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Old 2011-01-09, 22:00   Link #21421
CrystalStarlight95
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Geez, even if I suck at Japanese Kanji, I still want EP8 O_O

For one of those questions that weren't answered, I read somewhere that since Erika didn't know Kanon and Shannon were the same person, the closed room she created is destroyed, somehow allowing Beato's thing to work. It was presumed Battler planned his Logic Error from the very beginning to get Beato's memory back. (o_o? Alright, I confess, I got that off Umineko Wiki, please don't kill me!!!!)

ANYWHO, I don't know why Ryukishi insists on beating around the bush over the true answers such as the existence of magic and Rokkenjima Prime. I know the MMO analogy is pretty much the same but come on, we've spent *counts* er...3, 4 years, I think---Trying to solve the mystery (I know it's not a mystery, you guys have stated it a million times, I'm talking mystery as in "WTHISGOINGON?!" thing..) and stating all these theories....it would be fair if we learned the answer and comparing ours with the real one and seeing if we were wrong or not. Just saying.

But if Ryu ends up not sharing it, I'll be upset, but I won't rage....I...won't...rage....*takes some happy pills* .....You guys are pretty~^^
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Old 2011-01-09, 22:13   Link #21422
AuraTwilight
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Personally, I'd rather have things be ambiguous than getting an answer no one likes.

"So it turns out Battler did it, and everything you ever said was a lie. He never loved Yasu/Beatrice and the guy you came to like is made up. Battler just shot up everyone like an evil asshole because he hates Rudolf. He then became Amakusa and capped Ange's bitchass in the head for more money.

Suck on it."
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Old 2011-01-09, 22:17   Link #21423
immblueversion
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Personally, I'd rather have things be ambiguous than getting an answer no one likes.
So now people have the freedom to interpret the story any way they want, or maybe even make up their own accounts of what happened, regardless of whether or not they liked the ending.

You know what this means, right?

Spoiler for Dare I say it:
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Old 2011-01-09, 22:19   Link #21424
CrystalStarlight95
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*sob sob* Man, that's sad. *flicks teardrops off my hands at the Witch of Tears* Meh, you can use these for something *sob*
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Old 2011-01-09, 22:55   Link #21425
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*licks them off your face*

ahaha.wav
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Old 2011-01-10, 01:44   Link #21426
Renall
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
But really, I think we are going to get an answer in the end. If not, then it will be disappointing, but it doesn't hurt to wait until Rei comes out right? Maybe it will have all answers there and we have time to think until it comes out.

It doesn't hurt to be a bit optimistic here.
I've given him enough optimistic benefit of the doubt. He's tapped out at this point.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... ... ...can't get fooled again.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-01-10, 02:10   Link #21427
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I can see it now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
....is Renall gone? Alright time to publish all that stuff that would've made him happy.
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Old 2011-01-10, 02:11   Link #21428
ClannadDango
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Wow reading all the previous post, people are really serious about solving this.
Reading these discussion I now think Umineko is a "Purple Flower" story.
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Old 2011-01-10, 02:16   Link #21429
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Thinking about the titles of Ep1-8 which spells out "D Battler"

Does that mean we have 3 more in "rei" that will spell out "Dear Battler" completely ?

;D just some random thoughts....
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Old 2011-01-10, 02:25   Link #21430
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Maybe we'll get two more in "rei"

Interrogation of the Golden Witch
Exposition of the Golden Witch

Die Battler
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Old 2011-01-10, 03:40   Link #21431
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Maybe we'll get two more in "rei"

Interrogation of the Golden Witch
Exposition of the Golden Witch

Die Battler
Don't forget "Land of the Golden Witch"

BATTLER LIED
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Old 2011-01-10, 04:38   Link #21432
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I don't think it sucks.

Using that MMO analogy, we defeated the last boss and obtained the incredible rare item. I think even MMO players will argue with you about this.

What was the correct goal of the MMO game?
  • To defeat the final boss? “I was part of this guild and we were first to kill boss X on server Y.”
  • To make friends in an online community and have fun with them? ”I don’t remember any of the stats of those rare items. However, we worked hard together so that we could obtain them.”
  • To identify the item since the description doesn't mention what this incredible rare item actually does? ”We put in years of work for this. The reward must be worth our time.”
I don’t have a problem with any of those goals. They are all correct goals. However, for this game, we have received an official statement saying that the item will not be identified for us. He’s given us the identification tools and all we have to do is identify it ourselves.

MMORPG players being satisfied just by the fact that they killed a strong Boss?
Have you really played a MMORPG before?

That could be true if you just spent the 1-2 hours necessary to kill a particularly strong endgame boss.
But if you worked 1-2 years to get an item, it means that you have killed that very boss so many times that it became boring routine, and then the only thing that could make up for that wasted time is the idea that you finally got your reward.

Now if we were just talking about the few hours spent in actually reading the novels I would agree with you. But I can't agree with that when I think about the 1-2 years spent on speculating and discussing about this story, especially when Ryuukishi asked us to do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok, so you ARE concerned about what happened on Rokkenjima Prime. And that EP8 was supposed to show you this? Ok, I just want to sort out that this part of the story has absolutely nothing to do with the Beatrice Mysteries in regards to whether he promised us an answer or not.
Yeah so why he was expecting us to understand that Rokkenjima was engulfed in an explosion?
Certainly you can't tell me that this could be reached without any reasoning or without the 1998 perspective. If he was expecting this it means he was expecting that we reasoned even about that part.
Then he should have expected that we speculated even on what actually caused that tragic event, and he should have expected that we were expecting an answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
The only promise for answers that I recognize is the ones for the mysteries.
which weren't given.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So there hasn't been a 'switch' for me at all.
I didn't mean to say that there's been a switch for you, or for everyone. But I know that the vast majority believed in an answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
The whole story has been going exactly as I foresaw. I mean, how many times does he have to say that there's no happy ending (in interviews and from characters mouths) for us to realize that there was no way to prevent the Ushiromiya family from dying? EP8 pretty much summed up what I was expecting; a bittersweet ending was the best ending possible...
A bittersweet ending has nothing to do with the lack of explanations. We could have had both things.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I'm sorry to have to say what I was able to foresee. I'm not trying to say I was a genius because after I posted these ideas, I thought it should've been kinda obvious. But ultimately, I cannot argue that you should've seen this coming, if you hadn't been thinking the same things I had. I'm just saying that someone else could see this coming, so maybe you're mistaken about what was promised or not.

I can say that I picked up all these clues to arrive at the conclusion:
1. No happy end. Interviews and multiple EPs.
2. An explosion that cleans the island of evidence. EP1, EP4.
3. The question of Meta Ange trying to change the events so that someone can come back but then realizing that no one will be coming back. Furthermore if someone comes back that they wouldn't be coming back for her. EP4.
4. The question of which world is real and the emergence and validation of the Author Theory. Suggested at end of EP1. Question came up in EP2 and beyond. Verified in EP6, 7 and 8.
5. Beatrice being described as 'Endless' and therefore Umineko was like a shifting maze; endless stories are possible. Bernkastel's Letter, EP1 or 2 and the emergence of the Author Theory.
Kylon, you should know me enough to be aware that in addition of having realized the very same things, I got even more stuff. But how exactly does that change the problem at hand?

The problem here isn't that I wanted to see my theories confirmed to be happy, I clearly stated that I could be happy even if I saw them all denied, as long as the solution was really well done.

The problem here is that there are still huge holes in this story, stuff that doesn't have any plausible explanation or that only have lame unsatisfying explanations.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
There's more; the whole theme of the story is about what truth can be had when the truth is shut up in a cat box. Until it can be revealed both mystery and fantasy can be made to exist. And it's been said that the mysteries are beautiful; or that the fantasy is a lie to soothe your heart. Or that they are what gives rise to love between author and reader. This is what the story has been going on and on and on again. You don't expect EP8 to betray that do you?
The whole story was about a catbox that several main characters tried to break open. With a clearly implied message that the readers were supposed to do the same.

Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth.

If now you tell me that Ryuukishi wanted us to struggle in order to open this catbox only to tell us in the end that it was useless because the catbox will never open, then I'll have to conclude that Ryuukishi toyed with us, and I'll be very displeased.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, someone said he wanted to do an Umineko Rei. I was wondering about this and it seems to me, unless he actually said the word "Rei" himself, that he should do an Umineko Kai. As in "解式" or solution/explanation.
Well I wonder about that. But at this point why I should still hope?


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I don't see how 900t of left over explosives would be too unrealistic, actually. As someone I know from the army said; we're all overestimating the organizational abilities of the military. And to boot, this was a military that just surrendered and some of the high ranking leaders executed. I mean, they've left soldiers on islands up till 1975, even...
No, really no... and I don't want to go over it again because I've been discussing this "ad nauseam".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Here's the problem. The explanation is satisfying to you, but it wasn't to some other poster I remembered reading. He brought up that it seems Qilian was not a right solution because of the pinyin system that uses Q wasn't invented until the 50's or 60's, basically by the Communists. Taiwan never inherited that and so it should've been.... etc, etc.

However, I remember reading about that area and in the 1920's and it really was romanized with a Qilian. Because I was also wondering why they used a 'Q.' But for whatever reason they did.

So you see what's going on here. That guy who didn't know that answer, would still have this 'question' in his mind. I'm saying you still have this same 'question' to Ryukishi and you demand an answer. An answer he told you already.
Look. When an author writes a story with a mystery or with mystery elements he must expect that not everyone will be satisfied with his explanation in the end, the same way he must expect that not every person will like his story.

But he still needs to strive to give the best possible and satisfying explanation in order to please as many readers as possible.

There is no point in mentioning an isolated case that is even wrong. The epitaph answer was a clear answer and it was for the most parts a satisfying answer.
Yeah I actually I'm not going to say that it was 100% satisfying, there are still some parts that I find kinda unfair, but at least it's an answer that was shown clearly and that makes sense for a good 95%. I can be satisfied with that, as most people are.
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Old 2011-01-10, 04:55   Link #21433
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
The whole story was about a catbox that several main characters tried to break open. With a clearly implied message that the readers were supposed to do the same.

Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth.

If now you tell me that Ryuukishi wanted us to struggle in order to open this catbox only to tell us in the end that it was useless because the catbox will never open, then I'll have to conclude that Ryuukishi toyed with us, and I'll be very displeased.
And we were continuously told that the catbox could never been opened, and near the end cast doubt on whether we should.
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Old 2011-01-10, 04:57   Link #21434
ClannadDango
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I've just read through the previous post here and you guys seem very involved with this game. I also just finished going through other forums and talked to my friends from 2chan and here are my thoughts on Umineko:

It's possible that there is an ingenious solution to everything and if you solve the mystery correctly you will definitely know that you've come to the right answer. If you still question your answer then you still have not guessed right. (There are some old Chinese mysteries that don't state the solution, but if the reader duced right he will know he's right by the hided codes provided by the author.)

Its possible Ryukishi07 wrote a "Purple Flower" story and the answer is irrelevant and that the main purpose was the entertainment of the story.
(edit:I think as some of the other poster said, putting aside the murders this gives us an insight on the touching and loving moments of the family.)

It's possible like the graphic novelist, Alan Moore, Ryukishi is simply doing a deconstructionist story on the mystery genre and fiction in general. Much like how Alan Moore deconstructed the superhero genre and ushered in the 1980's comic age of grim, gritty, metaphysical, and thought provoking.

It's possible that like the theme of Lovecraft's work, fear of the unknown is the central plot and understanding the answer would drive one insane.
"The essence of the Mythos is that the entirety of humanity is insignificant on a cosmic scale. The human world is but a fragile bubble in an infinitely vast and indifferent universe, isolated by great gulfs of both time and space. Though we consider ourselves masters of all creation, as a species our limited perceptions allow us to see only a fraction of the full range of reality... The search for forbidden knowledge drives many, this knowledge proves Promethean in nature either filling the seeker with regret from what they have learned, destroying them psychically, or completely destroying the person who holds the knowledge." If we were to understand the truth we would drive ourselves mad. I guess sort of connected to Lambda's idea of a human or witch becoming a Creator, the present mind would not be able to understand it and thus go into a state of non-existance.

Even if you come to the right answer, if you don't truly understand the moral it will not be relevant to the reader.

As for the Schrödinger’s Cat Box, as a person who has studied a bit of quantum mechanics I am a bit suprised this was added to a Mystery story (of course it's also fanasty) but I'm glad it's being used outside the academic world.



In the end it's just a game. It's for entertainment, if the reader enjoys it, good. If not, then move on.

Apparently the lines are tightly drawn on the 2chan and other Umineko forums. But in the end Ryukishi07 does not own the reader anything or any answer. He's worked hard to provide us with fun entertainment. At the same time we the readers don't own him anything. It's the readers that bought the game and make Umineko so popular. In the end both Ryukishi07 and the fans are in a situation were each provides aid to the other yet does not own the other anything.

Oh and one of my friends who claims he's close to solving everything claims the extreme form of the Knights and Knave argument is needed to solve the mystery.

Here it is:
Three gods A, B, and C are called, in no particular order, True, False, and Random. True always speaks truly, False always speaks falsely, but whether Random speaks truly or falsely is a completely random matter. Your task is to determine the identities of A, B, and C by asking three yes-no questions; each question must be put to exactly one god. The gods understand English, but will answer all questions in their own language, in which the words for yes and no are 'da' and 'ja', in some order. You do not know which word means which.


In the end I think Umineko is a fun ride, though I still have to wait to play EP8 myself. But I think I will finish with a quote from the Zen poet, Seng-Ts'an.

If you want to get the plain truth,
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind.
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Last edited by ClannadDango; 2011-01-10 at 05:17. Reason: adding stuff
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Old 2011-01-10, 05:14   Link #21435
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And we were continuously told that the catbox could never been opened, and near the end cast doubt on whether we should.
To be honest, the whole thing about the catbox being unable to be opened was never really there until EP6; well, there were Beatrice's words about this not being a mystery, in addition to the whole anti-fantasy, anti-mystery deal. However, the general mood during the first 5 episodes, from my impression, was that we were encouraged to open it and that doing so was the right thing to do. I mean, even by EP3 Beatrice could have ended it when Battler decided to accept her (which is pretty much the "fantasy" end we're supposed to accept in EP8), but she wanted Battler to reach the truth. Then, by the end of EP5 Battler was able to do it - and by EP8 we know his knowledge isn't limited to who Beatrice is, but what happened in the island. So, he reached the core truth in Rokkenjima. He reached it by solving the episodes so far, applying some of the Knox rules. However, now we're being told all we were able to solve was Shaknontrice.
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Old 2011-01-10, 08:56   Link #21436
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
MMORPG players being satisfied just by the fact that they killed a strong Boss?
Have you really played a MMORPG before?

That could be true if you just spent the 1-2 hours necessary to kill a particularly strong endgame boss.
But if you worked 1-2 years to get an item, it means that you have killed that very boss so many times that it became boring routine, and then the only thing that could make up for that wasted time is the idea that you finally got your reward.

Now if we were just talking about the few hours spent in actually reading the novels I would agree with you. But I can't agree with that when I think about the 1-2 years spent on speculating and discussing about this story, especially when Ryuukishi asked us to do so.
Quote:
Off topic regarding MMORPG
Spoiler:
The point is that Ryukishi said in an interview that he will not be giving definitive answers. Has there been any indication that we would change his mind about this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
Oh and one of my friends who claims he's close to solving everything claims the extreme form of the Knights and Knave argument is needed to solve the mystery.

Here it is:
Three gods A, B, and C are called, in no particular order, True, False, and Random. True always speaks truly, False always speaks falsely, but whether Random speaks truly or falsely is a completely random matter. Your task is to determine the identities of A, B, and C by asking three yes-no questions; each question must be put to exactly one god. The gods understand English, but will answer all questions in their own language, in which the words for yes and no are 'da' and 'ja', in some order. You do not know which word means which.
That is kind of like the purple truth which was part of Bern's game in episode 8. The purple and red truth were similar except a culprit could lie with the purple truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
In the end I think Umineko is a fun ride, though I still have to wait to play EP8 myself. But I think I will finish with a quote from the Zen poet, Seng-Ts'an.

If you want to get the plain truth,
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind.
For this game, this might be appropriate:

Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.'
Kahlil Gibran


"a truth" vs. "the truth"

Sometimes meanings are lost in translation.

There is only one truth of Rokkenjima prime. Yet the number of forgeries can be infinite.
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Old 2011-01-10, 11:51   Link #21437
Kheve
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh by the way... don't get the wrong idea that I just need the answers and then I'll be satisfied. I was actually awaiting for the answers so that I could then judge whether they were satisfying or not. It's not like any kind of explanation will work.

I always had this hope that in the end I would laugh and acknowledge Ryuukishi's genius, and that would have been even more true if he were to provide a solution that was by far better than anything that I could think.
Bloody Well Said. If u like politics/intrigue/deep characterisation (ryukishi is a baby in comparison) i would suggest reading George RR Martin's Game of thrones (premiering as a hbo series middle of the year i think). At the end of Book 3, I assure you u will smack ur head n acknowledge the author's genius. Throughout the series u will also acknowledge the author's genius in many things but the final revelation will have u astounded I assure u. Back to umineko, the author owes it to the readers to give us a interesting read. Many authors break the mold when trying to surprise us. Some fail some succeed. Umineko is best described as higurashi is, suspense n thriller. Problem was ryukishi fancied himself a mystery author n on that count he comes out pretty shallow.
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Old 2011-01-10, 12:07   Link #21438
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Originally Posted by ClannadDango View Post
As for the Schrödinger’s Cat Box, as a person who has studied a bit of quantum mechanics I am a bit suprised this was added to a Mystery story (of course it's also fanasty) but I'm glad it's being used outside the academic world.
Oh yes speaking of the catbox, that is another proof of ryukishi's shallowness. The catbox as i recall was used by Schrodinger to REPUDIATE quantum mechanics. Einstein supposedly repudiate with 'GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE'. However ryukishi used this catbox to explain the process of the world...... The cat is either dead OR alive. It cant be both. The cat dead/alive is the result. The result of rokkenjima is CLEAR. Only 1 thing musta happened n this can ONLY be determined by the authors writing (whether we think its satisfactory or not is our right as readers to judge) Ryukishi however uses the catbox to show the process leading to the result which is fundamentally wrong. It shows ryukishi jes digged up terms, read briefly on it n then attempt to use it (to boost his ego that he is very well versed in the many different studies of humanities) to wow his readers. The CAT IS DEAD, as observed with the crater n eva etc. What ryukishi owes us readers is HOW THE CAT DIE and on that yes he can come up with multiple process if he wants BUT he should still give us a definite one and leave the interpretation/judgement to us.
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Old 2011-01-10, 13:26   Link #21439
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And we were continuously told that the catbox could never been opened, and near the end cast doubt on whether we should.
We were also told that everything was done by magic. But I trusted that Ryuukishi wouldn't pull something as lame as presenting a mystery only to tell us that the culprit was a witch. In this case my trust wasn't betrayed as it was confirmed that magic can't be used in the "games" and everything must have a human explanation.

The same way I trusted that Ryuukishi knew better than continuously telling us to find the answer only to tell us in the end that the answer is better off not being known.

And to be honest... isn't the very fact that the truth of Rokkenjima was never confirmed that allow people like the witch hunters the dumb goats and Bernkastel to create fake stories of heartless murder and gruesome insanity thus condemning the pieces of Rokkenjima to an eternal cycle of death and pain?

I can't see the good side of this catbox being left closed. it only allows malicious people to make their outrageous claims, smearing the names of all the people involved in the tragedy without anyone being able to shut them up for good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
Oh yes speaking of the catbox, that is another proof of ryukishi's shallowness. The catbox as i recall was used by Schrodinger to REPUDIATE quantum mechanics. Einstein supposedly repudiate with 'GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE'. However ryukishi used this catbox to explain the process of the world...... The cat is either dead OR alive. It cant be both. The cat dead/alive is the result. The result of rokkenjima is CLEAR. Only 1 thing musta happened n this can ONLY be determined by the authors writing (whether we think its satisfactory or not is our right as readers to judge) Ryukishi however uses the catbox to show the process leading to the result which is fundamentally wrong. It shows ryukishi jes digged up terms, read briefly on it n then attempt to use it (to boost his ego that he is very well versed in the many different studies of humanities) to wow his readers. The CAT IS DEAD, as observed with the crater n eva etc. What ryukishi owes us readers is HOW THE CAT DIE and on that yes he can come up with multiple process if he wants BUT he should still give us a definite one and leave the interpretation/judgement to us.

Well I must say that Ryuukishi never used these logic arguments in the right way.

Hempel's raven, devil's proof, catboxes

None of them was actually used for the purpose they were originally conceived. Ryuukishi gave his own interpretations, and I'm fine with that, the same way I'm fine with his reinterpretation of the Knox rules.
As long as it was made clear...


Quote:
t's possible like the graphic novelist, Alan Moore, Ryukishi is simply doing a deconstructionist story on the mystery genre and fiction in general. Much like how Alan Moore deconstructed the superhero genre and ushered in the 1980's comic age of grim, gritty, metaphysical, and thought provoking.
Alan Moore didn't leave any huge question lingering after the conclusion of his story. Watchmen was a true masterpiece that was conceived and developed with a care for every minimal detail (I wish I could say the same for Umineko, but I can't).

Which means: you don't need to leave holes in your story to "deconstruct" a genre.
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Old 2011-01-10, 13:48   Link #21440
Bluemail
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Has anyone seen a David Lynch movie? Umineko reminds me a little of them as they're some sort of puzzles of mindscrew which I think you can solve (not sure about it though, Lynch never comments much on the movies, unlike Ryukishi). For example, Mulholland Drive has kind of an answer arc at the end. It is a bit ambiguous, but I got the feeling that it gave sense to the happenings in the movie's earlier part. To do that I had to connect the pieces inside my mind. Again, I haven't read EP7-8, but after the example above I don't think giving no absolute answer in Umineko is as bad thing some people make it seem. As others have said, if Ryukishi has skills as a mystery writer, you won't doubt your answer much if it is the correct one. The theme of Endless was introduced very early, after all. Though I'm not sure if I'll be okay with what the fanfic writers will be producing...

I also speculated about an Umineko Kai a few pages back. I considered Tsubasa as the Rei of Umineko when it was announced, but there is no limit to how many extra discs there can be. It could even be a new series of arcs (When They Cry 5), exploring the episodes in depth, but I think that would be overdoing/milking it. If Ryukishi is planning to give an absolute answer after all, he still has the oppoturnity to do so.

But it is hard to say whether Ryukishi is confident enough about his tale that readers are able to make the correct deductions or scared to release his own (crappy?) answer, thus letting the readers have any fitting answer they want. At least I don't regret my time spent on this, though it might be shorter than for some of you (I started with EP4 released).
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Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-01-10 at 16:31.
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