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Old 2011-01-11, 05:21   Link #21461
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I could agree that understanding what caused that explosion isn't part of "the game". But from a narrative perspective I think that such a strange event deserved more detailed explanations. Especially considering that he teased us by showing people constantly call it the "unfortunate incident" without ever telling what that was.
Oh, no... if you mean by 'what caused' it you mean why was the explosion set off in the first place... I'd say that was part of what we were meant to find out. EP7 tells us it's something Beatrice planned for... and the why is in why she even thought of that. Supposedly. I'm not too sure she really intended for all of the deaths, similar to AuraTwilight... but... I have to consider the possibility her hands aren't as clean as I thought they were.

But if you mean 'what caused it' as in... who flipped the switch or ignited the fuse, etc... then... I don't believe that's relevant. All we know is someone did and the bomb did go off. The meat is in why Yasu (if it was her) set it up that way...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
the first is the fact that the incident wouldn't be an explosion but a landslide. and the victims wouldn't die in an explosion. This contradicts the EP6 TIPS that said that Erika died in an explosion.
Well not if the police became aware of the TNT used to trigger the event. And, the TIPS say that Erika may have become involved in the Rokkenjima Explosion Incident, not that she had to have been blown up directly by the bomb. So, if the landslide was natural (say due to the amount of rain) then they wouldn't have said that; they'd say Rokkenjima Landslide Incident. But if they could detect (say the residue of) the TNT and determined that, since it was probably all over the place thanks to 900T going off... then they would probably call it an Explosion Incident.

They'd probably call it an accident if they couldn't find any evidence of foul play. They'd chalk it up to some unexploded ordinance from WW2 finally going off or becoming unstable.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12877289
Quantification and aging of the post-blast residue of TNT landmines.


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The second is the fact that the crater was several dozen meters deep. So something around 30-60m. That's about the height of Manhattan skyscraper.

A simple implosion cannot vaporize matter or throw it in the ocean. therefore to justify that depth you'd need to speculate that the tunnels were that high, or the sum of several tunnels one above the other can make that height.

In other words if that story of the 900t is true then Ryuukishi introduced in his story a non nuclear explosion that created a crater that more than doubled the one in this nuclear test.
Which is why I think it must involve the movement of earth into the sea. Although I think the mansions themselves may have had special explosive attention.

http://www.mirthegreat.com/temp/umineko/explosion.jpg <-- this picture though shows a big round circle though. Is it from the anime? By the way, the way it's drawn, it looks like Toraian is right at the center... However, I have to protest that an island is very different from the desert. There's 100% more soil around your blast area in the desert, whereas the surrounding area to the island is... air.

Anyways, Ripple Rock is my example of setting charges smartly rather than somehow consolidating 900T of TNT in one spot and just hoping it blows up the way you want. (Which as you've shown, won't.) And the result is to shear a mountain, a mass larger than Rokkenjima, so there's still plenty of TNT left to play with after... for things that you really do want to vaporize and blow up...

I gotta imagine someone surreptitiously asked some demolitions experts on how to do things... say, a mercenary group called the Yamainu.... :3

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You cannot see the super awesome hyper-morphing metal mecha-dome without love.
... more than meets the eyes...
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Old 2011-01-11, 05:36   Link #21462
Kheve
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Then there's the What Happened on Rokkenjima Prime. This doesn't include the machinations of Beatrice, which includes stuff about the gold, the epitaph, the faking and the explosion. Those are all part of her mystery. This only includes things like Eva, Kyrie, Rudolf, Natsuhi or Rosa running around shooting each other. It also doesn't include the Mastermind if there is one.

Ok, so, with my new definitions, do you get what I mean if I say that the specifics of the explosion belong to the mysteries, but have nothing to do with what really happened on that day? i.e. the siblings and the whole family could've been having duels... or cake... for all that mattered. And while we may be interested in why the explosion happened, the explosion happening was our clue that the information of that day was erased...
Im sorry, I've listed ur contradictions in bold. Hate to butt in on ur conversation but I think you have gotten the cart n the horse reversed. NOWHERE in beatrice mystery was an explosion used (be it a bomb/relic/alien tech watever). The Explosion is definitely ONLY used in rokkenjima PRIME. Therefore I believe jann poo's argument is valid while yours is prima facie defective. Therefore all ur further arguments do not refute jann poo's argument

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah so why he was expecting us to understand that Rokkenjima was engulfed in an explosion?
Certainly you can't tell me that this could be reached without any reasoning or without the 1998 perspective. If he was expecting this it means he was expecting that we reasoned even about that part.
Then he should have expected that we speculated even on what actually caused that tragic event, and he should have expected that we were expecting an answer.
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Old 2011-01-11, 07:01   Link #21463
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh, no... if you mean by 'what caused' it you mean why was the explosion set off in the first place... I'd say that was part of what we were meant to find out. EP7 tells us it's something Beatrice planned for... and the why is in why she even thought of that. Supposedly. I'm not too sure she really intended for all of the deaths, similar to AuraTwilight... but... I have to consider the possibility her hands aren't as clean as I thought they were.

But if you mean 'what caused it' as in... who flipped the switch or ignited the fuse, etc... then... I don't believe that's relevant. All we know is someone did and the bomb did go off. The meat is in why Yasu (if it was her) set it up that way...
Uh no I'm talking of what caused the crater. Whether it's a carefully planned set of explosives displaced in an incredibly complex maze of tunnels, a single huge bomb placed below the Mansion, a nuclear bomb, a meteor, a landslide a volcano or an alien attack... that's what I want to know.

Additionally I'm not sure that we can confirm that Beatrice actually planned that explosion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well not if the police became aware of the TNT used to trigger the event. And, the TIPS say that Erika may have become involved in the Rokkenjima Explosion Incident, not that she had to have been blown up directly by the bomb. So, if the landslide was natural (say due to the amount of rain) then they wouldn't have said that; they'd say Rokkenjima Landslide Incident. But if they could detect (say the residue of) the TNT and determined that, since it was probably all over the place thanks to 900T going off... then they would probably call it an Explosion Incident.
Despite the fact that what you suggest should be called implosion and not explosion. Your explanation raises important issues.
As you said if this is what happened the only way it could be known as an explosion is if the police actually noticed the TNT residue and made it public.

Then how come it was considered an accident?
Kylon, you said it yourself. You'd need tunnels all around the place and you'd need explosives set in strategic points. Something like what you suggest can't possibly happen "naturally" or by "chance". And yet it is obvious that the official explanation is that no one is responsible, it's just an accident, it's not a crime.

It doesn't match.

Even if you suggest the official explanation is that the japanese military during the war created that system as a way to self-destruct the island (which I fail to see it plausible), the public opinion would still consider the Japanese military and the government responsible for such a blunder.


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
http://www.mirthegreat.com/temp/umineko/explosion.jpg <-- this picture though shows a big round circle though. Is it from the anime? By the way, the way it's drawn, it looks like Toraian is right at the center...
the first picture is from the anime, the second picture is something I made to give an idea of the kind of damage the island suffered.
Well to be honest... I exaggerated a bit... considering the distance between the Mansion and the Kuwadorian is 2km. the crater should be a little smaller than that, but I think it gives the general idea.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Anyways, Ripple Rock is my example of setting charges smartly rather than somehow consolidating 900T of TNT in one spot and just hoping it blows up the way you want. (Which as you've shown, won't.) And the result is to shear a mountain, a mass larger than Rokkenjima, so there's still plenty of TNT left to play with after... for things that you really do want to vaporize and blow up...

I gotta imagine someone surreptitiously asked some demolitions experts on how to do things... say, a mercenary group called the Yamainu.... :3
Emphasis on "smartly".

Anyway I'm aware that rocks and desert do not work in the same way and that rock blow more nicely than sand.

But that still doesn't explain the huge disparity between 104 kilotons and 0,9 kilotons.
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Old 2011-01-11, 07:45   Link #21464
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If I understood correctly, Yasu didn't actually kill anyone, did she? After all, she only killed people in the message bottle stories, but not in reality. She blamed herself because her actions have unwittingly led to a bigger crime.
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Old 2011-01-11, 11:30   Link #21465
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You cannot see the super awesome hyper-morphing metal mecha-dome without love.
It's been a dormant Transformer all these years...awaken, Rokkenjimas Prime!
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Old 2011-01-11, 11:45   Link #21466
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
If I understood correctly, Yasu didn't actually kill anyone, did she? After all, she only killed people in the message bottle stories, but not in reality. She blamed herself because her actions have unwittingly led to a bigger crime.

She did not. She was gonna, though.
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Old 2011-01-11, 13:10   Link #21467
Antera Caramichael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Despite the fact that what you suggest should be called implosion and not explosion. Your explanation raises important issues.
As you said if this is what happened the only way it could be known as an explosion is if the police actually noticed the TNT residue and made it public.

Then how come it was considered an accident?
Kylon, you said it yourself. You'd need tunnels all around the place and you'd need explosives set in strategic points. Something like what you suggest can't possibly happen "naturally" or by "chance". And yet it is obvious that the official explanation is that no one is responsible, it's just an accident, it's not a crime.

It doesn't match.

Even if you suggest the official explanation is that the japanese military during the war created that system as a way to self-destruct the island (which I fail to see it plausible), the public opinion would still consider the Japanese military and the government responsible for such a blunder.
Well actually, there can be an explanation for the self destruction system.
After all, if we believe Kinzo, then Rokkenjimma was a base not only for submarines, but for the special torpedo that could blow an aircraft career in one blow as well, in other words: japanese last secret weapons. Imagine that the american discover about these, Japanese would not have any chances anymore with their enemies knowing about all of their armory. And imagine if the American discover about these and decide to launch an attack on the island, the damage they could cause to the marines? And I don't think that japanese would consider their government as responsible. What you say is the same as saying that the actual government would be blamed in Germany if we found a trench full of jews bodies.
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Old 2011-01-11, 14:47   Link #21468
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Well actually, there can be an explanation for the self destruction system.
After all, if we believe Kinzo, then Rokkenjimma was a base not only for submarines, but for the special torpedo that could blow an aircraft career in one blow as well, in other words: japanese last secret weapons. Imagine that the american discover about these, Japanese would not have any chances anymore with their enemies knowing about all of their armory. And imagine if the American discover about these and decide to launch an attack on the island, the damage they could cause to the marines? And I don't think that japanese would consider their government as responsible. What you say is the same as saying that the actual government would be blamed in Germany if we found a trench full of jews bodies.
However, Kinzo said that no Kaiten torpedoes were ever actually transported to the island because there were no submarines available to carry them. There was never anything there to hide. The EP7 tea party said the explosives were brought there later for a different plan (and it was kind of weird how it was treated almost like an afterthought).
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Old 2011-01-11, 15:36   Link #21469
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Kheve View Post
Im sorry, I've listed ur contradictions in bold. Hate to butt in on ur conversation but I think you have gotten the cart n the horse reversed. NOWHERE in beatrice mystery was an explosion used (be it a bomb/relic/alien tech watever). The Explosion is definitely ONLY used in rokkenjima PRIME. Therefore I believe jann poo's argument is valid while yours is prima facie defective. Therefore all ur further arguments do not refute jann poo's argument
The explosion was hinted at as the ending to all four games. Once midnight happens, some major event occurs to end all the mysteries. Basically the mysteries at that point reconnect to Rokkenjima Prime.

Also, this is the event that kills Battler at the end oF EP4 and was the last mystery of Beatrice.

Also, Jan Poo's argument and my argument aren't really arguments that contradict each other. If fact we aren't providing arguments. I am discussing how the mundane matters of Rokkenjima Prime, the unconnected ones, do not ultimately matter in the story. Jan Poo is discussing how some of the answers Ryukishi have hinted thus far have not been answered.

You're not butting in, and everyone is welcome to talk on this message board, that's for sure. But at the same time, dreamed up contradictions shouldn't give rise to "prima facie defective" calls to stop listening to others.
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Old 2011-01-11, 15:41   Link #21470
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Spoiler for The Absolute Truth:
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Old 2011-01-11, 16:22   Link #21471
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Old 2011-01-11, 18:06   Link #21472
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Yeah dudes, it all makes sense now. Fucking lasers and shit.

And after Asumu faked her death she became part of the Strategic Defense Initiative developing space weapons. Rokkenjima was just a test site for WOLVES. Asumu used the space-based systems to blow up the island.

This is the truth of Rokkenjima Prime.

Asumu Beamô

Spoiler for Rifyu agrees with me:
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Old 2011-01-11, 18:54   Link #21473
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I actually liked this theory I found on /jp/:

Spoiler for The Rokkenjima kanon:
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Old 2011-01-11, 19:37   Link #21474
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Can we combine that with my super ultra mega bitchin' mothafuckin' MECHA-KUWADORIAN idea?
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Old 2011-01-11, 19:42   Link #21475
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I love you guys whether or not M or FM IRL. Anyway I'm glad people are still loyal to the series instead of whining on why the culprit wasn't reviled.
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Old 2011-01-11, 20:19   Link #21476
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Can we combine that with my super ultra mega bitchin' mothafuckin' MECHA-KUWADORIAN idea?
Hmm... How about that mecha runs on spiral power? As it was said in GL, the basis of spiral powers, in simple terms, is love. If it is poured with love, it brings salvation. That's one of the messages Yasu tried to teach the Ushiromiya family. However, they decided not to listen, and instead, decided to preach hate and thus, they became antichrists (which are represented as goats in Umineko). As opposed to love, hate made this mecha not bring salvation, but destruction. This is why Kyrie, in all of His mercy, had to wipe them all: 1. for humanity's sake, and 2. to make an example out of them. And thus, Yasu, the Lord's son, having many faces to Itself, became a beast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelation 13:1-2
1. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy. 2. And the beast, which I saw, was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion.
This is a very accurate description of ShKanontrice. The harbinger of destruction in Rokkenjima.

In addition, we also know:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelation 13:2
And the dragon gave him his own strength, and great power.
This is a reference to Kinzo (the dragon) leaving his vast wealth to ShKanontrice (the beast).

Then, finally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelation 13:4-5
4. And they adored the dragon, which gave power to the beast: and they adored the beast, saying: Who is like to the beast? and who shall be able to fight with him? 5. And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemies: and power was given to him to do two and forty months.
This is a reference to Kyrie's final test on the Ushiromiyas, and how they failed at refusing the advances of the beast, but on the contrary, they praised it for all the worldly treasures it promised to them.

This is when the best showed it's true purpose, it merged with Kuwadorian became a giant mecha of destruction, much like Ideon, bringing the Spiral Nemesis on Rokkenjima, but, at the same time, protecting the innocent - Eva and Battler, from this apocalypse.

How is it? Do you like it?
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Old 2011-01-11, 20:47   Link #21477
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Quote:
This is why Kyrie, in all of His mercy, had to wipe them all: 1. for humanity's sake, and 2. to make an example out of them. And thus, Yasu, the Lord's son, having many faces to Itself, became a beast.
Wait, but Kyrie is the Lord.

...

Goddamnit, Ushiromiyas, fix your goddamn family tree THIS INSTANT.
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Old 2011-01-11, 21:12   Link #21478
goldenlove27
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Why fix what's not broken? Without this then we wouldn't have a story. This is why the the game exist; to know your family tree or else Kinzo will talk you into Madness which will in turn have you give birth to Leonidas to whom you you can't call grandson or son b/c s/he is in love with their cousins/Nieces/Nephews due to their mental disorder. You know where this is going...
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Old 2011-01-11, 21:13   Link #21479
Used Can
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Wait, but Kyrie is the Lord.

...

Goddamnit, Ushiromiyas, fix your goddamn family tree THIS INSTANT.
Yes, Kyrie is. The scourge of God is not a nice thing to behold, even less to experience.

And, with this, I finish my tale.
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Old 2011-01-12, 00:08   Link #21480
AuraTwilight
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Wait so is Kyrie Beatrice? WHICH WOULD MAKE SENSE BECAUSE BEATRICE WAS GOD'S LOVE PERSONIFIED.

...daaaaaaammit.
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