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Old 2011-01-06, 17:00   Link #21341
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Another example I can make is the Dark Tower. Stephen King didn't really want to write an ending that would explain what Roland finds at the end of his journey. He made it quite clear. The book in his mind was supposed to end without a proper explanation. However probably because he already knew that his readers would be pissed about that, and maybe under his editor pressure, he ended up writing an ending, and it wasn't anything spectacular of course.
An interesting - and strangely enough, on-topic - point about this: King includes a meta-fictional passage near the end of Roland's journey advising you to actually stop following Roland before you find out what he's about to find out. The author is actually warning you not to trust himself, basically... of course it makes a degree more sense in that King might have been dissatisfied with the ending, and it's something of a taunt because of course you're going to keep reading especially after you were told not to... unfortunately, it basically turns out you should've stopped. Whoops.
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Old 2011-01-06, 17:01   Link #21342
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well Ssol, but you got Featherinne's avatar, didn't Featherinne herself said that she wanted to see her "truth" being finalized in a game?
Ah yeah, Featherinne. She ended up being an important character, right? Even though she wasn't Asumu.

I thought it was funny how she calmly frooze time, recited Lambda's moves as if she wrote them herself, and then decided how the scene would play out. Pretty unfavorable to Lambda, no?

Lamda: ...mons... ster...
Featherinne: "monster" is one way of giving me praise. kukukuku hahahahaha!
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway part this stuff... I wonder....
Will Ryuukishi actually manage to never answer the many questions left unanswered?
Unfortunately, probably not.

I hope that stays true to the story he wanted to convey. If he never wanted to give definite answers who are we to demand them? Are we the goats?
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Old 2011-01-06, 17:11   Link #21343
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I think the problem is the execution of an unsolved mystery and its ending. Umineko has an ending for now, but not a satisfying one. "More people would be happy for the truth of an murder mystery to remain sealed away" just isn't realistic or believable in my books.

In a certain Nukui Tokurou's mystery novel, the mystery is also unsolved at the end. However, it depicts people feeling helpless, frustrated, and being in despair when they reach that conclusion. It's a realistic description of how unfair and frustrating the world is, when it reaches that state.

By showing and constantly proving that the truth is better sealed away, the only people can accept that (beside hardcore fans) are:

Ange - who actually have seen the truth and ran away from it.
Ikuko - suspected to be the mastermind.
People in golden land - people became fantasy and lives forever as an result.

However, realistically, that just violates people's lives. It's like saying, "oh, it's better if we don't find that killer. No need to care about the will of these people since they are dead already."


And insulting the readers definitely does not help the ending.
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Old 2011-01-06, 17:28   Link #21344
Renall
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
I think the problem is the execution of an unsolved mystery and its ending. Umineko has an ending for now, but not a satisfying one. "More people would be happy for the truth of an murder mystery to remain sealed away" just isn't realistic or believable in my books.
It's believable, but it's also hardly the only position a person could reach. If the author intends to sell us on a conclusion (that is, he's advancing this as a moral), he didn't do very well. If he's just trying to analyze the way people cope with the situation, he didn't give fair time to alternatives. That's not to say it didn't play out precisely as he intended it though. You certainly don't have to agree with the moral of a story.
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Old 2011-01-06, 17:34   Link #21345
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
That's Schrodinger's paradox for you: a bunch of conflicting theories are hidden within the box known as Rokkenjima, which is forever closed, allowing all these accounts to coexist regardless of their irreconcilability with one another. That is, of course, until one chooses to open the box...

They really weren't kidding when they said Rokkenjima was such a box way back when.
I'd just like to note that Schrodinger himself referred to the box experiment as "ridiculous."

The purpose of the experiment was to show just how ridiculous it was.

Quote:
If he never wanted to give definite answers who are we to demand them?
We are his readers.

Quote:
I'd be very surprised if he could. History teaches me that many authors who tried this in the past had to yield the the readers' requests.

For example, thanx to Will (the user not the character) I came to know about a short story called "the mysterious card".
The whole story revolves around this mysterious card with something written in French on it that would cause several people to react in an inexplicable manner. The main character, who can't read French, becomes therefore obsessed by it and tries to find out what's the meaning of those French words, but to no avail, because everyone that read them becomes shocked and refuses to tell him.

This story had a great impact on the public because of the tension that it could create, but at the same time it made everyone become extremely curious about the content of the message. The problem is that logically speaking there is really nothing that could explain in a satisfying manner all those reactions, and the story was never meant to give an answer.

In the end the author was somehow forced to write another story that would finally unveil the mystery.
The problem is... it sucked. And I read it, it really sucks. it didn't really satisfy anyone. It sucked so much that another author decided to write his own solution.
I was trying so very much to forget this existed. Argh. This was Umineko before Umineko. We can only hope that someone will pull a Edward D. Hoch on us. For the sake of comparison with Umineko, I'm posting both the story and the sequel here.

I'm almost certain they are past their copyright date, so it's fine to post them here.

Original story: http://everything2.com/title/The+Mysterious+Card

Sequel: http://everything2.com/title/The+Mys...+Card+Unveiled

They are very short(together, they don't add up to 50 pages) so give it a read.

Hope you liked that sneak peak into the future when Ryuukishi reveals the one truth in Rei. Which I'm almost certain he will.
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Old 2011-01-06, 17:56   Link #21346
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Hope you liked that sneak peak into the future when Ryuukishi reveals the one truth in Rei. Which I'm almost certain he will.
Umineko Rei? ... Don't you mean

Spoiler for Dum dee dum:

?

I'm just calling it.
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-01-06, 18:01   Link #21347
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The third story was "The Spy and the Mysterious Card", by Edward D. Hoch. (Check through back issues of Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine at your local library if you want to read it.)

And I don't think the question is "Can Ryu think of a solution?", it's "Did Ryu have a solution in mind before he wrote things initially?"

"The Mysterious Card" was written without a solution in mind, and the author's attempts to kludge one in after the fact demonstrate that. (See also _Twin Peaks_.)


On the other hand, "The Lady and the Tiger" (there's a sequel "The Discourager of Hesitancy") doesn't seem to have the same problems over its ambiguous ending. OTOH, the story is perfectly comprehensible on its own.
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Old 2011-01-06, 18:17   Link #21348
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The point of "The Lady and the Tiger" is to gauge what the reader thinks the resolution would be. It's as much thought experiment as story.

Umineko trying to do this would not be pleasant, in my mind.
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Old 2011-01-06, 18:36   Link #21349
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Umineko trying to do this would not be pleasant, in my mind.
Oh god, it wouldn't even be funny.
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Old 2011-01-06, 18:48   Link #21350
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
By showing and constantly proving that the truth is better sealed away, the only people can accept that (beside hardcore fans) are:

Ange - who actually have seen the truth and ran away from it.
Ikuko - suspected to be the mastermind.
People in golden land - people became fantasy and lives forever as an result.

However, realistically, that just violates people's lives. It's like saying, "oh, it's better if we don't find that killer. No need to care about the will of these people since they are dead already."
Then who can't accept that anyway? The ones who want to know the truth just because of curiosity? I really doubt that they care about the will of the dead.
Who is the ones violating people's lives here? The ones who want to read Eva's diary or the ones who doesn't want to publicize it?
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Old 2011-01-06, 19:09   Link #21351
witchfan
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I personally find appeals to morality quite weak when it comes to this story. I don't have any reason to care about intruding the lives of fictional characters, and if Ryukishi wanted to convince me (and the rest of the readers) to care, he wasn't very successful. Besides, if that was the point he was trying to make, "Without Love, it cannot be seen" are terrible arc words (how about "With Love, it cannot be seen").

I mean, I know how everyone hates Bern for being a nasty troll, but she's really just having fun with fiction here.*

It would be fine if he was trying to make a philosophical point about tragedy in general, but I don't really feel this from Umineko. Throughout the tale, we've always been talking about the tragedy, the culprit. It's way too specific to have any sort of generalisable value.

*e- at the very least, to her, a witch who can travel between kakera, a specific kakera is no more than fiction.

Last edited by witchfan; 2011-01-06 at 19:26.
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Old 2011-01-06, 19:52   Link #21352
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
*snip*
Actually, if Rei IS Land of the Golden Witch I expect it to be labeled 'Episode 3'.

I heard something about Beatrice bringing up Land in Ep8, or was that a fake spoiler?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
An interesting - and strangely enough, on-topic - point about this: King includes a meta-fictional passage near the end of Roland's journey advising you to actually stop following Roland before you find out what he's about to find out. The author is actually warning you not to trust himself, basically... of course it makes a degree more sense in that King might have been dissatisfied with the ending, and it's something of a taunt because of course you're going to keep reading especially after you were told not to... unfortunately, it basically turns out you should've stopped. Whoops.
Honestly, now Umineko really kind of reminds me of that series, except that there's very little I can actually ENJOY about The Dark Tower given that it's drenched in King's metaphorical spunk. (Just like all his books, ho ho ho.)

I do wish Ryukishi had included something of that nature, (especially considering that Umineko is a game, not a book) such as a final choice about "opening the box" or not.
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Old 2011-01-06, 20:04   Link #21353
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, if Rei IS Land of the Golden Witch I expect it to be labeled 'Episode 3'.

I heard something about Beatrice bringing up Land in Ep8, or was that a fake spoiler?
It shouldn't. When Ange mentioned the letters in the bottle to Beatrice, she sad she found it sad that only two made it to the shore and that "Land," her masterpiece, didn't reach the public was a pity.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I do wish Ryukishi had included something of that nature, (especially considering that Umineko is a game, not a book) such as a final choice about "opening the box" or not.
Well, you can possibly reach a truth, even if it wasn't disclosed, I think. There are enough factors:

- Yasu = Beatrice (we also know her background and apparent motive)
- There's a big hint about her plan being nothing more than a play, which was quite possibly hijacked
- We also have Rudolph and Kyrie as tentative culprits (I'm going by Ange's reaction to the truth here)

So, if you piece all of this together, you can end up, I believe, with a rather solid theory. Of course, you have nothing to compare it with, and know if you're right. However, I think that's better than nothing, and somewhat satisfying.
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Old 2011-01-06, 22:48   Link #21354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi
And that's, like, better? More satisfying? Less insulting to a general fan of the work?
Please don't put fucking words in my mouth. I'm just correcting a factual inaccuracy.

And yes, I do find ambiguity preferable to a fucking retarded, contradictory, plot-hole filled answer. Atleast with the ambiguous answer I can imagine that the answer is something better.

Quote:
Um...sorry, but what's /2ch/ and /jp/? o_o I just gathered the Rudolf and Kyrie as the true culprits information from this forum so I thought it was true...?
A lot of spoilers going around are people quoting stuff they read on OTHER forums by people who either didn't play the game or made fake screenshots or whatever. It's a mess.
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Old 2011-01-06, 22:53   Link #21355
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Just curious but how accurate is the stuff they put up in 2ch and /jp/ anyway? I usually stay the hell away unless I have to.
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Old 2011-01-06, 23:02   Link #21356
Used Can
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Please don't put fucking words in my mouth. I'm just correcting a factual inaccuracy.
I believe you need a chill pill. I don't think he, or anyone else, is putting words in your mouth. I think he was just asking if not having an answer was better than having one.

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Just curious but how accurate is the stuff they put up in 2ch and /jp/ anyway? I usually stay the hell away unless I have to.
2ch cannot be fully trusted during the first few days unless you know the poster - or unless he provides evidence he has the SN. Other than that, by now, it should be reliable.

As for /jp/, some of them do speak Japanese, and they do post useful stuff. However, other users just post things they've misinterpreted from 2ch (or some other sites), their own fake spoilers or just wrong understanding of actual spoilers. Info from Animesuki and other forums also tends to end up there.
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Old 2011-01-06, 23:29   Link #21357
Quest 64
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In a solution of 1-4 episodes there is nothing difficult, it is enough to know that
Spoiler for Something like X:

Chiru episodes have other construction, other Game Masters.
Spoiler for EP5-6:
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:08   Link #21358
ClannadDango
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What did Featherinne do to Lambda?

Was there a Tea Party or ??? for EP8?
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:28   Link #21359
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Episode 6 more confused, Erika now unknown element, no red about her role as corpse/human (ye she's witch now). It's something like "Erika, Shannon, Yasu (elder Beatrice) and Kanon shares roles and cost 2 people, even they different persons". Again no much details, very hard to weave theory which give 100% answers to all games.
This is incorrect. There are reds that mention Erika by name.

Yes, EP8 has both a Tea Party and an ????. Featherine apparently killed Lambda, then brought her back for trolololol.
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Old 2011-01-07, 00:37   Link #21360
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Featherine killed Lambda? Wow she must be powerful! I though she was just a sleepy watcher on the slidelines but I guess she also have hidden motives like Bern.

Wait how did she kill Lambda? Lambda was formerly the most powerful witch in the Umineko universe.
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