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Old 2010-09-13, 01:29   Link #1501
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
No, not at all.
I disagree.


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These guys are teenagers and they're in love.
Which is why a kiss or two would probably have helped.

But Clannad was never about "hot and heavy" romance. Like synaesthetic rightly points out, Clannad is a dramedy. Romance is a secondary feature; it's not the driving feature of Clannad.

A hot and heavy makeout scene (like the one you referred to in that YouTube video) might clash with the typical mood and tone of a dramedy. At the very least, I see nothing lost by not having it.


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Furthermore, Nagisa and Tomoya become husband and wife. It didn't matter how often they did it, so long as the timing and execution were spot-on. For example, check out 3:59 - 4:04 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoAxGQUOD5Q

That's what I mean when I'm referring to "the sex make-out". It happens in movies and IRL all the time...
Exactly.

It happens in movies so much that it's really not all that special any more.

Indeed, one could argue that Clannad very effectively conveying romance without having to use such a scene is part of its distinctive charm; it's something that helps to distinguish Clannad from the commonplace and the typical as far as modern entertainment in general tends to handle romances.


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... and I can perfectly picture Tomoya and Nagisa doing this at some point, especially as a married couple and in the privacy of their own home.
Sure, I can too. It doesn't mean we need visual confirmation of it.


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I saw quite a few instances in the anime where appropriated sexual tension is omitted entirely. In retrospect, it's actually a bit odd to make Tomoya seem so chaste in here while he was much more lax about his libido in the source material. I think the latter is much more befitting of his character.
I saw nothing at all wrong with how Tomoya came across in the anime. He struck me as a good friend with a healthy sense of humor and a strong sense of self, and eventually a caring and supporting boyfriend and husband to Nagisa.

I respect how anime Tomoya maintains his composure when amongst attractive female friends; how he keeps his cool and actually treats Kotomi, Kyou, Ryou, and Tomoyo just as good friends.

Heck, I find it encouraging. Tomoya shows that a guy actually can be a good platonic friend with girls.


Edit: One thing to keep in mind here; the visual novel offers up different routes for Tomoya to take. Hence, visual novel Tomoya is not set on any one particular girl: it's up to the person reading the visual novel to decide where Tomoya will go.

With the anime, however, Tomoya is set from the very beginning to eventually end up with Nagisa. Tomoya's lack of sexual tension in certain scenes could be due to how he decided early on that Nagisa is the girl for him, and that's that.

His behavior around the other members of the female cast makes sense, and is appropriate, from that perspective.

Indeed, this is a strength of Tomoya's, that causes him to compare favorably to Yuichi from Kanon 2006 (in this one area, at least).

A common criticism I've read of Kanon 2006 (and hold to myself) is that Yuichi seems to shift almost absentmindedly from one girl to the next to the next, causing a certain sense of disjointing to Kanon 2006, and making each individual relationship look a bit weaker because of it (particularly the canon one that many would argue pales in comparison to some of the earlier ones).
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Old 2010-09-13, 16:21   Link #1502
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Exactly.

It happens in movies so much that it's really not all that special any more.

Indeed, one could argue that Clannad very effectively conveying romance without having to use such a scene is part of its distinctive charm; it's something that helps to distinguish Clannad from the commonplace and the typical as far as modern entertainment in general tends to handle romances.
I hear this one all the time. First of all, "unique" is not a direct translation to "good" nor "appropriate". I've seen it happen at least three times where Tomoya and Nagisa would stare at each other like they're about to kiss, hug, or whatever, but don't do anything. If they're even going to take it so far as to suggest something is going to happen, they should actually make it happen. It doesn't make sense to just tease the audience, pull the hook, and have nothing to show for it.

Secondly, breaking conventions for the sake of breaking conventions is stupid. Kissing is indicative of sexual attraction, which every romantic couple has some degree of. It's not even really a convention, it's just natural. Moments where Tomoya and Nagisa probably should have shared a kiss is instead replaced with more staring and random scene changes. They have a bad habit of doing this all throughout the anime, actually.

Quote:
But Clannad was never about "hot and heavy" romance. Like synaesthetic rightly points out, Clannad is a dramedy. Romance is a secondary feature; it's not the driving feature of Clannad.
There are action movies with sex and makeouts but the movie is still all about action. A couple of additional nuances is not enough to change the focal point of a storyline. Don't get me wrong, I'm not concerned with the romance or sexual tension in and of themselves, just the fact that they seem to fit very well in certain moments where they are instead ignored.

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Sure, I can too. It doesn't mean we need visual confirmation of it.
Yeah, you really need to stop thinking in absolutes. Technically, none of what we're discussing is really necessary since Clannad managed to be a great anime even without it. But there's always room for improvement, even in the best of fictional works.

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I saw nothing at all wrong with how Tomoya came across in the anime. He struck me as a good friend with a healthy sense of humor and a strong sense of self, and eventually a caring and supporting boyfriend and husband to Nagisa.

I respect how anime Tomoya maintains his composure when amongst attractive female friends; how he keeps his cool and actually treats Kotomi, Kyou, Ryou, and Tomoyo just as good friends.

Heck, I find it encouraging. Tomoya shows that a guy actually can be a good platonic friend with girls.
I like the way he handled himself around the girls too. In fact, that's what any normal person should do in a friendship. However, being a complete prude in a romantic relationship is a different story altogether. When Kyou gives him one little peck on the lips, he gets all nervous and starts blushing like "Oh snap, did anybody see that?" That's just ridiculous, especially for a guy like Tomoya, who's generally cool and composed.

Last edited by SJCrew; 2010-09-14 at 02:34.
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Old 2010-09-14, 06:24   Link #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCrew View Post
I hear this one all the time. First of all, "unique" is not a direct translation to "good" nor "appropriate".
No, but it can add to how memorable something is.

One of Clannad's strengths, for me, is just how memorable it is, and part of what makes it memorable is that it does handle things differently than how other animes do.

If Tomoya's relationship with Nagisa played out like any other fairly standard romance, I doubt that it would stand out in my mind as much as it did, and hence Clannad would not stand out in my mind as much as it did.

That being said, I would agree that Tomoya's relationship with Nagisa felt a bit too sterile or restrained at times, particularly in After Story. So I agree that a kiss or two would have been good to see.

... Tell you what, after thinking about it a bit, I think that your desired make-out scene might have worked well when it comes to the conception of Ushio. It might have been nice to see Tomoya respond to Nagisa's desire to have a child by him placing one hand behind her neck, kissing her passionately, and then the two moving to a lying position to a fade-out. The way the scene of Nagisa revealing her desire to have a child to Tomoya played out felt a bit awkward to me... and, yes, a bit strange for a married couple. It almost felt like Tomoya was thinking "Oh crap, I actually have to have sex with her now."


Part of what makes Tomoya's relationship with Nagisa resonate so well is that it's played straight; there's no fanservice to it, and that makes it feel more real and sincere to me. This is why I was a bit hesitant over some of your suggestions.

But the conception of Ushio is pretty darn important to this anime, so showing a more natural lead-up to it might have been very nice.


Quote:

I've seen it happen at least three times where Tomoya and Nagisa would stare at each other like they're about to kiss, hug, or whatever, but don't do anything. If they're even going to take it so far as to suggest something is going to happen, they should actually make it happen. It doesn't make sense to just tease the audience, pull the hook, and have nothing to show for it.
I agree with you here, to a point. The first time Tomoya and Nagisa is like that, it can be interpreted as shyness and exactly the sexual tension that you were calling for (part of sexual tension is about people freezing up from nervousness instead of acting on sexual desires, after all). However, there definitely should be an eventual breaking away from that, yes; a kiss or two on-screen would have been great.


Quote:
Kissing is indicative of sexual attraction, which every romantic couple has some degree of. It's not even really a convention, it's just natural. Moments where Tomoya and Nagisa probably should have shared a kiss is instead replaced with more staring and random scene changes. They have a bad habit of doing this all throughout the anime, actually.
I agree that it's overdone, particularly in After Story.


Quote:
There are action movies with sex and makeouts but the movie is still all about action. A couple of additional nuances is not enough to change the focal point of a storyline. Don't get me wrong, I'm not concerned with the romance or sexual tension in and of themselves, just the fact that they seem to fit very well in certain moments where they are instead ignored.
I get what you're saying.


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Technically, none of what we're discussing is really necessary since Clannad managed to be a great anime even without it. But there's always room for improvement, even in the best of fictional works.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. It's why I almost never give 10s to full anime seasons.


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I like the way he handled himself around the girls too. In fact, that's what any normal person should do in a friendship. However, being a complete prude in a romantic relationship is a different story altogether. When Kyou gives him one little peck on the lips, he gets all nervous and starts blushing like "Oh snap, did anybody see that?" That's just ridiculous, especially for a guy like Tomoya, who's generally cool and composed.
Ok, maybe Tomoya should loosen up a bit about simple flirtation. If that's part of your point, I agree. This is something that I liked about Yuichi in Kanon 2006; the guy was a smooth flirt, and it made his character amusing.
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Old 2011-01-08, 19:04   Link #1504
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So Sad

I have to admit i cried a couple times throught the anime there's just to much sad stuff i feel like one of those guys who lost their jobs so they spend their time at home watching soap opras
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Old 2011-01-12, 07:01   Link #1505
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Anime viewers of Tomoyo's butt kicking in first episode is way different from spectator's view of Tomoyo's butt kicking.
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Old 2011-01-12, 17:31   Link #1506
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Anime viewers of Tomoyo's butt kicking in first episode is way different from spectator's view of Tomoyo's butt kicking.
Sorry mate, I started watching Clannad from the second episode (I have a habit of doing that). But Tomoyo does that alot anyway.
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Old 2011-01-13, 04:03   Link #1507
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I pitied Youhei, I hope he had a girl friend in the end. Speaking about that. during the "chiisana tenohira song" .... which, fast tracked the story about 5 years, I think, the other characters , especially the girls are still "single", especially the butt kicker Tomoyo, huhuhuhuh
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Old 2011-01-14, 23:39   Link #1508
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I pitied Youhei, I hope he had a girl friend in the end. Speaking about that. during the "chiisana tenohira song" .... which, fast tracked the story about 5 years, I think, the other characters , especially the girls are still "single", especially the butt kicker Tomoyo, huhuhuhuh
well when u think about it were suppose to be focusing on tomoyo and nagisa adding any more to the story from other characters will complicate things especially in the after story where were suppose to be focusing on how tomoya was made to suffer not once by twice (can't say any more don't wana spoil it for anyone)
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Old 2011-01-15, 20:53   Link #1509
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Smile

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Originally Posted by tucker32 View Post
well when u think about it were suppose to be focusing on tomoyo and nagisa adding any more to the story from other characters will complicate things especially in the after story where were suppose to be focusing on how tomoya was made to suffer not once by twice (can't say any more don't wana spoil it for anyone)

I hope they make a "story after the afterstory" to see what happen to the others...
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Old 2011-01-15, 21:22   Link #1510
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That would be interesting. Something like "Clannad:Kyou Fujibashi" or "Clannad: Tomoyo's story" or something. Or just an in general summary of the characters lives after high school. Like showing Tomoko studying in America, Kyou becoming a teacher, and so on.
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Old 2011-01-16, 01:20   Link #1511
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Never gonna happen though. Key's done with the franchise.
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Old 2011-01-16, 02:20   Link #1512
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Never gonna happen though. Key's done with the franchise.
true nothing left to air since most of the fans have moved on and most likely won't get as much vieweing as it originally got
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Old 2011-01-16, 02:54   Link #1513
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lol what about Kotomi: After Story or Fuko: After Story
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Old 2011-01-16, 04:27   Link #1514
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Kotomi, yah. but I passed if it's fuko.
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Old 2011-01-16, 11:55   Link #1515
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lol what about Kotomi: After Story or Fuko: After Story
I was just using examples...

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Never gonna happen though. Key's done with the franchise.
Even so, it was still an interesting thought.
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Old 2011-01-19, 22:30   Link #1516
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I finally got the complete series of Clannad in the mail today
cant wait to watch it
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Old 2011-03-23, 16:19   Link #1517
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I also would've liked some more insight into the other characters. I realise it's likely to happen that people get out of touch after school, but it never sat really well with me how easily the other characters (mainly Kyou and Youhei) were forgotten. More so Kyou even, because she still lived in the same town.
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Old 2011-03-26, 14:40   Link #1518
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I also would've liked some more insight into the other characters. I realise it's likely to happen that people get out of touch after school, but it never sat really well with me how easily the other characters (mainly Kyou and Youhei) were forgotten. More so Kyou even, because she still lived in the same town.
You must not have watched After Story yet .
Spoiler for Some things from After Story:
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Old 2011-04-19, 12:06   Link #1519
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You must not have watched After Story yet .
Spoiler for Some things from After Story:
I have watched After Story. People showing up and getting the rare occasional scene is hardly what I call more insight
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Old 2011-04-19, 19:17   Link #1520
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Now that you think about it, we rarely got to see Tomoyo anymore after the choice (although there is an OVA dedicated to her chapter) so I guess that can make up for it. But would have liked to see what she was doing while out of school and not going out with Tomoya. Same goes for Ryou (same thing in Kyou's chapter, got a decent amount of attention there) or even how Kotomi is handling her education.
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