. You can choose whatever theory suits you better and believe it's the truth. But of course for that, you don't really need a forum.
That's Schrodinger's paradox for you: a bunch of conflicting theories are hidden within the box known as Rokkenjima, which is forever closed, allowing all these accounts to coexist regardless of their irreconcilability with one another. That is, of course, until one chooses to open the box...

They really weren't kidding when they said Rokkenjima was such a box way back when.
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