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Old 2011-01-05, 16:39   Link #9241
Kyral
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You have to remember what a summon is. The creature exists in the dimensional sea on a planet, and summoning is just teleporting it here. So basically all Precia did was teleport her robots in from wherever they were sitting on standby.
Yes but in my book that makes it more likley that they were Precia powered and not battery powered as you suggested it.
Precia was a SS-rank mage that tapped into the power of nine Jewel Seeds, so utilizing an army of summond robots should be not much of a problem, espacially as she did not do much of the fighting herself.
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Old 2011-01-05, 17:05   Link #9242
Keroko
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My memory of S1 is faulty, but weren't the robots disabled when Yuuno and Nanoha sealed the ship's reactor?
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Old 2011-01-05, 18:35   Link #9243
Kyral
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Checked it up right now and it's hard to tell... they are not shown anymore after the reactor was destroyed...
In the movie too... the last we see are a bunch of broken onces with Nanoha and Yuuno in the middle.
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Old 2011-01-05, 21:18   Link #9244
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
They could have just gotten a bit lucky, too. Say, perhaps there is a 50/50 chance of regeneration. And it was also said it was because they were so young, too, that they managed to recover.

In that case, the linker core was being absorbed into a computer, and being translated into pages (ie, data). The process was reversed for the knights, but it could be that easy because the knights are programs.

I did have a fic where Shamal was the one to original create the linker core removal process, but it was a medical technique to repair it, and then place it back in the body.
Could be, but they're nothing directly conflicting right? The wiki (if it's reliable) said that "A mage's Linker Core can be forcibly removed from their bodies but it apparently regenerates with time." So until exceptions appear...


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Ongoing costs. Right now, cartridges seemed to be limited to Aces mainly, if they want it. You're talking expanding that to the thousands of normal red shirt mages who carry that standard staff. That's going to greatly enhance costs.

But ammo costs are not trivial, and you're talking about adding a ton to the budget. The US's military budget easily dwarfs the next biggest military budgets combined, so the US is a special case in which we get most of the military stuff we want. Usually, it's not quite like that.
I would think that if they can waste money with bad plans like providing a 'make-up' enemy with the funds he needs to build his own private army, they could come up with the cash to cough up something like this. In fact it's all the more reason why they should get their act together.

At worst, sign a contract with a private supplier, or just tax people higher.

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So you're talking about making it much weaker? That would kinda defeat the purpose of giving them cartridges. If you're only boosting the power of a spell by 10% from popping a cartridge, the cost might not be worth it, to retrofit all standard mage staves with cartridge systems.
50% sounds decent, I would like to give the grunts a little credit. I mean, no matter what they're still soldiers, they can condition themselves to take it.



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I think you underestimate what batteries can do. Your UAV's do a lot of gliding, and the power draw is actually kinda minimal. There is a great power difference between just hanging in the air, and changing your movement at great speeds while using some of that energy for attacks and shields. That's like saying Precia's robots have enough energy to walk slowly for 3 hours. But throw that same robot into heavy combat, and the batteries will be drained in 10-15 minutes.
Like I'm saying, I'm very certain no manufacturers in their right mind would provide a war machine that has only less than an hour of combat time, we have to give them at least that much credit. Even Jail's drones were going at it for, what- three hours?

Anyway the original topic I'm trying to find out machines and vehicles work in their world. We can assume that at the very least they have alternate source of power that doesn't rely on magic for the non-magic folks right? With that in mind, they have the means to create weapons that does not rely on mages and magic.
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Old 2011-01-06, 00:07   Link #9245
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Chaos, the walls you keep bumping up against fall into one or more of three areas:

1. Unethical
2. Cost issues
3. Unknown/high risk factors

Yeah, nothing is technically preventing you from implementing your plans, but there are other people and their lives to consider. Treat them like robots at your peril.

Really, if there is one thing that's been hammered into us over and over, it's that there is one area that provides the highest benefits for the lowest costs, and that's training. If it were me, before I go yanking linker cores, buying up cartridges and cartridge systems, raising taxes, and implementing unethical research that could bring Hayate down on my ass, I'd find mage trainers and pay them highly to whip my units into shape.

That, above anything else, would improve the combat potential of my troops.

Not to mention, there is a clear feedback effect. You have Nanoha train your unit, and now they are higher rank and have learned how to train others. Now those people can go out and train other troops.

When put in that light, I dunno, it makes other methods seem kinda... not worth it.
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Old 2011-01-07, 15:48   Link #9246
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Old 2011-01-09, 06:50   Link #9247
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Old 2011-01-09, 07:12   Link #9248
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Chaos, the walls you keep bumping up against fall into one or more of three areas:

1. Unethical
If both sides agree to the procedure, it is only different from any other organ transplant in that the donor will survive. I see no problem with the ethnicity.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
2. Cost issues
A completely unknown factor, and therefore irrelevant as an argument.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
3. Unknown/high risk factors
Unknown, and therefore, irrelevant. The high risk factor (if one exists at all) is easily handwaved as a scientist discovering a safe way to do it in the fic.

Really, if an idea can't work because canon completely contradicts it is one thing, but saying the same just because it either hasn't been done before or because there are a lot of unknown factors is just pinching out a creative flame. Nanohaverse didn't widely use cartridges until A's (hell, they didn't even exist in the franchise until A's rolled them in) and neither did cyborgs, zombies, unison devices, dragons, clones and what-have-you until their respective series introduced them. As long as it sounds reasonable, there is no reason why a fic can't introduce a new aspect to the Nanohaverse.
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Old 2011-01-09, 12:34   Link #9249
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If both sides agree to the procedure, it is only different from any other organ transplant in that the donor will survive. I see no problem with the ethnicity.
I meant unethical in that cyborg implants require a baby to be modified at birth. Society, at least this one, has made that against the law. That's why Regius and the Brain council had Jail operate outside the law, because they never would have been able to do it legally.

Of course, if you're talking about cyborg implants into a full-grown adult that can consent, we already know that there are issues involved with long-term rejection. On Earth, that requires daily pills to suppress that immune response.

Quote:
A completely unknown factor, and therefore irrelevant as an argument.
Unknown, yes. Irrelevant, no. The TSAB functions on money, and that's never an unlimited factor. We've been told time and again that things cost money, and are expensive (like devices). Unless a fic plans to raise taxes across the board to pay for particular things, I don't see it as plausible.

Quote:
Unknown, and therefore, irrelevant. The high risk factor (if one exists at all) is easily handwaved as a scientist discovering a safe way to do it in the fic.
As I said above, unknowns are never irrelevant. If a fic wants plausibility, it needs to address the basics of reality. If linker core harvesting were completely risk-free, you think the TSAB might have done it by now to bolster their ranks. After all, what non-mage wouldn't want magic? Hell, Jail would have done that. Regius would have wanted that most of all, because if it was safe, it would have been legal and a good way to get the mages he needed. Instead, he needed to turn to combat cyborgs and drones.

I don't see too many scientists being smarter than Jail. Even the Eclipse scientist people in Force were running into issues working with Lily. Zombies required the mental torture of a young girl. Combat cyborgs required tinkering with babies (and thus later mental issues that StrikerS only hints at).

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Really, all the exotic advances we've seen so far, required something unethical, illegal, and just plain evil to accomplish. The only one that was, is simple training.

Quote:
Really, if an idea can't work because canon completely contradicts it is one thing, but saying the same just because it either hasn't been done before or because there are a lot of unknown factors is just pinching out a creative flame. Nanohaverse didn't widely use cartridges until A's (hell, they didn't even exist in the franchise until A's rolled them in) and neither did cyborgs, zombies, unison devices, dragons, clones and what-have-you until their respective series introduced them. As long as it sounds reasonable, there is no reason why a fic can't introduce a new aspect to the Nanohaverse.
You have a point. Of course any fic can simply invent anything it wants to. Whether it retains a degree of plausibility is another matter altogether. Cartridges also carried risk in that not everyone could use them, and devices needed reinforcing to use them. And required that one carry a load of them.

There are drawbacks to almost everything. As in real life, there are no real shortcuts to power.

But my pain point, if you take nothing else from this, is that all these extra things are irrelevant. Why? Because the whole point is to make a stronger army and/or empower mages. We've already been told time and again the best way to do that, which is a big reason why Nanoha went into teaching.

It's probably not as exciting as an exotic solution, but there you have it.
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Old 2011-01-09, 14:47   Link #9250
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I meant unethical in that cyborg implants require a baby to be modified at birth. Society, at least this one, has made that against the law. That's why Regius and the Brain council had Jail operate outside the law, because they never would have been able to do it legally.

Of course, if you're talking about cyborg implants into a full-grown adult that can consent, we already know that there are issues involved with long-term rejection. On Earth, that requires daily pills to suppress that immune response.
Ahh, I thought you were talking about Linker Core transplant. Cyborgs are a different story, and one I agree with on the ethics. That does not mean, however, that there are no ways around it.

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Unknown, yes. Irrelevant, no. The TSAB functions on money, and that's never an unlimited factor. We've been told time and again that things cost money, and are expensive (like devices). Unless a fic plans to raise taxes across the board to pay for particular things, I don't see it as plausible.
By all means, remind me the last time cost was an actual issue. In the case of devices, the fact that Teana and Subaru cobbled their own together in private without any professional knowledge of device construction (Teana even incorporating a cartridge system no less) tells us that it is neither extremely difficult nor expensive.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As I said above, unknowns are never irrelevant. If a fic wants plausibility, it needs to address the basics of reality. If linker core harvesting were completely risk-free, you think the TSAB might have done it by now to bolster their ranks. After all, what non-mage wouldn't want magic? Hell, Jail would have done that. Regius would have wanted that most of all, because if it was safe, it would have been legal and a good way to get the mages he needed. Instead, he needed to turn to combat cyborgs and drones.

I don't see too many scientists being smarter than Jail. Even the Eclipse scientist people in Force were running into issues working with Lily. Zombies required the mental torture of a young girl. Combat cyborgs required tinkering with babies (and thus later mental issues that StrikerS only hints at).

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Really, all the exotic advances we've seen so far, required something unethical, illegal, and just plain evil to accomplish. The only one that was, is simple training.
And that means we should end it just because to this point training was the only solution? There's a million random explanations we can create to progress the story. Here's one: Science advances. By looking at the research from different angles, scientists using Jail's accomplishments in cyborg research manage to perfect the genetic compatibility of the technology to allow cyborg implants and modifications to function at full efficiency in adults.

Linker Core harvesting and 'why didn't the TSAB do so earlier if its possible?' is a stifling argument. Why didn't they equip their forces with cartridges before A's? Heck, why didn't we see any cartridges before A's? Because the system was only introduced in A's, and then retroactively flowed back in the rest of the Nanohaverse through flashbacks. Similarly, Linker Core transplantation could be introduced in the fic in question, and through flashbacks be introduced as having always been part of the universe.

That's why unknowns are irrelevant: Arguments about it are pointless and nearly always go both ways, leaving the only argument against them "Well, why didn't we see it before then?" which is a useless argument since nothing post S1 would have made it in the franchise should the author have stuck to that logic.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You have a point. Of course any fic can simply invent anything it wants to. Whether it retains a degree of plausibility is another matter altogether. Cartridges also carried risk in that not everyone could use them, and devices needed reinforcing to use them. And required that one carry a load of them.

There are drawbacks to almost everything. As in real life, there are no real shortcuts to power.
Then make drawbacks to it, but that's no reason to discard the idea altogether just because 'it wasn't there before.'

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But my pain point, if you take nothing else from this, is that all these extra things are irrelevant. Why? Because the whole point is to make a stronger army and/or empower mages. We've already been told time and again the best way to do that, which is a big reason why Nanoha went into teaching.

It's probably not as exciting as an exotic solution, but there you have it.
That's the point StrikerS wants to make. Good for StrikerS. How does that automatically make it the point of every fic about Nanoha? A fanfic follows its own designs, plots and conclusions, there is no rule saying they have to strictly adhere to the social message of the show.
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Old 2011-01-09, 16:10   Link #9251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ahh, I thought you were talking about Linker Core transplant. Cyborgs are a different story, and one I agree with on the ethics. That does not mean, however, that there are no ways around it.
My list of three things was a more of a general reply to all the suggestions put forth. They all apply in varying degrees, depending on your solution.

Quote:
By all means, remind me the last time cost was an actual issue. In the case of devices, the fact that Teana and Subaru cobbled their own together in private without any professional knowledge of device construction (Teana even incorporating a cartridge system no less) tells us that it is neither extremely difficult nor expensive.
So, you're assuming the Bureau has unlimited money to afford everything it wants?

And Teana and Subaru's devices are actually a good example; they were decent on their own, but nowhere near what was needed for heavy use. Subaru basically made her skates (which fried in one of the training sessions) but already came with the knuckle her mom used. Subaru's was basically a short staff with the ability to load a couple of cartridges.

So there is a wide range, and you can probably put something together cheaply if you know how, but we're talking top of the line stuff because we want to make our army good. That's gonna take money.

And also note that most of the special devices our heroes use, are deliberately crafted just for them. Whereas the staves the red shirt army uses, seem to be manufactured. There is a very deliberate difference in cost between hand-crafting everything for everyone, and using economies of scale to churn out the exact same weapon for everyone. If Linith is anything to go by, a top-of-the-line hand-crafted device is expensive.

Think F-22 vs. F-35. The former is incredibly expensive, but the best at what it does, as a stealthy air superiority fighter. But the F-35 can also do air superiority, although not quite as good. So why don't we just buy F-22's for all our fighter pilots? Cost. The F-22 is vastly more expensive than the F-35.

And we're actually getting some interesting insights into the Bureau's weapon procurement process with Force. We see a private company researching and designing the weapons, which means the Bureau is actually buying them from a private company (or public corporation). Very analogous to what armies do today.

Quote:
And that means we should end it just because to this point training was the only solution? There's a million random explanations we can create to progress the story. Here's one: Science advances. By looking at the research from different angles, scientists using Jail's accomplishments in cyborg research manage to perfect the genetic compatibility of the technology to allow cyborg implants and modifications to function at full efficiency in adults.
Okay, in my fic, cyborgs are suddenly plausible with no downsides whatsoever because some smart guy somewhere that it was fine. Also, we've mastered linker core donations, so now everyone is a mage, all because we made up a scientist who said it could. How did we get past all the problems? Why are you asking such silly questions. They are all possible because a scientist said so!

Quote:
Linker Core harvesting and 'why didn't the TSAB do so earlier if its possible?' is a stifling argument. Why didn't they equip their forces with cartridges before A's? Heck, why didn't we see any cartridges before A's?
Actually it was addressed by Signum, who said it was a then-unreliable system. I'm assuming that the cartridge system is more reliable now precisely because they had Levantein and Graf Eisen to look at; actual armed devices from ancient Belka. And then, they weren't making a new technology, so much as recovering a lost technology that already existed.

In short, the cartridge system is a poor analogy to use. Yes, it didn't technically exist until A's, but it was woven into the back story well enough as a lost technology.

Quote:
Similarly, Linker Core transplantation could be introduced in the fic in question, and through flashbacks be introduced as having always been part of the universe.
What are the drawbacks? Because if a linker core is an organ, then you run into issues of potential organ rejection, and taking pills every day for the rest of your life.

Quote:
That's why unknowns are irrelevant: Arguments about it are pointless and nearly always go both ways, leaving the only argument against them "Well, why didn't we see it before then?" which is a useless argument since nothing post S1 would have made it in the franchise should the author have stuck to that logic.
The difference is that A's did it well. Introducing a new ability but with sufficient drawbacks such that the heroes could use them, but also stated that it wasn't something for everyone.

What I am saying is that the drawbacks need to be recognized in such a fics, not simply hand-waved away as "A scientist did it."

Note that I'm not saying it's impossible, only implausible and giving in-universe and logical reasons why. It's up to a fic to address those very real concerns. I'm not saying "No, you can't." I'm saying "there are issues with those ideas that need to be address."

I suppose it's the amount of hand-waving each person can accept.

Quote:
That's the point StrikerS wants to make. Good for StrikerS. How does that automatically make it the point of every fic about Nanoha? A fanfic follows its own designs, plots and conclusions, there is no rule saying they have to strictly adhere to the social message of the show.
It's not a social message; it's a fact of the show just like magic and the TSAB is a fact of the show. I keep hearing the rationale for OC's is that they like the universe, but don't feel they can do much with the current crop of characters. That's fine, that's great, more power to ya! But what do you have if you're not really using the characters nor adhering to the laws of the currently constructed universe?

Wouldn't you think, that if linker core donation was at all possible, that Regius would have jumped on it? Or at least been one of the things they would have had Jail study? Hell, cloning seems to actually be a more plausible solution to making new mages. Just clone Nanoha and Fate a few thousand times! And that's a technology already addressed in the show as something that does work!

So, they already kinda addressed the linker core issue in the form of artificial mages, but those mages are modified by Relics and/or cloned.
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Old 2011-01-09, 17:04   Link #9252
Keroko
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My list of three things was a more of a general reply to all the suggestions put forth. They all apply in varying degrees, depending on your solution.
Except you can't throw a sweeping generalization like that. What's so unethical about a linker core transplant if both sides agree to it?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, you're assuming the Bureau has unlimited money to afford everything it wants?
I'm assuming we don't know anything about money in the TSAB and thus shouldn't be trying to assume anything regarding limits.

Can you tell me how expensive Raising Heart is? How expensive a cartridge is? How expensive maintenance is? What the average salary is of a TSAB officer? Hell, can you even tell me what the Mid Childa currency is and what the market value of it is?

If not, then we can't assume anything. Anything we assume will automatically be in support of our own opinion, making it anything but a solid argument.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And Teana and Subaru's devices are actually a good example; they were decent on their own, but nowhere near what was needed for heavy use. Subaru basically made her skates (which fried in one of the training sessions) but already came with the knuckle her mom used. Subaru's was basically a short staff with the ability to load a couple of cartridges.

So there is a wide range, and you can probably put something together cheaply if you know how, but we're talking top of the line stuff because we want to make our army good. That's gonna take money.

And also note that most of the special devices our heroes use, are deliberately crafted just for them. Whereas the staves the red shirt army uses, seem to be manufactured. There is a very deliberate difference in cost between hand-crafting everything for everyone, and using economies of scale to churn out the exact same weapon for everyone. If Linith is anything to go by, a top-of-the-line hand-crafted device is expensive.
And yet poor archaeologist Yuuno was walking around with the most powerful device in the series. Like I said: Assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Okay, in my fic, cyborgs are suddenly plausible with no downsides whatsoever because some smart guy somewhere that it was fine. Also, we've mastered linker core donations, so now everyone is a mage, all because we made up a scientist who said it could. How did we get past all the problems? Why are you asking such silly questions. They are all possible because a scientist said so!
Good. Go for it then and make a good story with it.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually it was addressed by Signum, who said it was a then-unreliable system. I'm assuming that the cartridge system is more reliable now precisely because they had Levantein and Graf Eisen to look at; actual armed devices from ancient Belka. And then, they weren't making a new technology, so much as recovering a lost technology that already existed.

In short, the cartridge system is a poor analogy to use. Yes, it didn't technically exist until A's, but it was woven into the back story well enough as a lost technology.
This is more an example of how a system can be woven into the background despite not having been shown on-screen before, which doesn't negate my point in any way.

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What are the drawbacks? Because if a linker core is an organ, then you run into issues of potential organ rejection, and taking pills every day for the rest of your life.
There you go. One potential drawback that can become centerpiece in a fic.

But if the author doesn't want to work with that particular drawback, it being a magical organ gives it more than enough leeway (it being capable of being ripped out of a body and returned without permanent harm or surgery required shows it doesn't function as regular organs do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The difference is that A's did it well. Introducing a new ability but with sufficient drawbacks such that the heroes could use them, but also stated that it wasn't something for everyone.

What I am saying is that the drawbacks need to be recognized in such a fics, not simply hand-waved away as "A scientist did it."

Note that I'm not saying it's impossible, only implausible and giving in-universe and logical reasons why. It's up to a fic to address those very real concerns. I'm not saying "No, you can't." I'm saying "there are issues with those ideas that need to be address."

I suppose it's the amount of hand-waving each person can accept.
Then actually help people with that. All you have been saying to this point is pretty much "no you can't, no you can't, no you can't." That's not constructive criticism, that's just stifling someone's creativity by telling him his ideas are impossible.

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It's not a social message; it's a fact of the show just like magic and the TSAB is a fact of the show. I keep hearing the rationale for OC's is that they like the universe, but don't feel they can do much with the current crop of characters. That's fine, that's great, more power to ya! But what do you have if you're not really using the characters nor adhering to the laws of the currently constructed universe.
It is a social message. It's the usual 'teamwork and hard work overcomes cheating!' social message. Fine and dandy, and a working method to achieve power, but if a writer wants to introduce a new system and make that a part of the plot in his fic, why the hell not? Introducing new elements is nothing new to fiction, and Nanoha has a variety of elements that suddenly got introduced.

For example, you say "don't you think Regius would have jumped on the Linker Core transplant?" I say "Don't you think he would have jumped on Eclipse and try to get it to work in a good way?" Except Regius didn't, because Eclipse got introduced in Force, which came after StrikerS.

The same argument can be raised for cartridges. Why didn't Regius jump all over that? Not only is it a fine way to boost a good selection of mages, but sending his R&D staff to work on it would have been perfectly legal too. The reason he didn't? Because cartridges were introduced in A's, and StrikerS came after that.

The rules of a universe should be there to guide an author, not stifle them.
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Old 2011-01-09, 18:26   Link #9253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except you can't throw a sweeping generalization like that. What's so unethical about a linker core transplant if both sides agree to it?
You say there aren't ethical issues with organ donation? Say, a rich man with heart problems pays a poor person to donate his heart? The poor person will get a weaker substitute that won't work as well. Can't you see the ethical issues that can arise from that?

In another light, a rich person pays a poor person to sign away some of their rights and become a slave. Sure, both sides agreed to it, but there are bigger issues behind it than that.

Quote:
Can you tell me how expensive Raising Heart is? How expensive a cartridge is? How expensive maintenance is? What the average salary is of a TSAB officer? Hell, can you even tell me what the Mid Childa currency is and what the market value of it is?
Keroko, you're better than this. You know very well there is a currency in play in Mid-Childa. We have multiple instances of it. This isn't a communisti society, and in fact it's based on our own capitalistic society, so we can make generalizations about how much things would cost. For instance, we can assume that those chocolate pods that Subaru and Ginga bought were probably equivalent in price to what you could find here.

I suppose a fic could make a chocolate pod cost something equal to a year's pay, but I would have trouble taking such a fic seriously.

Quote:
And yet poor archaeologist Yuuno was walking around with the most powerful device in the series. Like I said: Assumptions.
Most powerful? An argument could be made there. And yes, we don't know where he got it. Maybe it was a family heirloom. Maybe he found it in a ruin. Cost was never mentioned with RH, but it was mentioned in regards to Bardiche... and it was implied to be a considerable sum. At least it seemed like parents buying an expensive car for their kid. According to the movie, Precia was a researcher for a corporation that was concerned with costs.

Quote:
But if the author doesn't want to work with that particular drawback, it being a magical organ gives it more than enough leeway (it being capable of being ripped out of a body and returned without permanent harm or surgery required shows it doesn't function as regular organs do).
Or that Mid-Childa's medical technology is fairly advanced. I have little doubt that they could save someone who had an organ removed. The thing is, we are never shown someone surviving their full core being removed. The doctor even told Nanoha she was lucky!

Quote:
Then actually help people with that. All you have been saying to this point is pretty much "no you can't, no you can't, no you can't." That's not constructive criticism, that's just stifling someone's creativity by telling him his ideas are impossible.
Keroko, you know very well what I've been saying all along. You aren't the sort of person who I would need to say this more than once. I am not against someone using these. And in fact, I AM helping them by pointing out the issues as they exist in the universe. They are free to write a universe where unicorns show up and fart rainbows if they want.

RESTATING ONCE MORE: I am saying, "It's not likely, given what we know, and here are the issues."

I am NOT saying, "It's impossible."

An author can still work with improbably; just that to get me to believe in the plausibility, it needs to be well-written. Suddenly having cyborg technology work with no downsides would invalidate everything Jail did.

Magic can do what you want.

Science is, however, a harsher mistress.

Quote:
For example, you say "don't you think Regius would have jumped on the Linker Core transplant?" I say "Don't you think he would have jumped on Eclipse and try to get it to work in a good way?" Except Regius didn't, because Eclipse got introduced in Force, which came after StrikerS.
Actually, Regius would probably say, "hell no" to the eclipse. He doesn't want people who have to kill to survive. That would defeat the purpose of him gaining forces to protect Mid-Childa.

Quote:
The same argument can be raised for cartridges. Why didn't Regius jump all over that? Not only is it a fine way to boost a good selection of mages, but sending his R&D staff to work on it would have been perfectly legal too. The reason he didn't? Because cartridges were introduced in A's, and StrikerS came after that.
...Except it was already pointed out that not everyone could use cartridges (it wasn't a system well-suited to just anyone). In short, it was something already well-known.

And if cartridges are so good, why don't more people use them? Why doesn't Hayate? Why doesn't Caro? Why doesn't Shamal? Why didn't Zest or Megane? Hell, Regius had Quint right there using cartridges.

Conclusion: There is a good in-universe explanation why cartridges aren't more wide-spread.

And you're forgetting exactly what Regius was after, which was more personnel. So cartridges wouldn't have fit with what he was looking for. That was why he was interested in combat cyborgs and artificial mages, because they would boost the number of people under his command. Cartridges wouldn't have done that. So once again, bad analogy.

As I said above, and will say again: we already have something related to Linker Core donation in clones and artificial mages. Both of those show what the show considered more plausible and doable. Why take a core out and risk harm to a person, when you can simply clone them? Or why take a core when you can use a relic to empower them?

And so I will say it again in a slightly different manner: If linker core donation were an option, why wasn't it considered? When I postulate that question, it doesn't mean "You can't do that!" no matter how much you want to believe i"m saying that. I'm saying: "Think of a good reason why."

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The rules of a universe should be there to guide an author, not stifle them.
Ah, but a universe is, by it's very nature, rule-defining. When you pull out your Monopoly board game, you can't just decide to use it to play a game of Connect Four. Monopoly is poorly-suited to doing so.

If I set my fic in Depression era New York, I can't just decide to have pigs fly. If I did and someone complained about implausible it was, I'd look pretty silly going, "Quit telling me what I can't do! It's my story!" By picking that setting, I've already "stifled" myself on the basis on the universe I've selected. I've defined my ruleset. Part of story-writing is making a story fit in that already predefined setting.

From what I get from you, Keroko, you basically want "A wizard did it!" to be the answer to everything. That trope in and of itself isn't bad, but it gets a bit worse when you try to say, "A scientist did it!" And I think both of us could point out many bad movies that were bad because of... bad science.
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Old 2011-01-09, 21:53   Link #9254
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Actually here is one hitch. The linker core expires when the body dies and if the linker core expires, the body dies. I believe that was established in cannon, A's.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. In one way, rebel, write the fic, make it work. On the other hand, if you want to hammer it out int he face of (imho needed)criticism, then the result should be having the fic written.
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Old 2011-01-09, 22:20   Link #9255
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Wow, things got restarted again ?

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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Actually here is one hitch. The linker core expires when the body dies and if the linker core expires, the body dies. I believe that was established in cannon, A's.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. In one way, rebel, write the fic, make it work. On the other hand, if you want to hammer it out int he face of (imho needed)criticism, then the result should be having the fic written.
...So basically if nobody dies, then it's fine right? Which is what I was saying -_-

You dont have to kill someone to remove their Linker Core (partially).
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Old 2011-01-09, 23:12   Link #9256
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Yeah you need to make up some SCIENCE t o make it work, but at that point, the ramifications that takes the story forward is what makes it worthwhile.

Actually this includes death
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Old 2011-01-09, 23:45   Link #9257
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Yeah you need to make up some SCIENCE t o make it work, but at that point, the ramifications that takes the story forward is what makes it worthwhile.

Actually this includes death
Erm, correct me if I'm wrong or mistaken, but what death? Both Nanoha and Fate had their cores removed (partially) and survived with nothing more than a few days off, plus their cores regenerated so they can use magic agan just fine.
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Old 2011-01-10, 12:20   Link #9258
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I'm pretty sure the first post on this page explains that. I gather they were not actually removed completely in order to be copied.
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Old 2011-01-10, 13:29   Link #9259
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The only real issues I had with linker core donation, is the effect it would have on the donor and recipient. It sounds like you want to take some of the linker core and implant it into a normal, thus creating two mages where once there was just one, hoping the original linker core would regrow to normal.

If this is correct, I just wanted to point out that, with every other organ, there are issues of whether the donor is enough of a match to make the recipient even able to accept it. And even if it's a match, it usually entails taking medicine for the rest of your life. That's a fairly nasty weakness to inflict on your forces, if they get into a position where they don't have access to their medicine when they need it. And if there are no drawbacks (a situation I would find a bit implausible), that's

As for the donor, Nanoha and Fate were able to regrow what was taken of theirs, but they were young and lucky. What about the mages Vita attacked near the start, who took the entire core? Would they regrow it? If they did, seeing as how they were older, would they even be able to use magic at the same level again? Nanoha's magic diminished by 8% because of how she overtaxed herself. She overtaxed herself before, but was able to recover because she was young. Apparently, at 19, she's not so young anymore and her body doesn't recover magically as well (might be another reason why front line mages tend to be younger, and older ones get shifted to desk jobs). Strike Witches had this sort of issue, too.

However, the series gets around that with a simple solution: artificial mages via cloning. While it brings up some ethical issues, it is a simpler and more straight-forward method. You don't have to bother with issues of rejection, and sometimes you'll get a mage who is more powerful than the original (seems to be a bit hit-and-miss, depending on how you interpret Fate being stronger than Alicia). And technically speaking, if someone gives consent to be cloned, there might not be any real legal issue. The only problems would be illegal cloning where a party did not give their consent. Zest didn't turn out so well, but Fate and Erio did.

So, it's like Nanoha deciding to drop magic and take up boxing, preferring to fight that way. You'd ask yourself, "Why would she do that, when magic is clearly a superior method to boxing?"

The only way I currently see linker core donation, is a forced thing like the Book of Darkness. IE, some rich guy who doesn't have magic, pays to kidnap mages and implant their cores into him so he could have magic. The potential for abuse that way would be rather high.

So if you don't want training to improve your forces, my next choice on the list would be cloning. Perhaps duplicating some of Jail's relic weapon research to use those relics and implant them into people.

Lutecia seemed to come out well, although we're not entirely sure what Jail did to her. They refer to her as an artificial mage, so she could have been given powers or had her magic enhanced in some way. Heh, perhaps Jail did remove Megane's linker core and give it to Lutecia, knowing he could control Lu better. After all, we haven't seen Megane do any magic since awakening, so maybe at her age she can't regrow it (if that's what happened). I do have to wonder why they would be interested in Megane's daughter, though.
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Old 2011-01-10, 13:58   Link #9260
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...I really should be working on my office projects.

Edit: Holy shit, page claim! After over 3 years of getting final post on the previous page, this is only my 3rd page claim in recent memory! Guess it was worthwile to stay up late for this XD ^_^

...bugger. I need to get up in 3 hour's time. -_-;;

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm, correct me if I'm wrong or mistaken, but what death? Both Nanoha and Fate had their cores removed (partially) and survived with nothing more than a few days off, plus their cores regenerated so they can use magic agan just fine.
A's implies that it wasn't a few days, and given how bed-ridden and weak both of them were, I think the point being made is that death is a risk with the absorption of a full linker core.

Let's put it this way: more people die from the normal flu in one month than during the entire run of Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome. Adults can die of chicken pox.

Chiming in here, there are a couple of points to note with regards to linker core transplants and such:

1) Partial Transplant, as what is seen in A's, appears to merely take the power from the mage, which can then be placed into a storage medium. So if you've got a lot of clones you can do partial transplants from them, harvesting linker cores on a schedule, not unlike cutting down trees and replanting the forest for later use.

Of course, this is ethically problematic - as a normal person I don't favor this approach, but it works well for villians.

2) I believe it's been mentioned somewhere that Teana's bike ran on some handwavium-combustion catalyst engine that used water. Assuming this is the case, this means that logistics for vehicles are simplified in the Nanoverse - fill with water.

In fact, to a certain extent, this simplifies logistics for a deployed force of mages - they just need water for drinking, sanitation and to run the vehicles, and food to keep going, compared to a conventional earth military force, which needs water, food, fuel, and varying types of ammunition for the various weapon systems employed.

3) Regards cartridges, given the way they function I've always felt they were analogous to nitrous oxide systems in cars (aka NOS). NOS gives a temporary boost in speed and power, but you can't just plug NOS into a untuned car and expect it to work: you need to have frame strengthening, balancing, improved suspension & brakes, and a whole host of other work to get the car ready to use NOS, which significantly adds to the cost.

4) Thus, assume that your plain vanilla magic stave costs USD 1000. Adding the nescessary parts to accept cartridges - frame strengthening, cartridge system itself, cooling system, etc - will then add to the cost of the stave. This is not an attractive proposition for any purchasing department anywhere, who have to balance between getting something good and getting something affordable.

Let's face it, this is true of everything. There is only so much budget to go around, and people everywhere will need to squeeze as much of the budget as possible, ie "Do as much as possible with nothing."

This has been my personal experience after working at the Domino's Malaysia Customer Service Centre (the only one of it's kind in the world! Fancy that!) for 2 years and 8 months.

As an article by a noted US military officer on weapons noted, it does no good to have the most advanced weapon ever if only one person can use it and only one person can have it due to costs - it's better to equip everyone with a weapon that is good enough for the purposes.

5) While it's mundane and not so glamorous, yes, training does work. Take the F-5E Tiger II and A-4 Skyhawk. Cold war era fighters, inferior in performance to modern fighters. Yet until the airframes were finally retired due to age, Navy Aggressor squadrons and Top Gun routinely schooled F-14 and F/A-18 pilots who were expecting an easy fight. This is the difference training makes.

On the ground forces level, we have the Blackhorse from the National Training Centre in the US. Using equipment simulating Russian equipment, OPFOR routinely defeated US units training against it, and then explained what the weaknesses where and how to fix them.

Compare a squad of rifleman in a third world military. They can more or less march, do manual labor, fire a rifle, throw grenades. They can fire their individual weapon pretty well, clean and strip them and put them together. those trained on machine guns could fire those machine guns, clean and strip and clear basic jams. They can slap a compress on somebody who had been shot.

Compare a squad of riflemen in a Stryker Battalion. They can: fire their individual weapons, clean, strip, detail clean and in many cases do minor repairs. They can do the same on a pistol, squad automatic weapon (SAW), a medium machine gun or a heavy, regardless if that wasn't their primary job. The Javelin gunners could do the same; most troops can also work a Javelin as well as the dedicated gunners. They can do close quarters battle, movement to contact on foot or in vehicle, set up an ambush, react to an ambush, perform battlefield first responder actions up to and including inserting an IV and in many cases stitching a minor wound. They can lay in claymores and in many cases more advanced demolitions. They can call for fire from the mortars. They can land navigate using GPS and/or map. They could perform fire and maneuver. They are trained in night movement either in march or combat. They can all work a radio. They can all drive a Stryker.

This is the difference training makes. And these are grunts, not Special Forces.

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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Think I made a mistake in my writings, I have a defense attorney and her adopted daughter.

Is it reasonable/worthwhile/able to justify a scenario where she defends her daughter in TSAB Tribunal court?
It's possible, but usually the legal profession does not encourage family members to defend their relatives in court, due to the family relationship causing counsel to be unable to maintain proper separation from the case at hand: counsel is supposed to approach the case dispassionately, without personal feelings being drawn into the mix - this is not the case if counsel is defending a family member.
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