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Old 2011-01-05, 15:41   Link #241
Will Wright
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If you want to get technical we were discussing the mystery genre not the overall series. But sure, as you wish. Musoka, if you wish to continue that debate I suppose we would have to do it over at the other thread. I get your points though, just disagree about the whydunit argument. Outside of that, I'm fine with it.

As for discussing episode 8 itself, I think that my biggest problems with it come down to the fact that episode 7 was basically entirely meaningless. Will, Lion and Erika(to a lesser degree) just showing up felt wrong. Yes I know that Erika had an excuse, they consider her part of the game and all. But seriously, all that talk about Lion being Beatrice's chance at a happy ending was just useless.

I did like the Erika scenes though. She felt like a more likable and clever character than before.
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:57   Link #242
musouka
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I'll respond to your previous message in the general spoilers thread.

EP7 wasn't entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8. The Tea Party of EP7 was entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8.

Think of it this way.

If EP7 had left off with Will and Lion quietly exiting the chapel, content in their knowledge of putting Beatrice to a beautiful, peaceful rest--the kind of rest she had longed for--and then cut to a crying six year old Ange to show that we still had some loose ends to wrap up, there would be absolutely no problem with how EP8 ended up.

Doing things like that allows for the following things that EP8 did:

1. The ending we saw for Will and Lion in EP7 was too cruel. If they had just exited the chapel, there wouldn't have been any sense of lost catharsis in their situation. We would have been able to fully accept them as honorable guests borrowed from another game board without that disconnect between how we were left with them in EP7 and how they're acting in EP8.

2. Bern's attitude. Before the Tea Party, we see Bern as sardonic, but pretty disinterested party. She mocks the entire proceedings, but isn't emotionally invested in it herself. The Tea Party shows how deep her loathing runs and how horrible her vengeance on Beatrice really is. Not only that, but she emerges from that utterly victorious. EP8 never addresses that and thus that's another level in which catharsis isn't reached by the reader.
Allowing her to exit the stage the way she did in EP7 without the Tea Party makes her role in EP8 as a "heartless but ultimately inconsequential" villain make more sense. She's doing these things for her own reason (Featherinne asking her to) and enjoys being mean, but it really is just a story to her.

3. There is a difference between leaving Beatrice dissolved into snow in a beautiful burial ceremony and leaving her on a lonely stage with her guts ripped out. Even if you think Beatrice is no longer around to witness that level of cruelty--and Bern's words do leave that in doubt--we, the readers witnessed all of it and want it to be addressed. There is satisfaction in Battler punching Bern in the face, but it doesn't allow catharsis for this situation, because that's not his motivation for doing it.
It's like watching a movie where the villain stabs a child in the heart and then escapes from the police, only to be hit by a car several weeks later in a completely unrelated incident. We want to see people punished for the crimes they commit, not just punished in general.
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Old 2011-01-05, 16:29   Link #243
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Since I dont want to read through the thread and get spoiled, where is the branch for the trick/magic end so I know where to save. And those are the only two endings right?
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Old 2011-01-05, 16:33   Link #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
Since I dont want to read through the thread and get spoiled, where is the branch for the trick/magic end so I know where to save. And those are the only two endings right?
You'll know when it's presented to you. Battler will talk about the two choices that Ange has to make and all that.
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Old 2011-01-05, 16:41   Link #245
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Ok cool. Back to reading w/o a dictionary (brainpowerrrrr)
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Old 2011-01-05, 17:22   Link #246
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post

Spoiler for Summary:

You missed an important point here, I think, although one most have guessed by now .

Spoiler for The truth of Bern's broken red text in ep. 7 revealed...:
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Old 2011-01-06, 06:56   Link #247
MeoTwister5
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Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.
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Old 2011-01-06, 07:55   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm finally done with Episode 8...
Thank you for saying this. I absolutely loved EP8 and have been rather frustrated with this internet hate spiral towards it. You just said everything I wanted to but just couldn't find the right way to express. This. Just. This.
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Old 2011-01-06, 09:53   Link #249
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.
Good work so far, I've just been pacing you for a while so I thought I'd chip in. I do think it's important to mention it here though if not in the summary since there seem to be a few folks in the hating-but-haven't-read-it-yet crowd who think this point is not answered by R07.
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Old 2011-01-06, 12:06   Link #250
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It's a little bit more ambiguous than that, considering Bern's motives in this episode. However, I also think it should have been included in any summary given for the episode.
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Old 2011-01-06, 13:54   Link #251
Rias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtleen View Post
Thank you for saying this. I absolutely loved EP8 and have been rather frustrated with this internet hate spiral towards it. You just said everything I wanted to but just couldn't find the right way to express. This. Just. This.
How to avoid the hate spiral? Accept the fact that Umineko is fantasy.
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Old 2011-01-06, 14:18   Link #252
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Or not be butthurt just because you didn't get your way. Either or.
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Old 2011-01-06, 14:38   Link #253
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The funniest part of all of this is that the "Battler is the ultimate narcissist and every character is just an aspect of his own ego" is now vaguely supportable by textual evidence. If you can accept nothing else, embrace the joke theory.
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Old 2011-01-06, 15:36   Link #254
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It is a fact, Battler is the Narcissist Sorcerer
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Old 2011-01-06, 22:38   Link #255
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Battlertrice was true the whole time.
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:01   Link #256
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I can't wait for the English translation.
Just one question if it is Battler I thought one of the rules were that the detective couldn't be the culprit.
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:30   Link #257
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He isn't.

Moreover, Ange's pretty much the detective in EP8 anyway.
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:34   Link #258
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Oh okay. This story is good but I guess I have to wait for the english patch, anymore digging now makes it more confusing.
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Old 2011-01-07, 01:33   Link #259
MeoTwister5
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Short update for now. Will continue later.

Spoiler for Summaries:


I'll end part III page here. Next up will be the Battle of the Golden Land (or the catbox if you want to call it).
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Old 2011-01-07, 05:20   Link #260
Ayu-ayu
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Finished. Has anyone posted the "underwater" scroll (and/or translation) from the scene with Beato and Battler in the boat? I thought I saw it somewhere but heck if I can find it lately.

I think I played the larger chunk of it all day today. I'm pretty happy with it overall and am looking forward to playing Tsubasa later. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with the mystery elements as-is (yeah, still want that peek into the cat-box or need to work it out more), but the conclusion still works for me and certainly was satisfying from the fantasy angle at least from my perspective. It's been a heck of a ride.

Spoiler for random quotes I noted today:
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