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Old 2011-01-10, 14:40   Link #21441
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The point is that Ryukishi said in an interview that he will not be giving definitive answers. Has there been any indication that we would change his mind about this?
Hmmm... he definitely said he wouldn't give full explanations as in Kai, but what I understood from his interviews was that he'd give hints for the reader to test their theories, and guide them to the correct track. At the very least, as far as the gameboards are concerned, this has held true to a good extent.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I can't see the good side of this catbox being left closed. it only allows malicious people to make their outrageous claims, smearing the names of all the people involved in the tragedy without anyone being able to shut them up for good.
Well, that's sort of the point of becoming an evil witch or a good witch. That decision is up to you. In addition, if the answer is revealed, and not-nice things indeed happened, then that'll be how the story was remembered. Going by Ange's reaction when she read Eva's diary, I don't think nice thing happened.
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Old 2011-01-10, 15:22   Link #21442
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Hmmm... he definitely said he wouldn't give full explanations as in Kai, but what I understood from his interviews was that he'd give hints for the reader to test their theories, and guide them to the correct track. At the very least, as far as the gameboards are concerned, this has held true to a good extent.
This is true. However, what some people are wanting is a clear and indisputable answer for Rokkenjima Prime.

I have not seen such a theory nor do I believe that such a theory can be crafted given what we currently have.

Hypothetical: Would the epitaph solution have been shown to us if no one had come close to solving it?

I remember him saying in interviews that the full solution to the epitaph would be revealed. However, that was only after the taiwan theory was made.
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Old 2011-01-10, 15:32   Link #21443
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To be honest, the whole thing about the catbox being unable to be opened was never really there until EP6; well, there were Beatrice's words about this not being a mystery, in addition to the whole anti-fantasy, anti-mystery deal. However, the general mood during the first 5 episodes, from my impression, was that we were encouraged to open it and that doing so was the right thing to do. I mean, even by EP3 Beatrice could have ended it when Battler decided to accept her (which is pretty much the "fantasy" end we're supposed to accept in EP8), but she wanted Battler to reach the truth. Then, by the end of EP5 Battler was able to do it - and by EP8 we know his knowledge isn't limited to who Beatrice is, but what happened in the island. So, he reached the core truth in Rokkenjima. He reached it by solving the episodes so far, applying some of the Knox rules. However, now we're being told all we were able to solve was Shaknontrice.
You're right. But once he gained the truth, Battler immediately switched to the belief that the catbox should remain closed.

Also, lots of people were guessing Shkanontrice by EP3 so like lol.

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Oh yes speaking of the catbox, that is another proof of ryukishi's shallowness. The catbox as i recall was used by Schrodinger to REPUDIATE quantum mechanics. Einstein supposedly repudiate with 'GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE'. However ryukishi used this catbox to explain the process of the world...... The cat is either dead OR alive. It cant be both. The cat dead/alive is the result. The result of rokkenjima is CLEAR. Only 1 thing musta happened n this can ONLY be determined by the authors writing (whether we think its satisfactory or not is our right as readers to judge) Ryukishi however uses the catbox to show the process leading to the result which is fundamentally wrong. It shows ryukishi jes digged up terms, read briefly on it n then attempt to use it (to boost his ego that he is very well versed in the many different studies of humanities) to wow his readers. The CAT IS DEAD, as observed with the crater n eva etc. What ryukishi owes us readers is HOW THE CAT DIE and on that yes he can come up with multiple process if he wants BUT he should still give us a definite one and leave the interpretation/judgement to us.
To be entirely fair to Ryukishi, the character who first brought up the catbox was a WITCH, and it doesn't matter whetheror not an analogy is accurate so long as it delivers the intended meaning.

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We were also told that everything was done by magic. But I trusted that Ryuukishi wouldn't pull something as lame as presenting a mystery only to tell us that the culprit was a witch. In this case my trust wasn't betrayed as it was confirmed that magic can't be used in the "games" and everything must have a human explanation.

The same way I trusted that Ryuukishi knew better than continuously telling us to find the answer only to tell us in the end that the answer is better off not being known.

And to be honest... isn't the very fact that the truth of Rokkenjima was never confirmed that allow people like the witch hunters the dumb goats and Bernkastel to create fake stories of heartless murder and gruesome insanity thus condemning the pieces of Rokkenjima to an eternal cycle of death and pain?

I can't see the good side of this catbox being left closed. it only allows malicious people to make their outrageous claims, smearing the names of all the people involved in the tragedy without anyone being able to shut them up for good.
And yet, as long as the catbox is closed, everyone on the island is innocent until proven guilty. And even if people tell terrible stories, none of them have any proof.

Honestly, I may not agree with the story's aesop about keeping the catbox closed, but I'm able to realize that this conclusion was foreshadowed, so I'm able to be happy with it. The catbox is closed precisely so that the games can continue forever (Ryukishi seems pretty fond of the fact that people write forgeries irl).
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Old 2011-01-10, 15:40   Link #21444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
This is true. However, what some people are wanting is a clear and indisputable answer for Rokkenjima Prime.
Well, I cannot say they are asking too much, considering there were many hints all over the question arcs telling us what we saw on the gameboard wasn't necessarily true, and that there was something underneath all of this.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I have not seen such a theory nor do I believe that such a theory can be crafted given what we currently have.
That's precisely the problem, and what I believe is the source behind the disappointment in the story. People expected that solving the mysteries (i.e. closed rooms, epitaph, culprit, motive, Beatrice) would lead them/us to be able to understand what actually happened in the island. However, in the end, it seemed that all we could do was solve the fictional stories (not to mention many people found the answer to them distasteful and poorly constructed), and reaching the truth of Rokkenjima is not possible.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Hypothetical: Would the epitaph solution have been shown to us if no one had come close to solving it?

I remember him saying in interviews that the full solution to the epitaph would be revealed. However, that was only after the taiwan theory was made.
Who knows?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right. But once he gained the truth, Battler immediately switched to the belief that the catbox should remain closed.
Indeed, but wouldn't it have been better if we had also been made to reach the same conclusion (i.e. the catbox should be kept closed) by reaching the truth? In my opinion, it'd have been much more meaningful had R07 been able to pull something like that.
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Old 2011-01-10, 15:51   Link #21445
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah so why he was expecting us to understand that Rokkenjima was engulfed in an explosion?
Certainly you can't tell me that this could be reached without any reasoning or without the 1998 perspective. If he was expecting this it means he was expecting that we reasoned even about that part.
Then he should have expected that we speculated even on what actually caused that tragic event, and he should have expected that we were expecting an answer.
You're concluding that the explosion was a reason for us to find out. I've said that the explosion, coupled with the way he wrote the entire series, is clear direction that the story itself contains a big 'unknown' event. Understanding of this explosion is understanding that.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I didn't mean to say that there's been a switch for you, or for everyone. But I know that the vast majority believed in an answer.
Show me this vast majority. The vast majority I see is fine with Rokkenjima Prime remaining an unknown incident. Now...

HOLD IT because you've pretty much ignored what I posted until now.

This will be my third time saying this, but I'm not talking about the majority that believed in an answer to the Beatrice Mysteries... show me the majority that believed we would get an answer to Rokkenjima Prime.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Kylon, you should know me enough to be aware that in addition of having realized the very same things, I got even more stuff. But how exactly does that change the problem at hand?

The problem here isn't that I wanted to see my theories confirmed to be happy, I clearly stated that I could be happy even if I saw them all denied, as long as the solution was really well done.

The problem here is that there are still huge holes in this story, stuff that doesn't have any plausible explanation or that only have lame unsatisfying explanations.
HOLD IT Again. I refuse to let you pretend my position is that I'm fine without answers.

My position is that I'm fine with Rokkenjima Prime never exposing the incident. This is not ANSWERS. The list you gave earlier were about the Beatrice Mysteries. I'd like this list answered too, although I'm not going to complain very much if I didn't get the answers in EP8.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The whole story was about a catbox that several main characters tried to break open. With a clearly implied message that the readers were supposed to do the same.

Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth.

If now you tell me that Ryuukishi wanted us to struggle in order to open this catbox only to tell us in the end that it was useless because the catbox will never open, then I'll have to conclude that Ryuukishi toyed with us, and I'll be very displeased.
Ok, now here is what I'm talking about. This is not basic evidence nor basic truth. You just concluded that for yourself and applied it to everyone. You seem to not want to let everyone have their say, but you know what, that's not our problem. This is just like that time you kept badgering us about how the bomb couldn't be a bomb:

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It saddens me how everyone gives practically for granted that the "unfortunate incident" was caused by bombs, even so I believe there are tons of elements to understand that this isn't a likely scenario.
But this kind of general agreement leaves me too discouraged to start a debate, just don't say I haven't warned you.
Your understanding of the proportion of the disaster is also very far from the kind of destructive force that I think, at this point, is reasonable to assume.
You were insistent it couldn't be a bomb, no matter how we told you there were ways to cause landslides with bombs. You were the one not interested in debate.

Please... don't deny this basic evident and blatant truth. <-- Please, keep your intellectual violence to yourself. There is absolutely nothing to imply we were supposed to figure out what happened on Rokkenjima Prime, in addition to it being impossible.

If you're talking about figuring out the mysteries? Well...

HOLD IT I was never talking about the mysteries in my first post!

And in fact, if you're talking about the mysteries, then I agree with you, we ARE supposed to discover those. I just love it when people argue against you while you agree with them. It's very indicative of some sort of hatred directed elsewhere and a very close minded attitude.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No, really no... and I don't want to go over it again because I've been discussing this "ad nauseam".
This is what I mean by not listening. There are tons of ways to use TNT to trigger a landslide, especially if there are subterranean tunnels. There enough left over to evaporate the mansion and guest house too. But you don't listen because you came up with a rather incorrect reason why it couldn't be, so you know, even if Ryukishi gives you the answer... which... he already did... you wouldn't accept.

But you know, you're free to think this. However, spare us from your own personal theories, if we've already argued against them.


I love how you turned this conversation to about whether he gave YOU answers or whether YOU are satisified. But, honestly, I started this post, which was not even directed at you, to talk about how the Rokkenjima Prime incident isn't one of the answers of the Mysteries he's told us to try and solve.


I don't know why you had to argue with me, because your counter arguments are about something else entirely!

Now let's all use bold and italics and blink text to pretend we are communicating.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:20   Link #21446
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Has anyone seen a David Lynch movie? Umineko reminds me a little of them as they're some sort of puzzles of mindscrew which I think you can solve (not sure about it though, Lynch never comments much on the movies, like Ryukishi). For example, Mulholland Drive has kind of an answer arc at the end. It is a bit ambiguous, but I got the feeling that it gave sense to the happenings in the movie's earlier part. To do that I had to connect the pieces inside my mind.
Several differences here, though:
  • Lynch does provide answers to some extent, even if they don't make much sense, at least in his more coherent films (Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire). Even a confusing and ambiguous one like Lost Highway has a more likely answer than not.
  • Minor details do get cleared up in Lynch's works. The first line in Lost Highway makes sense, etc.
  • Lynch does not engage in public speculation as to the meaning of his own works. He's never said "People just don't get what Eraserhead is actually about. I'm sure they'll understand when they finally do." He just doesn't talk at all about what Eraserhead is about.
  • Lynch's "genre," if you want to call it that, is generally independent of rules anyway. At his clearest, he makes thrillers. The closest he ever came to a mystery was Twin Peaks, and technically speaking the murder in that show did have a clear solution presented, even if it was quite a strange one. We know who killed Laura Palmer. We couldn't "guess" it, but Twin Peaks never really claimed we'd be able to.
The problem with Ryukishi is he's run his mouth, and now he's got to back it up and he can't/won't. If "it means what you want it to mean" and "the answer that works for you is the answer that you should accept" were what he intended, he shouldn't have suggested there were in fact truths.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:23   Link #21447
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And yet, as long as the catbox is closed, everyone on the island is innocent until proven guilty. And even if people tell terrible stories, none of them have any proof.
The "until proven guilty" only works in trials. For what concern the public opinion everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent.

It would be a lot better if the public opinion believed innocent the innocents and guilty the guilty.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You're concluding that the explosion was a reason for us to find out. I've said that the explosion, coupled with the way he wrote the entire series, is clear direction that the story itself contains a big 'unknown' event. Understanding of this explosion is understanding that.
I can provide the evidence of his interview that Ryuukishi expected us to understand that an explosion happened. This proves without a doubt that he expected us to reason about what the Rokkenjima incident was.
So how exactly can you tell that we were supposed to speculate only to the point of what kind of event happened and not on what caused it?
This is completely unreasonable.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Show me this vast majority. The vast majority I see is fine with Rokkenjima Prime remaining an unknown incident. Now...

This will be my third time saying this, but I'm not talking about the majority that believed in an answer to the Beatrice Mysteries... show me the majority that believed we would get an answer to Rokkenjima Prime.
Okay fine I can't "prove" that the vast majority expected an answer on this particular issue. But for the life of me I don't understand why so many people wouldn't care when they cared about Beatrice's mysteries.
I gave it for granted because it seems a logical conclusion. Now I know that it isn't so for you.
But can you prove that all those people that expected answers for Beatrice's mysteries didn't expect an answer for the Rokkenjima's prime incident as well?
Maybe you're the odd one here, and not me.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
My position is that I'm fine with Rokkenjima Prime never exposing the incident. This is not ANSWERS. The list you gave earlier were about the Beatrice Mysteries. I'd like this list answered too, although I'm not going to complain very much if I didn't get the answers in EP8.
Well at least we agree with something. But if You don't get the answers within the story, where do you want to see them?
If you think it would be okay to see them in an interview then I don't agree with you again.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok, now here is what I'm talking about. This is not basic evidence nor basic truth. You just concluded that for yourself and applied it to everyone. You seem to not want to let everyone have their say, but you know what, that's not our problem. This is just like that time you kept badgering us about how the bomb couldn't be a bomb:
I would like to point out something here.

As far as I know I was the only one that understood the actual extension of the Rokkenjima disaster. And when I explained why it couldn't be a bomb, I explained that it had to be a small nuclear bomb to do that kind of damage.

Most people that believed it was a bomb, believed it was so because they didn't understand how big that "bomb" was. In fact I can argue that calling 900 tons of explosives packed together "a bomb" is technically incorrect.

And I can still argue that given the fact of a 1km wide crater, assuming that it was done by explosive was not the most reasonable conclusion.

Prove me wrong: Show me a human made explosion that created a crater as big as that, that wasn't caused by a nuclear device or a military test meant to simulate a nuclear explosion


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
But you know, you're free to think this. However, spare us from your own personal theories, if we've already argued against them.
Why are you talking as if I'm the only one that argue against the plausibility of those 900tons of explosives?
I saw a lot of people agreeing with me.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:25   Link #21448
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Well, I cannot say they are asking too much, considering there were many hints all over the question arcs telling us what we saw on the gameboard wasn't necessarily true, and that there was something underneath all of this.
Being a former member of the "Uncover the truth behind Rokkenjima Prime club" I understand their position as well. However, I looked back and learned that I just wasn't looking at the story the correct way. I admit my mistake. Will others admit their mistakes?
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
That's precisely the problem, and what I believe is the source behind the disappointment in the story. People expected that solving the mysteries (i.e. closed rooms, epitaph, culprit, motive, Beatrice) would lead them/us to be able to understand what actually happened in the island. However, in the end, it seemed that all we could do was solve the fictional stories (not to mention many people found the answer to them distasteful and poorly constructed), and reaching the truth of Rokkenjima is not possible.
At the very least, maybe he will give better answers to the Beatrice mysteries in Rei (if such a thing will be made).
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Who knows?
Well, I made that comment while thinking about the comment he made in a interview.
"This is a game between myself and the readers."

I wonder if we would have received better answers if he felt most of his readers had solved it.

Looking at the goats from episode 8, I don't think he felt many readers had reached the right conclusion. So he then decides to mock them? Maybe not the best decision there.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Keeping the catbox closed is evil, because it benefits those who did evil and clouds the reputation of those who did not in order to protect those who did.
Yeah. I'm glad we have your opinion which is equivalent to facts.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:26   Link #21449
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And yet, as long as the catbox is closed, everyone on the island is innocent until proven guilty. And even if people tell terrible stories, none of them have any proof.
The guilty party or parties have no right to be protected. Likewise, the innocent deserve to be vindicated of suspicion.

Keeping the catbox closed is evil, because it benefits those who did evil and clouds the reputation of those who did not in order to protect those who did.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:36   Link #21450
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The "until proven guilty" only works in trials. For what concern the public opinion everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent.

It would be a lot better if the public opinion believed innocent the innocents and guilty the guilty.
It would be, but that's not the world we live in. Derp derp goats.

Quote:
The guilty party or parties have no right to be protected. Likewise, the innocent deserve to be vindicated of suspicion.

Keeping the catbox closed is evil, because it benefits those who did evil and clouds the reputation of those who did not in order to protect those who did.
I understand that, but I can't help but feel that Battler knows of a very strong, very compelling reason why it's morally justifiable to keep the catbox closed; after all, he seemed to switch sides so quickly, adamantly, and totally.

Beatrice's actions throughout the story have made me suspect for a long time that exposing the truth would cause people to treat a good and decent person as a heartless monster, or that the truth being revealed will cause an even greater evil to happen, or something like that.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:40   Link #21451
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Several differences here, though:
  • Lynch does provide answers to some extent, even if they don't make much sense, at least in his more coherent films (Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire). Even a confusing and ambiguous one like Lost Highway has a more likely answer than not.
  • Minor details do get cleared up in Lynch's works. The first line in Lost Highway makes sense, etc.
  • Lynch does not engage in public speculation as to the meaning of his own works. He's never said "People just don't get what Eraserhead is actually about. I'm sure they'll understand when they finally do." He just doesn't talk at all about what Eraserhead is about.
  • Lynch's "genre," if you want to call it that, is generally independent of rules anyway. At his clearest, he makes thrillers. The closest he ever came to a mystery was Twin Peaks, and technically speaking the murder in that show did have a clear solution presented, even if it was quite a strange one. We know who killed Laura Palmer. We couldn't "guess" it, but Twin Peaks never really claimed we'd be able to.
The problem with Ryukishi is he's run his mouth, and now he's got to back it up and he can't/won't. If "it means what you want it to mean" and "the answer that works for you is the answer that you should accept" were what he intended, he shouldn't have suggested there were in fact truths.
Do'h I was supposed to say he doesn't talk about them unlike Ryukishi. I understand the differences, but it still applies for some of it. And I actually "guessed" (got some clues actually, well about two episodes before the revealing scene) who the murderer in Twin Peaks was.
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Old 2011-01-10, 16:47   Link #21452
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Several differences here, though:
  • Lynch does provide answers to some extent, even if they don't make much sense, at least in his more coherent films (Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire). Even a confusing and ambiguous one like Lost Highway has a more likely answer than not.
  • Minor details do get cleared up in Lynch's works. The first line in Lost Highway makes sense, etc.
  • Lynch does not engage in public speculation as to the meaning of his own works. He's never said "People just don't get what Eraserhead is actually about. I'm sure they'll understand when they finally do." He just doesn't talk at all about what Eraserhead is about.
  • Lynch's "genre," if you want to call it that, is generally independent of rules anyway. At his clearest, he makes thrillers. The closest he ever came to a mystery was Twin Peaks, and technically speaking the murder in that show did have a clear solution presented, even if it was quite a strange one. We know who killed Laura Palmer. We couldn't "guess" it, but Twin Peaks never really claimed we'd be able to.
The problem with Ryukishi is he's run his mouth, and now he's got to back it up and he can't/won't. If "it means what you want it to mean" and "the answer that works for you is the answer that you should accept" were what he intended, he shouldn't have suggested there were in fact truths.

Wait, I'm okay with almost all the points you've made. But I don't think that Mulholland drive and Lost Highways actually have a completely plausible explanation.

You can explain "some things", but you always find some pieces of the puzzle that do not match completely. And I think David Lynch himself admitted so.


I consider David Lynch an author that doesn't really care about giving a perfect explanation of all the strange events that narrates, but as you said, he never have that pretense.
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Old 2011-01-10, 17:13   Link #21453
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I understand that, but I can't help but feel that Battler knows of a very strong, very compelling reason why it's morally justifiable to keep the catbox closed; after all, he seemed to switch sides so quickly, adamantly, and totally.

Beatrice's actions throughout the story have made me suspect for a long time that exposing the truth would cause people to treat a good and decent person as a heartless monster, or that the truth being revealed will cause an even greater evil to happen, or something like that.
That's all well and good, but unfortunately not one of us has been able to reach that conclusion ourselves, as there appears to be no evidence which would allow us to conclude that.

But more to the point, I think I can advance the argument that it's always evil. If Battler, Ange, and Eva believed they were doing a greater good by concealing what they knew, they were simply incorrect (even if innocently so).

There are only two ways to resolve the "cat box" situation as presented in the Rokkenjima Incident:
  • Keep the box closed, make everyone stop speculating on it, allow it to fade from memory.
  • Open the box; that is, unveil and publicize the truth.
If the second of these is impossible, all that remains is #1, which is unfortunately implausible and undesirable (however...).

Any other solution resolves nothing, allows the goats to keep goating, and condemns both the innocent and guilty to an eternal purgatory where, as someone aptly put just a few posts ago, essentially allows them (or their memory) to be tormented endlessly. Everyone suffers. This includes, of course, any guilty parties (provided those parties did not escape, anyway) but also any innocents.

You know the old expression, "better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished?" It's sort of that, except revealing the truth in no way assures that the guilty party goes free. Indeed, assuming the entire truth is discoverable (which, admittedly, is not a known quantity), the guilty party will be identified and "punished" in memory.

"But they were protecting Ange!" Well, no they weren't; not knowing did irreparable harm to Ange (the adult Ange we see, at least, for whatever little we know of Ange-Prime may be different) psychologically. They may have believed Ange was better off not knowing, especially if the truth was difficult to handle, but ultimately it hurts her just as much and probably more not to know. Remember, the ol' goat squad can speculate on horrible things (your mother/father/brother are murderers!) just as much as they can soothe her mind. Ultimately, Ange is better off with the truth. If she'd know from the start she would have suffered at first, but she would not have developed a complex which complicated her future reasoning based in paranoia and survivor guilt.

Concealment is, ultimately, a cowardly act. It's the act of a person who fears confronting evil and enduring temporary suffering in order to do the right thing for themselves, others, and the world in general. There's a reason that "harmless" lies can compound into something festering and inescapable. There's a reason some churches encourage confession even though they don't actually punish acts confessed to (it's fairly rare that, say, a priest would turn you in for a crime you admit to in confession, though you might be encouraged to give yourself up). Sometimes just telling the truth and realizing that someone knows it is cathartic unto itself. Oh, there's consequences and pain, but consequences are the medicine. Sometimes you swallow 'em.

In the end you're dealing with the sin of a handful of people that is being spread around among everybody so it doesn't seem so bad. But in actuality, it's only making things worse. Everyone is equally guilty in the closed-off universe. To say "well, everyone's also innocent" misses the point that some people deserve to be innocent and some people deserve to be guilty. It was their own actions that put them there, and those actions are important to praise or condemn.

Finally, consider some wicked mastermind who knew this sort of thing would happen, and set up exactly this sort of scenario to posthumously eliminate any chance of blame falling on him/herself while also tormenting his/her victims even beyond the grave. That's simply depraved. Could you side with such a person? He/she can exist in a closed world. In a world of truth, this villain is powerless, even if some unsavory things come up about the victims. Is that unfortunate? Yes, but at least they're being maligned for their own sins, not those of someone else trying to make them look bad. Truth is certainly not harmless, but it is the greatest good in just about any value system you could apply to Rokkenjima-Prime.

Is there something, somewhere, that could be a greater good than this, such that concealing the truth is the only ethical and moral act? Yes. Can you think of one that would actually apply here? I didn't think so, and I doubt very much Ryukishi can think of one either. Of course, he need only do one thing to prove otherwise.
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Wait, I'm okay with almost all the points you've made. But I don't think that Mulholland drive and Lost Highways actually have a completely plausible explanation.

You can explain "some things", but you always find some pieces of the puzzle that do not match completely. And I think David Lynch himself admitted so.
Well, I can explain 90% of both films and feel fairly confident in that 90%. I can't explain the first 1% of Umineko and be absolutely certain of it.

And honestly I thought Mulholland Drive was pretty straightforward.
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Old 2011-01-10, 17:30   Link #21454
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Being a former member of the "Uncover the truth behind Rokkenjima Prime club" I understand their position as well. However, I looked back and learned that I just wasn't looking at the story the correct way. I admit my mistake. Will others admit their mistakes?
It depends on what you call a mistake, I believe. Many people definitely didn't try to think, as much as they jumped on the HFY, deny the witch bandwagon. However, I did have the chance to speak with some people who did have enough open-mindedness to try to see more in the story and see more hints. Yet, these same people expected to be able to reach the truth through understanding of the characters and the story.

I re-read EPs 1-6 before EP8 was released, and at the very least, by EP5 the mood still was that reaching the truth was the proper thing to do. Of course, something that was explained further was that the method to solve this was important as well, and this was mainly shown in EP5 on how you're supposed to take on a mystery, in addition to try to understand the fantasy as part of solving the mystery. Moreover, we have the whole issue about trust between reader and writer having more emphasis than ever. And, by the end of EP5, Battler reached the truth - not merely ShKanontrice and what happened in the fictions, but what actually happened in Rokkenjima (this is supported by EP7 and EP8). Thus, I don't find it odd some readers expected to be able to find the core truth of the mystery. Fun enough, there was much "love" in this.

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At the very least, maybe he will give better answers to the Beatrice mysteries in Rei (if such a thing will be made).
Personally, as far as the gameboards are concerned, I think he's covered what he needed to cover. At the very least, I do not need anything else for those.

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So he then decides to mock them? Maybe not the best decision there.
This is something I definitely didn't like in Chiru. At many points he had to rant, mock and sometimes even insult his fanbase. I know many of them/us criticise him (and criticism is not a bad thing), and many of them even bash what he's done, but they/we are still his fanbase (which is not even that big), and I believe he's the one who should have taken the high road and only answer those comments through delivering a good novel. Personally, I believe resorting to this was childish, and what he finally presented doesn't really back-up all the tantrum he threw in Chiru.
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Old 2011-01-11, 01:13   Link #21455
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Ok, wait. Maybe I should redefine my terms. I'm still getting the feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying...


There's the Beatrice Mystery... which does not include "what" happened on Rokkenjima but *does* include the "why." This is the thing we've been trying to reach since way back in EP1 when 'Maria' told us to try to find 'the truth.'


Then there's the What Happened on Rokkenjima Prime. This doesn't include the machinations of Beatrice, which includes stuff about the gold, the epitaph, the faking and the explosion. Those are all part of her mystery. This only includes things like Eva, Kyrie, Rudolf, Natsuhi or Rosa running around shooting each other. It also doesn't include the Mastermind if there is one.

Basically it doesn't include the things that Beatrice planned because those are part of her mystery. But it does include the random stuff that happened.


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I can provide the evidence of his interview that Ryuukishi expected us to understand that an explosion happened. This proves without a doubt that he expected us to reason about what the Rokkenjima incident was.
So how exactly can you tell that we were supposed to speculate only to the point of what kind of event happened and not on what caused it?
This is completely unreasonable.
Ok, so, with my new definitions, do you get what I mean if I say that the specifics of the explosion belong to the mysteries, but have nothing to do with what really happened on that day? i.e. the siblings and the whole family could've been having duels... or cake... for all that mattered. And while we may be interested in why the explosion happened, the explosion happening was our clue that the information of that day was erased...

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Okay fine I can't "prove" that the vast majority expected an answer on this particular issue. But for the life of me I don't understand why so many people wouldn't care when they cared about Beatrice's mysteries.
I gave it for granted because it seems a logical conclusion. Now I know that it isn't so for you.
But can you prove that all those people that expected answers for Beatrice's mysteries didn't expect an answer for the Rokkenjima's prime incident as well?
Maybe you're the odd one here, and not me.
I was being a bit sarcastic. Basically, I can construct a majority point of view if I just view it from my own vantage point. To really get answers we'd have to do a random survey...

As for why I don't care about what happened that day; it's not that I don't care, but it is one of the central challenges and theme of this whole story. A great event occurred that destroyed information and, without knowing the specifics that day, we are given clues to the truth behind it. Our job was to reach in and find that truth. In the end the specifics of the day were not important, only the reason and cause.

Imagine what Umineko would be like if he started off with what really happened... then Beatrice comes on and challenges you to find the truth.

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Well at least we agree with something. But if You don't get the answers within the story, where do you want to see them?
If you think it would be okay to see them in an interview then I don't agree with you again.
I'd be satisfied with an interview. But I'd rather he do it in a 'kai' episode. However, I don't think the two are likely. An interview is too short and he can't possibly cover everything. But another episode may be too long, and the fact that the character development for almost every character I can think of is finished. You can't make an episode of just a detective coming out and just giving us the answers.

However, I think he might give it to us in a shortened novel form, or a long TIPS-like posting. This Rei may be what he has in mind, since Rei is supposed to be things that take place after the main story conclues. Maybe this is why he left Erika alive and floating around... he could drag her out and have her explain to us what's going on, all the while insulting us. 8) Maybe he can do something with Will and Dlanor too.



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As far as I know I was the only one that understood the actual extension of the Rokkenjima disaster. And when I explained why it couldn't be a bomb, I explained that it had to be a small nuclear bomb to do that kind of damage.

Most people that believed it was a bomb, believed it was so because they didn't understand how big that "bomb" was. In fact I can argue that calling 900 tons of explosives packed together "a bomb" is technically incorrect.

And I can still argue that given the fact of a 1km wide crater, assuming that it was done by explosive was not the most reasonable conclusion.

Prove me wrong: Show me a human made explosion that created a crater as big as that, that wasn't caused by a nuclear device or a military test meant to simulate a nuclear explosion
I don't disagree with you there, but I see the possibility that the charges were either positioned or re-positioned to cause a landslide, in addition to vaporizing the mansion and guest house. Especially during the land survey that the siblings said Krauss had done to the island.

Spoiler for An aside about Krauss...:


Therefore I don't see the need find some other source of the explosion. A carefully planned system of 900T of TNT can get the job done. In fact.. probably much less than 900T of TNT...

Spoiler for Long, long discussion about Da Bomb:
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Old 2011-01-11, 03:05   Link #21456
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Spoiler for Kuwadorian:
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Old 2011-01-11, 03:21   Link #21457
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Spoiler for Kuwadorian:
I believe I speak for everyone who doesn't know what you're talking about when I say:

Spoiler for EP8:
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Old 2011-01-11, 03:58   Link #21458
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ok, wait. Maybe I should redefine my terms. I'm still getting the feeling you're not understanding what I'm saying...


There's the Beatrice Mystery... which does not include "what" happened on Rokkenjima but *does* include the "why." This is the thing we've been trying to reach since way back in EP1 when 'Maria' told us to try to find 'the truth.'


Then there's the What Happened on Rokkenjima Prime. This doesn't include the machinations of Beatrice, which includes stuff about the gold, the epitaph, the faking and the explosion. Those are all part of her mystery. This only includes things like Eva, Kyrie, Rudolf, Natsuhi or Rosa running around shooting each other. It also doesn't include the Mastermind if there is one.

Basically it doesn't include the things that Beatrice planned because those are part of her mystery. But it does include the random stuff that happened.
I understood that clearly in your last post and sorry for the misunderstanding.
But I still argue that the nature and the extension of the Rokkenjima incident could only be reasoned using the 1998 perspective.
There are really not enough hints in the Beatrice's mystery to reasonably conclude that such an event even happened. The last riddle of EP4 could be simply explained with a trap.
Therefore this is something that isn't part of Beatrice's mysteries that Ryuukishi expected us to reason about. And he did left a lot of hints about that.

There is also another thing that I would like to point out.
So far I heard justifications about catboxes and how the truth can't be known.

But there has to be an official explanation of what caused that explosion. And that explanation must be known to the public.
And barring conspiracy theories that is probably the truth.

I think that we, the readers, deserve to know at least that much.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
As for why I don't care about what happened that day; it's not that I don't care, but it is one of the central challenges and theme of this whole story. A great event occurred that destroyed information and, without knowing the specifics that day, we are given clues to the truth behind it. Our job was to reach in and find that truth. In the end the specifics of the day were not important, only the reason and cause.

Imagine what Umineko would be like if he started off with what really happened... then Beatrice comes on and challenges you to find the truth.
I could agree that understanding what caused that explosion isn't part of "the game". But from a narrative perspective I think that such a strange event deserved more detailed explanations. Especially considering that he teased us by showing people constantly call it the "unfortunate incident" without ever telling what that was.

Let me make an example. Suppose that an author decides to introduce a dinosaur in his story, a story set in our age.
That's quite odd, isn't it? But I think it could work, if an explanation on how that dinosaur still exists after his species was supposedly extinct millions of years ago was provided.

What really wouldn't work would be an author pulling a dinosaur in his story, without it being a central element of his story, and without any kind of explanation. There is just this dinosaur that passes by.

Maybe it would work in a Mel Brooks movie but not in a serious one. This huge explosion is definitely a very odd event. You can't throw it like that without explaining how it happened.


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I don't disagree with you there, but I see the possibility that the charges were either positioned or re-positioned to cause a landslide, in addition to vaporizing the mansion and guest house. Especially during the land survey that the siblings said Krauss had done to the island.
But there a few issues that I have with that.

the first is the fact that the incident wouldn't be an explosion but a landslide. and the victims wouldn't die in an explosion. This contradicts the EP6 TIPS that said that Erika died in an explosion.

The second is the fact that the crater was several dozen meters deep. So something around 30-60m. That's about the height of a Manhattan skyscraper.

A simple implosion cannot vaporize matter or throw it in the ocean. therefore to justify that depth you'd need to speculate that the tunnels were that high, or the sum of several tunnels one above the other can make that height.

So what is originally explained as a single tunnel becomes the mines of Moria under Rokkenjima. Where such a thing was hinted?


As for the explosions you showed me, all interesting stuff, but let me introduce you the largest man-made explosion crater in the U.S.A. (the wiki says it isn't the world's largest but I haven't found who beat that record. This is still reported as the world's largest on several sites.)

1280 feet = 390 m

In other words if that story of the 900t is true then Ryuukishi introduced in his story a non nuclear explosion that created a crater that more than doubled the one in this nuclear test.

And with less than 1 hundredth of the kilotons involved
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Old 2011-01-11, 04:29   Link #21459
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I believe I speak for everyone who doesn't know what you're talking about when I say:

Spoiler for EP8:
You lack love, bro. ;___;
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Old 2011-01-11, 04:32   Link #21460
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You cannot see the super awesome hyper-morphing metal mecha-dome without love.
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