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Old 2011-01-08, 21:42   Link #421
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
oh the coin ends as a hole in the ground. No i might agree with Salt on this one. That coins movement are natural effects even after electricity is gone. But he can't blame it one the authors plotline since he never actually put touma in that situation. BLAME THE RAILGUN MANGA!!

The movement is like accelerators power his ability is changing the vector of objects once they move the are moving naturally with no supernatural power moving them anymore.
However, it seems that Mikoto's Railgun is still under her influence (Electricity), that would support my theory.

Perhaps this is the secret in creating super powerful railguns? No wonder the outside world have weaker technology! They have been getting it all wrong!

You know, technically we have never seen block one of Accelerator's I-beams... But Touma did negate a wall of earth created by his vector controlled Black wings...
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Old 2011-01-08, 21:51   Link #422
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
However, it seems that Mikoto's Railgun is still under her influence (Electricity), that would support my theory.

Perhaps this is the secret in creating super powerful railguns? No wonder the outside world have weaker technology! They have been getting it all wrong!
lets try another example.

Stiyl is pissed at touma for unknown reasons. Stiyl gets a metal ball out of nowhere. Stiyl puts magic fire on it and throws it at touma. touma gets rid of supernatural fire but his hand burns since the natural schorching metal on the ball cant be negated.

he gets rid of supernatural lightning but the natural laws of physics and heat still stay.

Now i trust the author of the novels since he never really exaggerates some stuff based on the real world. If this railgun situation were to happen and touma negated it unscathed by the coin, he would give an exact reason why
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Old 2011-01-08, 22:08   Link #423
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
lets try another example.

Stiyl is pissed at touma for unknown reasons. Stiyl gets a metal ball out of nowhere. Stiyl puts magic fire on it and throws it at touma. touma gets rid of supernatural fire but his hand burns since the natural schorching metal on the ball cant be negated.

he gets rid of supernatural lightning but the natural laws of physics and heat still stay.

Going by my theory, the immediate effect of the fire, which is the heat it produces that gets transferred into the metal ball, would be negated as well. But if the metal ball gets melted by that heat, it wouldn't be restored.

Oh, and if Stiyl somehow had launched that metal ball instead of throwing it manually, yup the forces that's produced gets negated too.

Why do I say this? Because Touma was never hurt by Stiyl's fire, which would imply that the heat produce from the flames were also negated upon touching his hand- otherwise it would definitely burn the skin.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:04   Link #424
tsunade666
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its 5000 degrees Celsius. Metal are like butter compare to it but Touma is unharmed by the extreme heat. I can still see that Mikoto's railgun with her power acting on it when she fires the railgun so it will be cancel and even the force produced by the power. She didn't throw it manually. She used her ability to throw it. It's different from Accelerator which only change up the direction of vector and powered it up or concentrate it. Two things are different because their is initial power in Accelerator and Mikoto's attack doesn't had that.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:17   Link #425
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
It's different from Accelerator which only change up the direction of vector and powered it up or concentrate it. Two things are different because their is initial power in Accelerator and Mikoto's attack doesn't had that.
If by vectors, Accelerator can also manipulate not only the direction but the magnitude (Force) as well, then I don't see why the 'mysterious' force that he produce can't be negated.

The only reason I can think of that would fit into my theory is that he's transferring an existing, naturally occuring force into those objects. Say for example, the rotation of the Earth? I don't know... If Imagine Breaker can negate the transfer, would the force simply disappear? Return back to origin? Or just carry on?
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:21   Link #426
I_am_Kami
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so u guys r saying that the movement of the coin is ONLY because of the electricity and because thats the only reason why its moving it'll will stop.

to make it simple

electric power=power source

or as another example a solar power car.

sun=power
car=coin

once sun is gone car stops.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:23   Link #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
I just feel he is being vague where he shouldn't be, among other issues I have with his story telling.

It started of so well too. I will probably be dropping this anime, I have 3-4 ep backlogged now but can't be assed to watch them.
wait whats wrong with his story telling?
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:34   Link #428
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
so u guys r saying that the movement of the coin is ONLY because of the electricity and because thats the only reason why its moving it'll will stop.

to make it simple

electric power=power source

or as another example a solar power car.

sun=power
car=coin

once sun is gone car stops.
It's the only way that it would explain it.

Otherwise okay look, magnetism is another application or product of her electricity right? If Imagine Breaker doesn't negate the immediate effects like heat or in this case magnetism, then even Mikoto's Iron Sand whip would slice right through him because "The magnetic forces produce from the supernatural electricity is natural physics", and so it's rotation/vibration force would still exist.

Which we know isn't the case, Imagine Breaker protected Touma just fine.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:38   Link #429
I_am_Kami
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It's the only way that it would explain it.

Otherwise okay look, magnetism is another application or product of her electricity right? If Imagine Breaker doesn't negate the immediate effects like heat or in this case magnetism, then even Mikoto's Iron Sand whip would slice right through him because "The magnetic forces produce from the supernatural electricity is natural physics", and so it's rotation force would still exist.

Which we know isn't the case.
wait thats different, she can control that but the movement of the coin is out of her hands.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:42   Link #430
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
wait thats different, she can control that but the movement of the coin is out of her hands.
If it was a normal Railgun then yes, but Mikoto seem to be connected even after the Railgun had fired.

Case in point, the last episode of Railgun anime had her applying more force into an already launched Railgun.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:45   Link #431
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If it was a normal Railgun then yes, but Mikoto seem to be connected even after the Railgun had fired.

Case in point, the last episode of Railgun anime had her applying more force into an already launched Railgun.
again, we cant really depend on railgun its the reason we are having this discussion in the first place
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:45   Link #432
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but the force that make the coin move is a by product of her ability. Plus look at the coin itself or the when she fires the railgun. The line of electricity and the after effect of electricity in the path proves it. The line of electricity still revolves in the coin. It's different from your railgun in real world.

It will because the same as the iron sand. Turn into normal sand and disperse. But for railgun. It will just become normal coin.
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Old 2011-01-08, 23:55   Link #433
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
again, we cant really depend on railgun its the reason we are having this discussion in the first place
*Shrug*

Originally I didn't like the idea of Touma blocking Railguns, even if he had superhuman reflexes. The issue of the residue force would remain.

But then the topic of the Golem gets brought up and stuff like Stiyl's fire and what not...

Then I start to wonder, what if all those forces are actually considered supernatural themselves even though they sort of follow physics, then that would solve everything and suddenly stopping Railguns doesn't seem so Far-Fletch either...
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Old 2011-01-09, 00:06   Link #434
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
*Shrug*

Originally I didn't like the idea of Touma blocking Railguns, even if he had superhuman reflexes. The issue of the residue force would remain.

But then the topic of the Golem gets brought up and stuff like Stiyl's fire and what not...

Then I start to wonder, what if all those forces are actually considered supernatural themselves even though they sort of follow physics, then that would solve everything and suddenly stopping Railguns doesn't seem so Far-Fletch either...
the golem issue was easily solvable. Stiyls fire is the same. Tried looking on the wikia for info but no luck. Lets say that if something is in the state of supernatural it can be destroyed or negated. If its natural its screwed.

Mikotos coin is, in our pov since it hasn't been shown in the novels, able to be stopped since its heat and speed are in a state of supernatural since its controlled by the electricity and heated by it.

The coins physical change(science term) can't be changed though.

All in all Salt don't blame the author for something he did't do. He's a great author in my opinion since he is constant in releases and explains everything with pinpoint accuracy. Though being honest u should hang in there for the rest of the season cuz in my opinion it gets a bit more adult like near the end of this season.
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Old 2011-01-09, 02:01   Link #435
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Well, there are rumours that the author first wrote the series at 14, so yeah, that'll make him 21...
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Old 2011-01-09, 03:39   Link #436
Salt
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/sigh

After several pages of back and forth, we still can't nail down things precisely.
This is why I say his world's "rule set" lacks rigour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
i can understand why no one who knows the story might drop it.

Well if u give up the anime at least read the novels.
Lets say index anime will be like this.

...

dimension and he negated that movement. But if it was full moved then he cant stop it. Lets say a teleporter was attacking him and moved behind him and he touched them it wont put them back where they were but they cant teleport anymore.
It's a matter of patiences I suppose, but it's been draining since the end of accelerator's arc.

I appreciate your attempt to explain it, but it does not quite fix the problems I have with his "rule set".

The thing is I consider the movement of the coin an "after effect".
The force generated by the electricity is supernatural that I can accept. The speed/kinetic energy obtain from the acceleration is completely natural IMO.

It all boils down to what you consider an "after-effect", which seemed to be arbitrarily determined by the author to fit the plot. This is not what I consider "internally consistent".

This also isn't the only beef I have with the anime.
The lack of character development of Touma and Index after the first arc.
Touma being uninteresting...

PS:
I kind of feel like an ass ratting on people favourite show with my complaining all the time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
...No, it's a summary of my explanation.

Supernatural Ability (Railgun), Immediate effects (Forces produce, electricity), Secondary result (A hole in the ground)

The first two are negatable.
You have used the above explanation many times.
But never gave an exactly definition, nor a way to determine, as to what is considered "Immediate effects" and what is a "Secondary result".

The author basically assigns "events" to either category base on what he feels is convenient for the plot, with no consistent rule delineating the 2 categories - and this is what I meant by "vague; the rule is vague and poorly defined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
Well, there are rumours that the author first wrote the series at 14, so yeah, that'll make him 21...
It would explain his writing...

I love it for the character design and creative setting but ...


@ALL

To add on to what I said, let's me put it this way :
If Misaka turned off her power somewhere between the moment it leaves her hand and before it hit's Touma's, the coin will still be moving.
Think a car, just because you take your foot of the accelerator doesn't mean the car just stops immediately.
Misaka's ability is to "step on the accelerator" via her control of electricity, because that is technically what electricity in a railgun does, accelerate the projectile.
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Last edited by Salt; 2011-01-09 at 04:53.
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Old 2011-01-09, 10:42   Link #437
Miraluka
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Touma did negate all Mikoto's attack for 2 hours, quoting Vol. 1, Chapter 1, part 5:
Quote:
Yesterday, Kamijou used his right hand to block every single one of Mikotoís attacks, including the "Railgun", a "whip sword" formed by iron sand, a powerful electromagnetic pulse that targets the organs, and the final move: real "lightning".

But every single move was unable to hurt Kamijou.
Quote:

Kamijou can block all of Mikotoís attacks casually, but Mikoto doesnít have a clue of what Kamijouís "power" is. Actually, Mikotoís full of an "unknown fear" regarding Kamijou.

Itís expected that Mikoto would be afraid, since Kamijou Touma is the man who managed to block Mikotoís barrage of attacks for over two hours and remain unharmed.
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Old 2011-01-09, 10:48   Link #438
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
/sigh

After several pages of back and forth, we still can't nail down things precisely.
This is why I say his world's "rule set" lacks rigour.



It's a matter of patiences I suppose, but it's been draining since the end of accelerator's arc.

I appreciate your attempt to explain it, but it does not quite fix the problems I have with his "rule set".

The thing is I consider the movement of the coin an "after effect".
The force generated by the electricity is supernatural that I can accept. The speed/kinetic energy obtain from the acceleration is completely natural IMO.

It all boils down to what you consider an "after-effect", which seemed to be arbitrarily determined by the author to fit the plot. This is not what I consider "internally consistent".

This also isn't the only beef I have with the anime.
The lack of character development of Touma and Index after the first arc.
Touma being uninteresting...

PS:
I kind of feel like an ass ratting on people favourite show with my complaining all the time too.



You have used the above explanation many times.
But never gave an exactly definition, nor a way to determine, as to what is considered "Immediate effects" and what is a "Secondary result".

The author basically assigns "events" to either category base on what he feels is convenient for the plot, with no consistent rule delineating the 2 categories - and this is what I meant by "vague; the rule is vague and poorly defined.



It would explain his writing...

I love it for the character design and creative setting but ...


@ALL

To add on to what I said, let's me put it this way :
If Misaka turned off her power somewhere between the moment it leaves her hand and before it hit's Touma's, the coin will still be moving.
Think a car, just because you take your foot of the accelerator doesn't mean the car just stops immediately.
Misaka's ability is to "step on the accelerator" via her control of electricity, because that is technically what electricity in a railgun does, accelerate the projectile.
wait, u besides the super long post u didn't read the short final post i put. The author hasn't put touma in the situation where he stops a railgun. Even in the LN novels, which is the true story doesn't have that "misaka shoots a railgun directly at touma." That, as i said was from the mangaka who made "to aru kagaku no railgu
Story & Art: Motoi Fuyukawa
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Old 2011-01-09, 11:59   Link #439
Salt
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Quote:
However, Kamijou's Imagine Breaker only worked on the power of strange talents. To put it simply, it protected him from an ESP's fireball, but it couldn't protect him from the fragments of concrete that the fireball sent.
This small fragmentment of your post basically tells me he didn't think things though.

As I said to chao, the author doesn't delineate between supernatural/immediate effects (which can be cancelled) and "after" effects (which can't be cancelled) in any way that can considered consistent.

In fact the line is arbitrarily determined to suit the plot.

What can I say, if a work doesn't grab me, I'm not going to fight it.
Logical inconsistencies like this bug the hell out of me, and in this case "cheapens" things to some extend. Not to mention this isn't the only problem I have with the work.

As I said, I also don't want to keep crapping on the fun of people who do enjoy the show.
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Old 2011-01-09, 14:19   Link #440
Zakoo
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As it was said, in the original novel, Touma never stopped a railgun.

And as far as I saw in the anime and read the novel . The 'line' you're talking about is respected. Touma couldn't block the sringers Accelerator sent at him with Vector Control. Whether he used his power to accelerate his speed or increase its momentum, Touma knew ( let's say he isn't dumb huh? ) the kynetic energy gained wouldn't disappear. That's why he 'dodged' them and not used his power. Just like he didn't destroyed the golem because the stone would fall on him since they are real

As for the railgun. For physics reasons, I don't see IB blocking a Railgun. The electromagnetical field is situated in Mikoto's hand and is only used as a trigger. Once threw, she can't interfer with the coin anymore. but whatever.

*I didn't follow all the discussion. I only answer after reading the page more or less.
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