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Old 2011-01-08, 10:42   Link #3081
Manwards
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I've been a huge fan of time travel stories since I was a child, going back to the paradoxical conversation Rimmer and Lister have in the episode "Future Echoes" of Red Dwarf. Explains why I was so overjoyed by "Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody" and "Disappearance".

So, pardon me for merely skimming the conversation so far, but I don't see any significant ontological paradoxes in the film's events. In fact, I'd say the paradox of Kyon saving his own life (ensuring he is alive to later save his own life) is one of the most enjoyable things about it. Provided there is still cause and effect, the logic isn't broken, even if cause and effect are in a continuous loop or happening simultaneously. Everything has a source. It isn't like, for example, a lazy Doctor Who novel I read where the Doctor was given a potion by his future self and in turn later gave it to his past self, even casually pointing out that nobody had actually invented the potion to begin with.

The only major inconsistency in my eyes is that the future SOS Brigade seemingly erase the "Nagato world" from existence on the morning of December 18th, minutes after it is created, and therefore ensure that Kyon never awoke in that world later that morning and, two days later, ran the emergency escape program that led to that world being erased. That's a surefire paradox, a broken circle; but considering I haven't seen how it concludes (in the Vol. 7 prologue, apparently), I haven't passed judgement yet.

Even if it does end up being a plot hole, Tanigawa has given himself an easy out by having Kyon point out the inconsistency in time travel theory to Nagato, with both her and future Asahina telling him it's too complex for him (and therefore us) to understand. It isn't perfect, but hey, suspension of disbelief and all that. But considering how careful Tanigawa has been so far in making sure everything connects up, I do hope Vol. 7 handles it carefully.

Again, sorry if I've completely missed the gist of this conversation! I don't have a lot of time to peruse forums and the like, but this conversation is just too interesting for me to remain entirely silent!
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Old 2011-01-09, 02:46   Link #3082
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I can buy the "you wouldn't understand the physics involved" part insofar as suspension of disbelief is involved. Bizarre and counter-intuitive things happen in both Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, so I would not be surprised if likewise bizarre and counter-intuitive, yet ultimately self-consistent, things happen in "Quantum Chronodynamics" (not to be confused with quantum chroModynamics, the theory of quarks within atomic nuclei).
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Old 2011-01-09, 08:44   Link #3083
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I was watching on Retro-TV this weekend a once uber-popular TV show that gave me an idea of one sneaky way how Haruhi's writer could wrap up the series without contradicting any physical laws or skewed time-lines or flawed story logic laced throughout the show. This top-rated iconic TV show managed to literally and credibly wipe out an ENTIRE season like all the intrigue and drama in it never happened without losing fans! Does anyone here recall "Dallas"?? For me, the real teaser that the writer could use to keep us watching after cleverly hinting such for a few chapters would be the question, is it Kyon or Haruhi??
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Old 2011-01-09, 09:36   Link #3084
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Originally Posted by B2-Lancer View Post
I was watching on Retro-TV this weekend a once uber-popular TV show that gave me an idea of one sneaky way how Haruhi's writer could wrap up the series without contradicting any physical laws or skewed time-lines or flawed story logic laced throughout the show. This top-rated iconic TV show managed to literally and credibly wipe out an ENTIRE season like all the intrigue and drama in it never happened without losing fans! Does anyone here recall "Dallas"?? For me, the real teaser that the writer could use to keep us watching after cleverly hinting such for a few chapters would be the question, is it Kyon or Haruhi??
As one of who is likely only a few regulars on this forum who was actually old enough to be cognizant back when Dallas pulled that, I can safely say that they did lose fans. Even though the series went on another four years by dint of sheer inertia, and likely regained a few of the more rabid Bobby Ewing fans that left when he did, that was arguably the moment it jumped the shark.
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Old 2011-01-09, 19:28   Link #3085
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Originally Posted by B2-Lancer View Post
I was watching on Retro-TV this weekend a once uber-popular TV show that gave me an idea of one sneaky way how Haruhi's writer could wrap up the series without contradicting any physical laws or skewed time-lines or flawed story logic laced throughout the show. This top-rated iconic TV show managed to literally and credibly wipe out an ENTIRE season like all the intrigue and drama in it never happened without losing fans! Does anyone here recall "Dallas"?? For me, the real teaser that the writer could use to keep us watching after cleverly hinting such for a few chapters would be the question, is it Kyon or Haruhi??
"It was all a dream". You really think that would be "clever" or "sneaky"?
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Old 2011-01-09, 21:14   Link #3086
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"It was all a dream". You really think that would be "clever" or "sneaky"?
I think it would explain a HECK of a lot.
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Old 2011-01-09, 23:07   Link #3087
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I think it'd be a lazy cop-out But hey, it's been done twice before in Melancholy and Disappearance already right? The series still seems to be chugging on strong after that, so dream on i say!
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Old 2011-01-10, 00:05   Link #3088
quigonkenny
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I think it'd be a lazy cop-out But hey, it's been done twice before in Melancholy and Disappearance already right? The series still seems to be chugging on strong after that, so dream on i say!
Quite the opposite, actually. In Melancholy, it was "just a dream" for Haruhi, but it still happened, and was very real for (most of?) the remainder of the main cast, especially the audience POV character, Kyon. In Disappearance, the question as to whether it really happened is purely a matter of semantics, but it was still very real to Kyon (and the two three two others who visited that "world" for a short time), not to mention Yuki, who probably remembers the experience from a number of perspectives.
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Old 2011-01-10, 03:40   Link #3089
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I knew someone was bound to pick my joke apart lol

I just wanted to make a jestful parallel between the end cover-up stories for both Melancholy and Disappearance with typical "it was all a dream" type scenario's, where everything conviently reverts back to their original status quo or where ground-breaking events are rendered rather moot.

In Melancholy:
What? You saw the world in the process of being recreated? Nah man, it was all just a dream. I mean we still here ain't we?
In Disappearance:
What? You saw and lived in a different world to ours for a few days? Nah man, you just bumped your head and fell down some stairs, you were probably dreaming it all up in your coma.
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Old 2011-01-17, 12:20   Link #3090
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Originally Posted by brocko View Post
I knew someone was bound to pick my joke apart lol

I just wanted to make a jestful parallel between the end cover-up stories for both Melancholy and Disappearance with typical "it was all a dream" type scenario's, where everything conviently reverts back to their original status quo or where ground-breaking events are rendered rather moot.

In Melancholy:
What? You saw the world in the process of being recreated? Nah man, it was all just a dream. I mean we still here ain't we?
In Disappearance:
What? You saw and lived in a different world to ours for a few days? Nah man, you just bumped your head and fell down some stairs, you were probably dreaming it all up in your coma.
I think kenny was just trying to dispel the notion that those dreams were "a lazy cop out". The "dreams" are crucial pillars for the story, and are much more than a lazy plot direction. "And in the end, Kyon was just having a bad dream" is a horrifying way to end the story, but in Haruhi's dreams, the world better be praying.

But I get your joke. Shit, Kyon dreaming within his dreams? Reminds me of a certain movie out there...
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Old 2011-01-17, 13:46   Link #3091
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I think kenny was just trying to dispel the notion that those dreams were "a lazy cop out". The "dreams" are crucial pillars for the story, and are much more than a lazy plot direction..
I can't rattle them off, but there are animes that falter and fall under the weight of their own contradictions and Swiss cheese logic and cascade of detached events which really continue on under the momentum of more zealot fans, as I believe is occuring with Haruhi, even long before "Endless Eight". I think when writers leave it up to their readers to tie up loose ends and make rational sense of a sly unthought-out potboiler, it's time to review just where this roller coaster is going. Hit writers DO get lazy and take nondiscriminating readers for granted to swallow whatever thoughtless crap they shovel them to milk all from a cash cow as they could. I'm sure we all know favorite TV shows that just should've wrapped up and ended with their heads and drama high ("Babylon 5)" than continue into a pathetic senseless lame shadow of their former selves (orig Star Trek and Galactica). Long ago I doubted Haruhi was any "God" since she presented notions that contradicted her own existance and then this crowd of hyper-beings marching in and bewildering "reasonings" to excuse senseless situations and truely non-functional characters. To me, it's the sign of writers running out of credible (not necessarily plausible) story ideas throwing nonsense against the wall and hoping it sticks. I think one satisfying ending to the series' present bemusing confusion state is a "dream-bridge" scenario where all this action is actually occuring in a shared dream of Haruhi and Kyon. I believe Kyon is at very least the "generator" (or the clueless God) of such a dream because to my knowledge there's never been a scene where Haruhi or other characters are operating without his presence or observation. It would be a clever romance gimmick if this gimmick were a way for Kyon to eventually meet an unmet Haruhi "in the flesh" and still be as familiar with another asthough they were always together when it's all over (hope I'm stating this right). Of course all IMHO.
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Old 2011-01-17, 20:10   Link #3092
wistfulloner
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I can't rattle them off, but there are animes that falter and fall under the weight of their own contradictions and Swiss cheese logic and cascade of detached events which really continue on under the momentum of more zealot fans, as I believe is occuring with Haruhi, even long before "Endless Eight". I think when writers leave it up to their readers to tie up loose ends and make rational sense of a sly unthought-out potboiler, it's time to review just where this roller coaster is going. Hit writers DO get lazy and take nondiscriminating readers for granted to swallow whatever thoughtless crap they shovel them to milk all from a cash cow as they could. I'm sure we all know favorite TV shows that just should've wrapped up and ended with their heads and drama high ("Babylon 5)" than continue into a pathetic senseless lame shadow of their former selves (orig Star Trek and Galactica). Long ago I doubted Haruhi was any "God" since she presented notions that contradicted her own existance and then this crowd of hyper-beings marching in and bewildering "reasonings" to excuse senseless situations and truely non-functional characters. To me, it's the sign of writers running out of credible (not necessarily plausible) story ideas throwing nonsense against the wall and hoping it sticks. I think one satisfying ending to the series' present bemusing confusion state is a "dream-bridge" scenario where all this action is actually occuring in a shared dream of Haruhi and Kyon. I believe Kyon is at very least the "generator" (or the clueless God) of such a dream because to my knowledge there's never been a scene where Haruhi or other characters are operating without his presence or observation. It would be a clever romance gimmick if this gimmick were a way for Kyon to eventually meet an unmet Haruhi "in the flesh" and still be as familiar with another asthough they were always together when it's all over (hope I'm stating this right). Of course all IMHO.
Before you say Kyoani are running out of ideas, it would help to know that every plot direction was pre-planned from season 1. You will notice this from endless junk piling up in the club house even from the beginning episodes and their relevance to future (or past, with the episode jumping) events.

And Haruhi isn't technically a God; even Yuki and Mikuru have different views on what she is. Haruhi is just a being with reality changing powers, its up to you what you want to call her. Furthermore, this is science fiction, its as un-grounded from reality as it gets.

I like that extremely cheesy ending of yours, but unless Kyoani decides to throw a curveball I can't see that happening
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Old 2011-01-17, 21:56   Link #3093
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Before you say Kyoani are running out of ideas, it would help to know that every plot direction was pre-planned from season 1. You will notice this from endless junk piling up in the club house even from the beginning episodes and their relevance to future (or past, with the episode jumping) events.
That's easy enough to do when seven of the novels were written before the anime even started. (Kyoani aren't the ones writing the stories.)
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Old 2011-01-18, 02:06   Link #3094
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That's easy enough to do when seven of the novels were written before the anime even started. (Kyoani aren't the ones writing the stories.)
Yup, and that's exactly why they won't run out of ideas. Kyoani were just being smart leaving those small details around.
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Old 2011-01-18, 07:09   Link #3095
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Yup, and that's exactly why they won't run out of ideas. Kyoani were just being smart leaving those small details around.
Can I ask what happens if the author starts to run out of ideas?
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Old 2011-01-18, 08:06   Link #3096
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Can I ask what happens if the author starts to run out of ideas?
I imagine you'd get things like Anti-SOS Brigades. Or maybe he'd try to get away with using the same story twice in the same book, only with slightly altered plots?
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Old 2011-01-18, 08:21   Link #3097
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I imagine you'd get things like Anti-SOS Brigades.
Isn't that what the Computer Club is for?
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Old 2011-01-18, 10:38   Link #3098
keri
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I imagine you'd get things like Anti-SOS Brigades. Or maybe he'd try to get away with using the same story twice in the same book, only with slightly altered plots?


It took me a minute to figure out the second reference part.
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Old 2011-01-18, 10:40   Link #3099
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Isn't that what the Computer Club is for?
No, he was sarcastically referring to volume 9.
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Old 2011-01-18, 10:43   Link #3100
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No, he was sarcastically referring to volume 9.
I'm aware. I was making my own little joke.
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