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Old 2011-01-11, 10:46   Link #881
karice67
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Not really, I pointed that out to Magnuskn myself. I was just pointing out the various reasons that Yasaburo would want Alto to meet up with his father.
Even if there are several reasons, the strongest one is that Yasaburo wants Alto to return to Kabuki, probably because he believes that is what Alto does best (c.f. what he says about the gift/curse of an actor's blood). Going back a bit...
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki
Actually, he does, but the translation didn't convey it. As I noted in my previous post, Yasaburo told Alto that if he went to see his father on his birthday, Ranzou had promised that he'd reinstate his inheritance (勘当と解く). In the case of Alto's family line, the most important part of this inheritance would be that he will eventually become the leader of the Ranzou Kabuki troupe.

Though at the end of the episode, we find out that Ranzou HADN'T promised anything - all he knew was that Yasaburo wanted to talk about the succession of the Ranzou name. In other words, Yasaburo lied to Alto about the birthday present.

If the other reasons (e.g. getting Alto to talk to Ranzou) had been more important than wanting Alto to return to Kabuki, I think Yasaburo wouldn't have lied to Alto. He would have tried to get Alto to see Ranzou based solely on the fact that the latter had collapsed. Hence, I have to agree with magnus about the idea that Yasaburo's primary goal is to get Alto to return to Kabuki.

But Alto's reaction to Yasaburo's words is another matter, and I generally agree with you on that.

====

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I appreciate you making things clear, thank you I completely agree with how Swampy so eloquently put it. Simply put, Alto's real obstacle throughout the series was himself.

About your disagreement, I did say "at that point" in the series Going by how he reacted to acting in the movie in episode 10, it was apparent that he wasn't exactly fond of the idea. Maybe despise is too strong a word?
NP It was something I thought I should point out to magnus anyway, once I finally saw 11...

Hm...I'd argue that Alto doesn't hate or even dislike acting per se...what he hates is being seen as a girl just because of his looks and his performances as an oyama. What that translated to was basically everyone wanting him to just perform female roles, as we can see by the initial acting request in episode 10

=====

I need to avoid this place for a few days to get some things done, so see you all next episode with another commentary. It's Kawamori, Nakajima Megumi and director Kikuchi Yasuhito this time - I've uploaded the file already if anyone else wants a listen.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-01-11 at 21:40.
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Old 2011-01-11, 18:24   Link #882
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I think we are getting far away from my initial point, which is that I think that a.) calling in question Altos sincerity, in favour of Yasaburos highly biased viewpoint, is the wrong way to look at the character and b.) that Yasaburo is really not a very reliable person to take adopt his viewpoint.
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Old 2011-01-12, 01:34   Link #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Even if there are several reasons, the strongest one is that Yasaburo wants Alto to return to Kabuki, probably because he believes that is what Alto does best (c.f. what he says about the gift/curse of an actor's blood). Going back a bit...Actually, he does, but the translation didn't convey it. As I noted in my previous post, Yasaburo told Alto that if he went to see his father on his birthday, Ranzou had promised that he'd reinstate his inheritance (勘当と解く). In the case of Alto's family line, the most important part of this inheritance would be that he will eventually become the leader of the Ranzou Kabuki troupe.

Though at the end of the episode, we find out that Ranzou HADN'T promised anything - all he knew was that Yasaburo wanted to talk about the succession of the Ranzou name. In other words, Yasaburo lied to Alto about the birthday present.

If the other reasons (e.g. getting Alto to talk to Ranzou) had been more important than wanting Alto to return to Kabuki, I think Yasaburo wouldn't have lied to Alto. He would have tried to get Alto to see Ranzou based solely on the fact that the latter had collapsed. Hence, I have to agree with magnus about the idea that Yasaburo's primary goal is to get Alto to return to Kabuki.
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Actually with Yasaburo he may not be acting his own role at all, in fact the whole reason why he may want Alto back is because he feels inadequate as a Kabuki actor in comparison to Alto who he views as superior. He may feel as though he was just handed the position of inheritor to Ranzo's school because Alto wasn't there to take up the mantel. Also Ranzo is not his real father, all of these are things to take into account. Maybe Yasaburo is doing what he wants to do, after all unlike Alto he had a choice to let it go, much earlier. Also Yasaburo never once said that he didn't like being a Kabuki actor, just that Alto was better. When gauging a character you need to take everything into account, and try to look at a situation from more than one angle. However, judging by the end of the episode and by the end of the series Ranzo doesn't share Yasaburo's feelings and believes that Yasaburo is a great Kabuki actor.
I admitted it much earlier in the conversation.

@magnuskn the only reason why its even of interest to some of us is because it was Alto who was shown to be pondering over Yasaburo's words. That's how we were introduced to the conversation, through Alto's own thoughts, hours after the event took place. If Yasaburo was just shown to saying those words at the actual event instead of during a flashback, then one could easily write it off as nothing. But that wasn't the case here, the event was introduced as a flashback, and from a character that has a tendency to internalize his thoughts no less. For instance one could only realize that Alto was starting to change from episode 2 from his flashbacks, this case is actually not that different, except for the fact that what is said is controversial, in terms of the way that one looks at Alto's character.
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Old 2011-01-12, 04:22   Link #884
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
@magnuskn the only reason why its even of interest to some of us is because it was Alto who was shown to be pondering over Yasaburo's words. That's how we were introduced to the conversation, through Alto's own thoughts, hours after the event took place. If Yasaburo was just shown to saying those words at the actual event instead of during a flashback, then one could easily write it off as nothing. But that wasn't the case here, the event was introduced as a flashback, and from a character that has a tendency to internalize his thoughts no less. For instance one could only realize that Alto was starting to change from episode 2 from his flashbacks, this case is actually not that different, except for the fact that what is said is controversial, in terms of the way that one looks at Alto's character.
Well, to that I say: Look at Altos further behaviour in subsequent episodes. Does he act any differently than he did before and if you think so, do these changes come about from the conversation with Yasaburo? I'd so "no" to that.
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Old 2011-01-12, 14:14   Link #885
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, to that I say: Look at Altos further behaviour in subsequent episodes. Does he act any differently than he did before and if you think so, do these changes come about from the conversation with Yasaburo? I'd so "no" to that.
We'll bring it up when we watch the next couple of episodes.
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Old 2011-01-12, 15:27   Link #886
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Fine with me, I've am feeling pretty downbeat the last two days, anyway ( hence my short answers ).
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Old 2011-01-12, 17:26   Link #887
karice67
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I admitted it much earlier in the conversation.
My mistake on that part then - I only wrote it because it seemed like you were placing too much emphasis on the other reasons.

In any case, it seems like you are missing one of my main points, which is that some of the points you're hanging your argument on are incorrect, specifically the following:

"Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki" and that Yasaburo did not speak of Alto's "possible inheritance of the dojo(troupe)"

Spoiler for from...:


Including those incorrect points weaken your argument that magnus is "putting in words and meanings that aren't even there or hinted at", at least with regards to Yasaburo, though if you think they don't matter, fine by me.
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Old 2011-01-12, 17:43   Link #888
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
In any case, it seems like you are missing one of my main points, which is that some of the points you're hanging your argument on are incorrect, specifically the following:

"Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki" and that Yasaburo did not speak of Alto's "possible inheritance of the dojo(troupe)"

Spoiler for from...:


Including those incorrect points weaken your argument that magnus is "putting in words and meanings that aren't even there or hinted at", at least with regards to Yasaburo, though if you think they don't matter, fine by me.
Ah, I was wrong then, I apologize Magnuskn

@magnuskn you're not the only one I'm getting pretty tired right now, what with making sure that my classes for next semester are all put together. I wish someone would drop one of the classes I want already.
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Old 2011-01-12, 21:27   Link #889
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It's worth noting that the issue of Alto's "inheritance" is as much of an issue as Alto makes it to be. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing really stopping Alto from simply dropping by and wishing his father a happy birthday (or doing it by phone) and once again heading off on his merry way - nothing except for his inner demons, of course.

Also, while I'm obviously still unaware as to the true nature of Yasaburo's nefarious(?) plans, I will point out that his words do later strike a chord with Alto and prompt Alto's character defining monologue at the end of episode 23. So for good or for ill, you cannot discount Yasaburo's view when trying to make sense of Alto's character.

But this is a discussion best saved for that time.
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Old 2011-01-15, 07:31   Link #890
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Here we go for episode 12.

- I kinda miss the Zentraedi... and I mean the old Zentraedi, not the already completely cultured ones like Klan and Nene. They were much more interesting antagonists than the Vajra.

- I still have to lol at Nanases bento.

- Ogothwai is just as much of a gentleman as Vlrthwai. I hope he survived the events of next episode...

- At least the guns and uniforms of the Zentradi factions are color coded for your convenience.

- Ah, if only Nanase wouldn't have ceded authority to Ranka on Ai-kun... how many lives would have been possibly saved?

- And here, at 10:00, is in my opinion the moment when Alto realized that, yes, Sheryl truly had fallen in love with him and wasn't toying with him anymore.

- Beautiful eyecatch.

- If those Zentradi would have any sense, they'd go "Meltrans! Meltrans! Meltrans!" I guess they are still stuck in their pre-pubescent phase.

- I will give the guys at Satelight that the impromptu concert was one of the greatest scenes of the series... and one, if not the highpoint of Rankas heroism. Never again would she demonstrate the kind of maturity she showed here and in her decision to go against her brothers wishes to save her friends.

- And here we got that scene which I think Karice meant when she said that here lies the answer to wether Alto is sincere or not. Well, my interpretation of it is that Alto was emotionally distraught by Yasaburos manipulations, but got here a sudden inspiration that one can choose their own destiny... like those Zentraedi down below who stopped fighting when Ranka showed up to show them a better way.

- I think that scene where Grace ( pretty maliciously ) manipulates Sheryl into resenting Ranka is well done... but in the end it didn't come to anything. Sheryl never really became bitter about Rankas success, she only resented a bit that she herself didn't have that special power. And even barely at that.

- Well, Alto was forced by Michael to take note that Ranka has some feelings for him. And, yeah, I think he does reciprocate them somewhat here and next episode. But that didn't last.

- Heh, I remember well that this was the last episode for a few weeks and the boards went wild ( especially at Macross World ) over the Macross-type ship on Gallia 4.
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Old 2011-01-15, 23:28   Link #891
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Great episode. Went by really quick too. Ranka turned those Zentran into lolicons, ahahaha.

Not cool how Ranka stole Sheryl's gift though. Like magnuskn said, Michael forced a lot on Alto, but still... Alto accepted it too easily.

And I guess they keep the Macross 7 speaker attachments in stock at all times now, haha.

Awesome ED song, that was from DYRL, right? I only saw it once so I am not totally sure.

And now the part that confuses me... original Macross. I thought it was on Earth in Macross City!!??
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Old 2011-01-15, 23:30   Link #892
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Thats what we all thought. But it turned out to be another SDF-01 type warship.
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Old 2011-01-16, 00:40   Link #893
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I made an interesting albeit minor discovery when I rewatched this episode. I finally clued in to the fact that Grace tipped the rebel leader off about Alto’s escape. Although given the odds that were arrayed against him I doubt Alto would have gotten very far even if the enemy didn’t already know about him escaping.

I also find it interesting that I like this episode so much now when I found it so problematically ridiculous in the past. I guess I wasn’t as heavily steeped in the Macross mythos back then. (I found DYRL ridiculously cheesy when I first watched it back around when Frontier aired but found I liked it a lot when I rewatched it more recently.)

I wonder if Nanase is actually all that hostile towards Sheryl at this point. She mentions it being lonely when she and Alto aren’t around and seems to have included her in that ridiculously elaborate bento of hers.

I really have to wonder what’s with the skin tones of some of these Zentraedi. Most of the ones who have grown up among humans have fairly natural skin tones. So what’s with all these guys? Do the light fixtures on Zentraedi ships give off some sort of weird radiation or something?

This might be me showing a certain amount of ignorance, but weren’t the beam rifles a lot of the Zentraedi (including the rebel leader) using originally a Meltrandi design? I guess with the Queadluuns being used by both genders now perhaps it shouldn’t be surprising but it was something I noticed. (And on a vaguely related note, there is one RPG site I was on which seems to indicate that Queadluuns equipped with visually similar beam rifles appeared briefly in the final battle of DYRL. I haven’t been able to spot them. If any of you have, please let me know where they are.)

That transport that Sheryl is on is actually pretty cool in my opinion although I’m really not sure how its wings manage to fit inside of it like that. Take a look at them, they’re huge!

That’s all for now. I’m interested in seeing what some of the rest of you have to say on this one, particularly with regards to how it affects the discussion some of you were having after the last episode.
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Old 2011-01-16, 14:28   Link #894
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Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
Thats what we all thought. But it turned out to be another SDF-01 type warship.
Oh, so it's the same type of ship that was left on Earth by the Protoculture. I got ya.

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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I also find it interesting that I like this episode so much now when I found it so problematically ridiculous in the past. I guess I wasn’t as heavily steeped in the Macross mythos back then. (I found DYRL ridiculously cheesy when I first watched it back around when Frontier aired but found I liked it a lot when I rewatched it more recently.)
I find Frontier more cheesy now. When Ranka sang I just smiled and shook my head. Maybe cheesy isn't the right word for it, but it definitely a different feeling than the first time around.
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Old 2011-01-16, 15:10   Link #895
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I find Frontier more cheesy now. When Ranka sang I just smiled and shook my head. Maybe cheesy isn't the right word for it, but it definitely a different feeling than the first time around.
Well, you either buy wholesale into the Macross mythos, or you don't.
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Old 2011-01-16, 17:56   Link #896
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Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
Thats what we all thought. But it turned out to be another SDF-01 type warship.
I thought there is only one macross SDF...
How do u know it is a different type?

Who knows it is the real macross from dyrl...
Which is involved in some kind spacetime paradox ... (Maybe happend when minmay, misa, and hikaru went missing, and change some history flow)


It would be interesting if minmay still alive and sing together with sheryl on the next movie..Or next nyanclip...

That would be awesome!

Poor minmay, even though she's back there is no one available
for her execpt for richard biller (sms owner)
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Old 2011-01-16, 18:23   Link #897
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I thought there is only one macross SDF...
How do u know it is a different type?
Because the name of the Ship is SDF-4 Global, apparently they made more SDF type ships for some fleets, and this is number 4.
The original SDF-1 Macross is in the earth at Macross City.
Minmay, Misa and Hikaru were not in the SDF-1 when they went missing, they were in the Megaroad-1
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Old 2011-01-16, 21:16   Link #898
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Oh, so it's the same type of ship that was left on Earth by the Protoculture. I got ya.
No, that's not it, either. Humanity, after the original Macross, made a bunch of SDF-1 replicas, the SDFN series. This one is the SDFN-04 Global.

It was all kind of mysterious in the show, but they explained it in Macross Chronicle Magazine.
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Old 2011-01-16, 23:45   Link #899
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No, that's not it, either. Humanity, after the original Macross, made a bunch of SDF-1 replicas, the SDFN series. This one is the SDFN-04 Global.

It was all kind of mysterious in the show, but they explained it in Macross Chronicle Magazine.
Ohhhhhh...

Man you are so lucky, a lot of us miss out on so much supplementary stuff.
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Old 2011-01-17, 00:26   Link #900
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Ohhhhhh...

Man you are so lucky, a lot of us miss out on so much supplementary stuff.
Oh, most of the mecha stuff in Macross Chronicle was WAAAAY too difficult for me to read (and it took my an entire MONTH to translate the VF-25S page), but some of it is translated here: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/inde...howtopic=28072
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