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Old 2011-01-07, 02:09   Link #21361
Kylon99
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I happen to be RIGHT on the line which talks about Featherine, so I thought I would reply here. This is from the very last chapter of EP8, before the Tea Party.

Spoiler for EP8 Spoilers for Featherine:
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Old 2011-01-07, 02:46   Link #21362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I happen to be RIGHT on the line which talks about Featherine, so I thought I would reply here. This is from the very last chapter of EP8, before the Tea Party.

Spoiler for EP8 Spoilers for Featherine:
Okay thanks! That actually made a lot of sense. I was having a metaphysical discussion with my mentor and unrelated to Umineko he discussed how the most powerful beings of a plane fear of moving on to higher plane as they are fearful of the unknown. So that makes a lot of sense when I related this to Umineko.
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Old 2011-01-07, 03:33   Link #21363
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That, and "Strongest Witch in the Universe" seems to be a title traded around through winning and losing games. It's implied and speculated that Higurashi was a game of Lambda VS Featherine, and Rika's timeloop stuff was Featherine abandoning the game (which means she "loses"). So if she was ever "Strongest Witch in the Universe", she'd of forfeit the title by now.
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Old 2011-01-07, 07:55   Link #21364
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I once made a theory that lambda and featherine had played another game and it was the one in which she was thrown into a logic erroc.Because i wonder.Why is lambda still a child and not the adult Miyo??Since featherine is considered a god i was curious about the scene when little miyo challenged god and won!!!!!I wonder if that was when she was turned into a witch by beating featherine in some kind of game and thus will always be a kid.Remember she was already a witch when higurashi took place.
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Old 2011-01-07, 09:34   Link #21365
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It shouldn't. When Ange mentioned the letters in the bottle to Beatrice, she sad she found it sad that only two made it to the shore and that "Land," her masterpiece, didn't reach the public was a pity.
How convenient that the most important and best work is the one we've never read.

Maybe Beatrice was just kidding and Land of the Golden Witch is a crudely drawn flipbook of a cartoon seagull with "BY THE WAY, YASU IS BEATRICE" on the last page.
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Old 2011-01-07, 10:21   Link #21366
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How convenient that the most important and best work is the one we've never read.
Well, he can still release 'Land' in the form of Umineko Rei (or as I would like as a title うみねこのなく頃に酷 ).
And it's not like we're not used to 07th Expansion actually releasing further stuff on and on and on...hadn't Umineko become so popular with his fangroup, I think they would still be releasing additional chapters for Higurashi.

I hope he knows where to stop with Umineko, because actually the only thing we really need is the content of the 一成る真実の書 and that's it. The ending of EP8 in itself was fine, but it drew out so many things that were unimportant, while leaving some other things aside...it's like as if Matsuribayashi didn't get the Kakera Asobi in the beginning (and I have to admit I think it sucked apart from that).

Spoiler for Higurashi Rei:
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Old 2011-01-07, 11:07   Link #21367
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It's believable, but it's also hardly the only position a person could reach. If the author intends to sell us on a conclusion (that is, he's advancing this as a moral), he didn't do very well. If he's just trying to analyze the way people cope with the situation, he didn't give fair time to alternatives. That's not to say it didn't play out precisely as he intended it though. You certainly don't have to agree with the moral of a story.
I agree with this. I actually liked how ep 7 set up for it, but I feel ep 8 dropped the ball on executing this concept. I'm sure it's what he was going for, he just managed it poorly. Although honestly the only strong argument I have is the pointless implication of Umineko being a standard mystery. If he hadn't implied that I think this whole thing would have been perfectly fine as is.
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Old 2011-01-07, 11:39   Link #21368
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
Featherine killed Lambda? Wow she must be powerful! I though she was just a sleepy watcher on the slidelines but I guess she also have hidden motives like Bern.

Wait how did she kill Lambda? Lambda was formerly the most powerful witch in the Umineko universe.
I believe she turned Lambda into a cake.
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Old 2011-01-07, 11:54   Link #21369
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Quote:
I once made a theory that lambda and featherine had played another game and it was the one in which she was thrown into a logic erroc.Because i wonder.Why is lambda still a child and not the adult Miyo??Since featherine is considered a god i was curious about the scene when little miyo challenged god and won!!!!!I wonder if that was when she was turned into a witch by beating featherine in some kind of game and thus will always be a kid.Remember she was already a witch when higurashi took place.
Does age mean anything to witches? Six years becomes a thousand years, and they can live the same two days for all eternity. They probably look the ages they do because they WANT to look that age. They're like gods that can take any shape.

Quote:
How convenient that the most important and best work is the one we've never read.

Maybe Beatrice was just kidding and Land of the Golden Witch is a crudely drawn flipbook of a cartoon seagull with "BY THE WAY, YASU IS BEATRICE" on the last page.
Watch Land of the Golden Witch be so amazing that everyone in the fandom is utterly and totally pleased and forgives him for every flaw he's ever made. Just because you tried to call otherwise.

Quote:
I believe she turned Lambda into a cake.
I believe that's total crap.
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Old 2011-01-07, 12:32   Link #21370
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How convenient that the most important and best work is the one we've never read.
Hey, it's not like he hasn't mentioned Land before and how it was his favorite episode.

Anyone wanna find that interview or should I look for it myself?
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Old 2011-01-07, 12:52   Link #21371
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Did he actually say so?

This sounds new to me. I never had the impression that Land was so great in his eyes.
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Old 2011-01-07, 13:05   Link #21372
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Yea, he did say such. Of course, that interview is from back when he was still writing EP4, I think, but since Beato apparently still has this opinion...I don't know.
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Old 2011-01-07, 13:46   Link #21373
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I think Land of the Golden Witch was supposed to be EP3 originally, even harder that EP2. Ryukishi ended up putting some stuff he meant to save to Chiru in EP3 (like explaining the catbox nature of Rokkenjima) and redoing the thing. He apparently feared people would find it too incomprehensible.

If he's so proud of Land, he should put it as part of "Rei" if he plans on doing one (I recall Tsubasa is already When they cry 4+, but there's probably no problem being another). I always thought the interval from EP7 to the recent Comiket was too short for him to produce an episode to answer everything, I actually suspected that When they cry 5 might start before EP8 is released when they announced a new section on their site (which turned out to be Ougon). Now he has more than half a year to write an Answer arc (there really hasn't been an answer arc, just core arcs) for Umineko if he wishes, and maybe include Land as a bonus Episode with it (Umineko no Naku Koro ni Kai?). Or maybe combining them, so Land becomes the answer arc. That doesn't preserve the mystery though, but it's not like we don't know enough about the core to start suspecting certain people.

I really shouldn't be here as I have not read EP7-8, but just to give my thoughts. It does seem like Ryukishi cared about Land, for EP2 was the last one written by "Beatrice" and the rest by Itouikukuro and Tohya. EP6 implies they're the same person, right? I have found it strange though, that while the writer changed for EP3-4, they were still game mastered by Beatrice, which makes me to believe Itouikukuro has more to do with Beatrice than Tohya. I heard EP8 had something more about Itouikukuro, but I certainly hope not to spoil everything. And it might be an author's whim after all.
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Old 2011-01-07, 14:09   Link #21374
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Well, if Land was the "third message bottle," you could call it the "true ep3." The questions about Land are manifold, of course:
  • What format does it take? Ep1 and ep2 are very different stories, even if Legend and Turn may or may not be.
  • How much of it did Ryukishi actually write before making changes? Did he actually write any of Land, or just plan to, or did he make Land up entirely?
  • What was his intention for Land that it couldn't fulfill as ep3, thus causing him to write ep3, and what did ep3 do that Land couldn't?
  • How much of Land was cannibalized, if any, to create ep3 and subsequent episodes? It may not be all that impressive if it just has bits and pieces that came up later anyway.
  • Why is Land so important? What does it tell us that Banquet and beyond (the "Tohya Episodes") don't? Is it anything we can only learn from Land in whatever format it took?
  • If Land is so good, why did he stop writing it and go with Banquet? Why don't we know what it contains? Why didn't he plan to release what he had of it? Is he considering doing so for Umineko Rei, if that comes to pass?
  • Is there any actual value in revealing what's in Land at this point? If not, why talk about it again? If so, where is it or when is it coming?
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Old 2011-01-07, 15:51   Link #21375
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From an interview, we do know Ryukishi originally planned a different EP3. He mentioned EP3 was supposed to be a lot harder (he planned to reveal the 'catbox' in the 5th episode, for example). His original idea may or may not have been "Land".
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Old 2011-01-07, 15:55   Link #21376
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From an interview, we do know Ryukishi originally planned a different EP3. He mentioned EP3 was supposed to be a lot harder (he planned to reveal the 'catbox' in the 5th episode, for example). His original idea may or may not have been "Land".
That's how I remember it. I'm still very skeptical of this idea that "Land" was the best episode he ever made. If someone can find the interview please link it.

Besides, it was supposed to be the third episode, and it was supposed to be very hard.
So there's really no need to think it would have made us look at the whole series in a different perspective. For what concerns the "answers issue", it would be practically irrelevant.

Quote:
Is there any actual value in revealing what's in Land at this point? If not, why talk about it again? If so, where is it or when is it coming?
Most probably not, because the most important parts were definitely cannibalized by other episodes. We know that a good chunk of it went to EP6
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Old 2011-01-07, 16:00   Link #21377
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How much of it he actually made is still pretty relevant. If it was going to be super hard, what was it that made it difficult? Was it an ep5/ep6 style thing? It seems strange that he would give up on a difficulty increase when people were beginning to preempt him (on e.g. the Kinzo thing) which would make me want to throw out something harder to really perplex them.

But I'm skeptical whether Land ever really existed as anything more than an idea.
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Old 2011-01-07, 16:20   Link #21378
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If I remember correctly, he said he sets the difficulty of an episode based on the general response of the community. EP2 made a lot of people flustered because of the magic oddities, so he explained them in EP3. I'm not sure the EP3 he had in mind was a lot different from "our" EP3, just probably with less things explained. That said, the question of whether "Land" is related to EP3 at all, is still relevant.
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Old 2011-01-07, 16:38   Link #21379
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Well, now I'm wondering if all that stuff in Episode 6 about message bottle forgeries and different authors was actually some kind of metaphor for Ryukishi deviating from whatever he had planned out after the first few Episodes. Assuming it ever happened, of course.
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Old 2011-01-07, 16:59   Link #21380
Jan-Poo
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How much of it he actually made is still pretty relevant. If it was going to be super hard, what was it that made it difficult? Was it an ep5/ep6 style thing? It seems strange that he would give up on a difficulty increase when people were beginning to preempt him (on e.g. the Kinzo thing) which would make me want to throw out something harder to really perplex them.

But I'm skeptical whether Land ever really existed as anything more than an idea.
I wasn't there when EP2 was released but according to what Ryuukishi said, most people had already given up to fantasy due to the many odd things that EP2 showed.

Well I think that's pretty much what happened during the anime season. You should remember that, and how difficult it was to make them understand the concept of "catbox".


From what I understood, EP3 was supposed to be even more "magical" than EP2 without any kind of input about unreliable perspectives and the concept of fake scenes.

You must put yourself in Ryuukishi's perspective. When he talks about difficulty you probably think about murder cases and tricks. I think he's actually talking about the interpretation of the general events.

After all it seems that's the only thing that matters in umineko, and the serial murder is just something in the background.
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