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Old 2011-01-10, 15:29   Link #7321
KazePT
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post


Except that he never did anything nearly as drastic in the Zero Requiem. He was supposedly making himself an even worse person than Charles, and where he once he used his Geass with as much discretion as possible and on singular commands, now he was Geassing soldiers into complete obedience and making them into faceless mooks like it was going out of style, and also treating them like expendables. He also detonated Mt. Fuji and eliminated most of the Sakuradite reserves, and also likely causing destruction over much of Japan. He did this likely because he no longer valued his life, after having been betrayed by the Black Knights and apparently losing Nunnally. (He also intended to sacrifice himself by trapping himself with Charles inside Akasha prior to the Ragnarok incident.)

He could have easily made either Charles or Schneizel symbols of hatred. And his prior endgame, unifying everyone else under the UFN against old Britannia in order to defeat and recreate the latter was a much better one, and would have shed less blood. What's more, a much better way for Lelouch to atone and help the world would be to live on and serve in it, instead of making himself a martyr. (Not to mention that even worse war criminals are living on in the new world.) As for Suzaku, he knew Lelouch was lying about his direct responsibility for Euphie and Shirley, and even so, after he was somewhat responsible for FLEIJA for going off and everything that went with it: the millions of casualties, and also Nunnally's apparent demise, he no longer had any right to a grudge at all. (And of course, had he wanted Lelouch dead, he would have been the one to do it in the first episode of R2.) Heck, Nunnally would be pissed at him for keeping them estranged the whole time, and now, for good.
I think you're dignifying Suzaku more than he deserves but moving on...

Charles/Schneizel were respected by Britannia and images of power far too rooted in Britannians hearts to see them as true enemies. Lelouch wanted to destroy the "old way to rule" from within so that people that weren't renegaded could join who were with all their heart - Lelouch was not loved by anyone when he took the throne, so no one would empathize with him. At the same time, like you said, he didn't want to "live" and the Japanese force and all his allies already knew that he was a "prince of Brittania". With all of this he could "punish" himself by bearing all that massacre because it was the most dramatic and the fastest way to archive his goal.
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Old 2011-01-15, 04:19   Link #7322
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When I first began to watch Code Geass I have to admit that I believed Lelouch was going to be another cliche character with a horrible past and there for a while, I was turning out to be right. However the more I watch Code Geass the more I began to realize he isn't as cliche as I thought he was going to be. In fact he was quite the opposite, yet somehow in a way he reminded me of Kazuma from S-cry-ED. He's confident in his decisions, maybe sometimes a little too confident, but he's also got a side to him that is admirable. His love and devotion to his younger sister is unlike I've seen in any anime before.

I thought it was adorable, his love for his sister. Of course though she was kidnapped a few times and he couldn't prevent that, not everyone can. I have to admit however that halfway through the first series, I got a bit annoyed with Lelouch for some odd reason. Maybe it was because Suzaku was beginning to grow on me a bit more, possibly. All I know is that towards the end, I began to regain my love for Lelouch, and gain a new respect for him in R2.
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Old 2011-01-15, 05:45   Link #7323
azul120
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Originally Posted by KazePT View Post
I think you're dignifying Suzaku more than he deserves but moving on...

Charles/Schneizel were respected by Britannia and images of power far too rooted in Britannians hearts to see them as true enemies. Lelouch wanted to destroy the "old way to rule" from within so that people that weren't renegaded could join who were with all their heart - Lelouch was not loved by anyone when he took the throne, so no one would empathize with him. At the same time, like you said, he didn't want to "live" and the Japanese force and all his allies already knew that he was a "prince of Brittania". With all of this he could "punish" himself by bearing all that massacre because it was the most dramatic and the fastest way to archive his goal.
It's true Charles and Schneizel were respected by the old guard, but whatever conceivable advantage he had there was negated by the following: 1) the plan was by definition bloodier than something more long-term but stable, let alone anything else that had ever transpired before it more likely than not, and 2) people are not going to focus their hate on one thing for two reasons, you can't get people to agree on any single thing to hate to begin with, and people will get back to disagreeing with/hating each other anyways.

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Originally Posted by ViciousDevine View Post
When I first began to watch Code Geass I have to admit that I believed Lelouch was going to be another cliche character with a horrible past and there for a while, I was turning out to be right. However the more I watch Code Geass the more I began to realize he isn't as cliche as I thought he was going to be. In fact he was quite the opposite, yet somehow in a way he reminded me of Kazuma from S-cry-ED. He's confident in his decisions, maybe sometimes a little too confident, but he's also got a side to him that is admirable. His love and devotion to his younger sister is unlike I've seen in any anime before.

I thought it was adorable, his love for his sister. Of course though she was kidnapped a few times and he couldn't prevent that, not everyone can. I have to admit however that halfway through the first series, I got a bit annoyed with Lelouch for some odd reason. Maybe it was because Suzaku was beginning to grow on me a bit more, possibly. All I know is that towards the end, I began to regain my love for Lelouch, and gain a new respect for him in R2.
He lost the plot near the end of R2, really, though understandably so since he had lost everything as far as he knew.
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Old 2011-01-17, 14:39   Link #7324
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He lost the plot near the end of R2, really, though understandably so since he had lost everything as far as he knew.
I thought he followed his belief of "those who shoot should be prepared to shot at."

His martyrdom habit is quite consistent throughout the series.
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Old 2011-01-17, 15:58   Link #7325
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I thought he followed his belief of "those who shoot should be prepared to shot at."

His martyrdom habit is quite consistent throughout the series.
He was simply always prepared to die if it came to that. Wasn't necessarily a given.
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Old 2011-01-17, 19:46   Link #7326
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post

He could have easily made either Charles or Schneizel symbols of hatred. And his prior endgame, unifying everyone else under the UFN against old Britannia in order to defeat and recreate the latter was a much better one, and would have shed less blood. What's more, a much better way for Lelouch to atone and help the world would be to live on and serve in it, instead of making himself a martyr. (Not to mention that even worse war criminals are living on in the new world.)
You state that as if it were a fact...

First of all, Schneizel and Charles are symbols of Britannia's royal family, and as such they are symbols of Britannia itself. They are part of Britannian culture. It would take a lot to turn them into symbols of hatred.

Secondly, what makes you think Britannians would listen to a terrorist, much less turn against their rightful rulers based on nothing but the propaganda from said terrorist?

Going by his original plan, losses would have been in the millions if not billions of lives. Britannian resistance in Area 11 was fierced because it was considered Britannian territory, and it had only been colonized 11 years. One can only imagine the type of resistance the BKs would encounter once they tried to invade the Americas, which would be necessary to defeat Britannia.

This is assuming Britannia doesn't just crush the UFN on every front fairly easily and forces the original BKs back into hiding.

Britannia is like a WWII America, but unrestricted by morality or pretty much anything really. The Military Industrial complex is the largest employer in the empire, with factories pumping out Sutherlands as if they were television sets and kids lining up to join the army or become Knights and hopefully get promoted into the nobility. Britannian soldiers probably have better training and better equipment than Black Knights.

Assuming the UFN can match Britannia in every aspect, the war would be a massive stalemate on many fronts, and the losses would be tremendous. Not to mention that Schneizel would just Flaija the UFN into oblivion eventually.
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Old 2011-01-18, 00:04   Link #7327
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By that time, Zero had established a legitimate international body in the UFN, and was no longer a terrorist per se. (Lest we forget, the original Israeli revolutionaries back in the '30s/'40s were also considered terrorists at the time.)

And as I've mentioned before, Lelouch could quite possibly have went for Schneizel before he got a chance to launch Damocles into the sky. Other than that, the UFN had a favorable attack force advantage, considering Lelouch resorted to blowing up Mt. Fuji underneath them in the show as it happened.

Beyond all that, just consider that per Lelouch's plan, he would have had to be worse than both of them, which surely would have implied even more damage.
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Old 2011-01-18, 02:34   Link #7328
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Beyond all that, just consider that per Lelouch's plan, he would have had to be worse than both of them, which surely would have implied even more damage.
No, people just needed to think he was worse, but I think that discussion is getting old - we all have rather firm opinions on the matter by now.

I'll just say that why I can easily see Lelouch being "worse" than Schneizel (who the epilogue hints would have gotten less hate than the weapon he created, anyway), I don't think the same necessarily goes for Charles, who often just leaned back and let other people do shitty things, and who had had years and years to cause damage that may not have left such a big impression in the long-run, but was still pretty bad . Neither of the two went out of their way to appear "evil" or would have used a Geass for that.

Lelouch definitely did bad things as Emperor, but I doubt he drowned puppies. Nobles, probably, but not puppies.
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Old 2011-01-18, 04:27   Link #7329
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He made EVERYONE hate him. Take that as you will.
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Old 2011-01-18, 11:10   Link #7330
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Lelouch definitely did bad things as Emperor, but I doubt he drowned puppies. Nobles, probably, but not puppies.
He kept kicking dead puppies though, which is just as bad. Am I the only one that thinks Shirley would have bitch-slapped Lelouch for choosing the way he did? Not only Shirley, but Euphemia too. What he was doing was completely contradictory to what he wanted to accomplish.
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Old 2011-01-18, 11:32   Link #7331
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He kept kicking dead puppies though, which is just as bad. Am I the only one that thinks Shirley would have bitch-slapped Lelouch for choosing the way he did? Not only Shirley, but Euphemia too. What he was doing was completely contradictory to what he wanted to accomplish.
Exactly. Hence my assertion that he almost completely snapped following the events of Turn 19.
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Old 2011-01-18, 12:16   Link #7332
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He kept kicking dead puppies though, which is just as bad. Am I the only one that thinks Shirley would have bitch-slapped Lelouch for choosing the way he did? Not only Shirley, but Euphemia too. What he was doing was completely contradictory to what he wanted to accomplish.
I expect that Shirley would not have been pleased with what Lelouch did in her name.
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Old 2011-01-18, 12:27   Link #7333
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What he was doing was completely contradictory to what he wanted to accomplish.
Indeed, but you can easily extend that contradiction and that irony to Lelouch's behavior in general.

He became Zero and chose to take the "path of carnage" for the sake of creating a "kind world" for his sister...someone who never asked, much less wanted, her brother to do such a thing. Nunnally's kind world, from her perspective, would have been to live in peace with her brother at Ashford and have fun with everyone else during school festivals. No rebellion, no revenge, etc.

And even in early R2, Lelouch openly declared that he would become evil in order to defeat a greater evil...which both C.C. and Xingke considered a paradox, since it can be argued that evil would nevertheless remain at the end of such a path.

In other words, you are in fact correct. Shirley and Euphemia -not to mention Nunnally herself- would be disgusted by Lelouch's actions. All of them represented a completely different way of doing things from the beginning, not just in terms of what Zero Requiem turned out to be. But, at the same time, they all knew him well enough that, sooner or later, I can imagine both of them wouldn't be entirely unsympathetic to eventually recognizing his original intentions as being good, at heart, regardless of how horrible his actions turned out to be.
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Old 2011-01-18, 12:43   Link #7334
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In the long run of what he was originally doing, he wasn't permanently consigning himself to the dark path - it was more like he was doing those things out of necessity, or to an extent, because of his own issues. Because not long before the Zero Requiem, he actually succeeded in setting up a legitimate front for liberation against the Britannian empire.
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Old 2011-01-18, 13:13   Link #7335
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Hm, I have to wonder... wait, does this belong into the Lelouch or Suzaku thread? Oh well, it's about how Lelouch's command works, so it should be all right.

In episode 20 (invasion by China), when Suzaku was pretty sure he was going to die... why didn't the Geass kick in until after Euphie explicity told him to "live"? It's like he didn't realize he was about to die before, but that doesn't really make sense considering what he asked of Euphie. So... was Lelouch's command having a random day or am I missing something?
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Old 2011-01-18, 14:25   Link #7336
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In other words, you are in fact correct.
Of course.

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I expect that Shirley would not have been pleased with what Lelouch did in her name.
I was actually referring to him going against the world and becoming a symbol of hatred.

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So... was Lelouch's command having a random day or am I missing something?
It probably had to do with his geass connection that was utterly scrapped in R2. To say the least, yes Lelouch's command was having an off day. I blame the tenacity of Euphemia as well as the writers.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:15   Link #7337
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It probably had to do with his geass connection that was utterly scrapped in R2. To say the least, yes Lelouch's command was having an off day. I blame the tenacity of Euphemia as well as the writers.
Ha, all right, thank you - I thought I'd overlooked something. In that case, I'll just tell myself that because Suzaku is Hulk, Geass takes a year to properly take effect on him! In other words, if I ever decide to put that scene into a fanfic, I shall ignore all logic issues on purpose, because I refuse to be trolled by the writers.

As for Euphie and Shirley... nah, slapping is for Kallen! Euphie would make him feel bad just by being so utterly Euphie, and Shirley would go find him a therapist or something.
...Echem. Actually, I think it'd depend a lot on the circumstances. I don't think they have it in them to be honestly "disgusted" with him, though - but that's just me.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:27   Link #7338
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There is no black and white, or good and evil in CG or our world for that matter Azul. The legitimacy of Lelouch's long term effort to bring down Britannia is irrelevant when it would drag the whole world into a war that a) would cause massive destruction all around the world b) cost millions if not billions of lives and c) he could very well lose.

That path is worse than not doing anything, or having a Zero Requiem IMO.

Perhaps the only righteous way of changing the system was Suzaku's, which admittedly was very unrealistic.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:36   Link #7339
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Actually, I would say both Suzaku's and Lelouch's way of thinking could be completely justified in a variety of different "real world" situations, depending on your principles and philosophy. Personally though, I'd be more inclined to change things from within if I had to make a choice. Revolutions aren't quite as romantic in reality as they are in fiction, to say the least, even if they are sometimes necessary. However, often they work hand-in-hand with a series of internal changes that make them possible in the first place.

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In episode 20 (invasion by China), when Suzaku was pretty sure he was going to die... why didn't the Geass kick in until after Euphie explicity told him to "live"? It's like he didn't realize he was about to die before, but that doesn't really make sense considering what he asked of Euphie. So... was Lelouch's command having a random day or am I missing something?
To be honest, I don't think that particular incident in episode 20 had anything to do with Suzaku's intended connection to the Geass. I'd call it a little bit of dramatic and artistic license for the sake of making Euphemia herself trigger that effect through her words rather than just the situation itself.

But if you've noticed, even in episode 18 of R2 Suzaku was able to think about giving up and dying for a few moments before the "Live" command kicked in, so there's a possibility of delaying the effect for at least a minute or two without being too inconsistent. Sometimes it's immediate, yes, but you could argue that depends on how Suzaku's own thought process works.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:39   Link #7340
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Perhaps the only righteous way of changing the system was Suzaku's, which admittedly was very unrealistic.
Aiding the oppressors in the futile hope that it will make things better? Not my kind of righteousness - I'd rather stick with Lelouch, then. He's somewhere between Schneizel's cold utilitiarianism and Suzaku's twisted "the means justify the end", and while his way of doing things is highly questionable, I at least think he has the right concerns, generally speaking. He just sucks when it comes to the way he deals with them.
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