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Old 2011-01-17, 09:13   Link #1941
Darknemo2000
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Both are rumors its not like everyone would see the tape just like not everyone will see the hickey but both are based on the girl having sex.

For all that matter the tape could be seen just a by a bunch of guys before Touru destroyed and it didnt spread out and became just a rumor, just like in Shou's case it would be a rumopur based on hickey and both have the very same thing in it - the girl having sex, just that the finishing event is that Shou had her relationship thrown into her face and got stepped on, while Yuki is just assuming things and we do not know anything what really happened just her POV which we already witnessed is not a reliable one at all.

I of course assume that the tape did not spread out, if it did then of course it would beat the severeness of the hickey rumor but in itself both are similar as rumors center on the very same thing and no one really know its true but the ones who saw that (tape and hickey) with their own eyes.

And Rainrir such tape still hurts. Hurst a lot. Even if she did out of love in a loving relationship of that time. It hurts a hell lot out of the boyfriend who is with her at this time. If you think otherwise then you never experienced it.

A couple of my friends were going together steady for two years but then a tape of her adventures with her previous boyfriend showed up on Internet (she was in college first year he was on his third) and it became really screwy between them (though to tell the truth I never thought they would work out even without it). It however lead to break up (not right away, but it creates a mental tension that you cannot just forget this easily to write it off).

Personally I saw the tape myself and it barely showed anything as she was lying on her back and he was on top of her and they both were under the wrap but one could see that she doesn't have a top and then just intense moving of hips and panting. Still even if it barely shows anything it hurts. My friend started drink alcohol after that and started visiting bars a lot more often and he still doesn't stop even now after they broke up.

Think how Utsu couldn't do anything with Shou, not because of Yuki but because the image of Shou and her former guy was popping in his head. And that was only his imagination. Now imagine what would happen if he would see an actual tape. He would be limp for years in the same bed as Yuki because the image and memory would be popping into him and tormenting him.

It doesn't go as easy with human beings even if she did that from love in a loving relationship. Its not that easy.
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Old 2011-01-17, 11:13   Link #1942
Mughi
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
...Think how Utsu couldn't do anything with Shou, not because of Yuki but because the image of Shou and her former guy was popping in his head. And that was only his imagination. Now imagine what would happen if he would see an actual tape. He would be limp for years in the same bed as Yuki because the image and memory would be popping into him and tormenting him.
Yes, you are exactly correct in this statement, thus you have negated your argument that there is parity between the hickey on Shou's neck, and a still unrevealed and assumed tape of Yuki & Touru.

People may or may not jump to conclusions about what happened and how much when they see a hickey on a girl's neck. IF they happen to see that hickey on the girl's neck at all. When presented with recorded proof of Yuki doing the deed however, there is no refuting it. (Unless Touru was a Special Effects Director working for Lucasfilm at ILM )

All that we as the reader know thus far is that, Utsumi saw a hickey on Shou's neck. No proof that anyone else did, regardless of what kind of extrapolating prowess we as the audience possess. If Utsumi hadn't already fallen in love with Yuki and Shou missed her opportunity, Shou might have still had a chance with him, because memory of that hickey didn't seem to be bothering him when she was on top of him in the bath or her bed.

We also know that according to what we were shown in Yuki's memory (remember, WE saw that memory, NOT Utsumi. He's STILL in the dark about it, because she's recalled it to us, but told him nothing thus far) at least three boys have seen SOMETHING that was a betrayal of trust between Yuki and Touru. Something awful enough that she would leave school and her home in shame to go where she could restart her life without Touru. She will not speak of Touru, she will not look for him, she will not deal with that situation and becomes emotionally aggressive when faced with it and pressed. IN the story, Utsumi only knows something bad happened, but not what. Yuki is still a savior and somewhat angelic to Utsumi, even if she can be abrasive and confounding when pressed about her past, and vague about her feelings in the present.

66 will be out shortly. Answers may or may not come, but either way, equating what Shou went through publicly in school with what Yuki has is an apples vs. oranges comparison because not all of the cards have been played yet. Basing personal real life experiences on and creating conjecture from what we've actually seen so far is a pointless exercise.

It's ink and typography. Until we learn more from the Mangaka, pushing our own lives and frustrations upon the paper is useless if you're just going to vilify the characters. Better that you should take away those lessons you can from the story and work on your own self to become healthier and make better decisions in real life.
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Old 2011-01-17, 11:39   Link #1943
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The hickey was the turning point. How can you say it was not important or wanst bothering him when it obviously did as in if not for this back then when Shou was on him he might have kissed her or even more if not the image of hickey and his imagination playing. So it was very important as it still hurt him a whole great deal. Puzzles me how can you say it wasn't because it was the moment that changed everything back then.

As for hickey-tape argument - again I am saying that both are rumors (dont think the tape was too widely spread or known or else Eri and others would have known it) so it was mostly a rumor the target of which is her having sex, just like the hickey rumor would be - here is no difference if the evidence is not seen by many and thus it becomes just a rumor about girl having sex in both case. Just that the outcome is different - in Shou's case her feelings a trampled over and it is a s clear as it can be, in Yuki's case it is just her own opinion never making it clear with the guy (Utsu would be on the similar level as treatment if not for his friends and Risa slaps).

If the tape got so widely spread then its weird how no one else knows about it (Eri or her cousin). And if it went on the Internet then it is gone for good - you can go to whatever town you want and whatever country it will still find you (unless you are moving to complete province). Doesn't seem like its the case so not net, nor widely spread for others to pick it up. So mostly likely after a the few guys saw it it got destroyed (maybe by Touro himself) and it all became just a rumor that someone else saw the tape just like rumor like someone else saw the hickey. And you will never convince me that you can go around in school, particularly Japanese one with love bites, without getting rumors about it (she doesn't try to hide so really see no chance in hell it would not be picked up by some group of girls who like to gossip that every school has and will have).

Ink is making this world go round. How many people were killed because of ink, and how many will be because of it? Its a nature of human of getting agitated of various things even if it caused by just an ink.
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Old 2011-01-17, 11:44   Link #1944
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Gah, mountain of text. When I have time I'll read. I SHALL RETURNO! TERMINATAH! (Seto no Hanayome ref. fyi )
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Old 2011-01-17, 12:01   Link #1945
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
The hickey was the turning point. How can you say it was not important or wanst bothering him when it obviously did as in if not for this back then when Shou was on him he might have kissed her or even more if not the image of hickey and his imagination playing. So it was very important as it still hurt him a whole great deal. Puzzles me how can you say it wasn't because it was the moment that changed everything back then.

As for hickey-tape argument - again I am saying that both are rumors (dont think the tape was too widely spread or known or else Eri and others would have known it) so it was mostly a rumor the target of which is her having sex, just like the hickey rumor would be - here is no difference if the evidence is not seen by many and thus it becomes just a rumor about girl having sex in both case. Just that the outcome is different - in Shou's case her feelings a trampled over and it is a s clear as it can be, in Yuki's case it is just her own opinion never making it clear with the guy (Utsu would be on the similar level as treatment if not for his friends and Risa slaps).

If the tape got so widely spread then its weird how no one else knows about it (Eri or her cousin). And if it went on the Internet then it is gone for good - you can go to whatever town you want and whatever country it will still find you (unless you are moving to complete province). Doesn't seem like its the case so not net, nor widely spread for others to pick it up. So mostly likely after a the few guys saw it it got destroyed (maybe by Touro himself) and it all became just a rumor that someone else saw the tape just like rumor like someone else saw the hickey. And you will never convince me that you can go around in school, particularly Japanese one with love bites, without getting rumors about it (she doesn't try to hide so really see no chance in hell it would not be picked up by some group of girls who like to gossip that every school has and will have).

Ink is making this world go round. How many people were killed because of ink, and how many will be because of it? Its a nature of human of getting agitated of various things even if it caused by just an ink.
OMG, OK, I give up with you on this situation. You're so completely planted in your own fantasy world of assuming that whatever you dream up is fact and that things we have no proof of are to be taken as given. You just want to be "right". End of line.
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Old 2011-01-17, 12:12   Link #1946
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OMG, OK, I give up with you on this situation. You're so completely planted in your own fantasy world of assuming that whatever you dream up is fact and that things we have no proof of are to be taken as given. You just want to be "right". End of line.
Bro. You shouldn't give up. We'll get to him someday...before the heat death of the universe. After ALL, DEBATES (This is so not "Flame Wars" before the edit) ARE NOT about who is right, BUT WHO IS LEFT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! We'll have to figure out his moon logic argument first though.

Since when a rumour, with no solid evidence and barely anyone knows about and which was never actually spread, do more REAL damage than a rumour that is blown right out in the open with concrete "evidence", causing a young girl to leave all her old friends and family behind, and even a "friendly aquaintance" to know the contours of the scandal?

Sadly, since....now..I guess. The fact is, Dark's dreamed-up Shou Hickey SCANDAL NEVER EXISTED. The only other person that knows Shou MIGHT be seeing Kento outside Yuki-Utsumi gang was the pervy tennis member. His reaction is "oh yeah, Shou has this cool boyfriend that was our sempai". Apparently NOONE ELSE ON PANEL, including Mai...who is her BEST FRIEND, knows about her hickey. Regardless of whatever knowledge of "Japanese High School Rumor Mill" Dark might profess to have, not every rumour in the classroom gets airtime. In a sense, it is like how mass media operates. With rumors of extremely popular/smart students and rumors of the "class freaks" garnering the most attention, because those are the most interesting. Shou is (thus far) shown to be pretty UNREMARKABLE in her class (which is also part of the reason for her lack of confidence). All things considered. I doubt Dark's dreamed-up rumor ever existed, never shown or mentione in the story and this..."wild idea" probably is NOT intended by the author.

The tape need not be widely circulated to do its damage WITHIN Yuki's social circles. Moreover, not everyone goes on to the internet to look for porn of their own cousins/classmates/friends. Unless Dark do it all the time, but Imma not gonna judge. IN ANY CASE, there is no real indicator of how widespread it is in-story, so the debate about how widespread it is is a waste of time and not even on topic. The basic fact is that the tape exists, someone else other than Touru and Yuki watched it, the damage is already done to Yuki's psyche and everyone in the old school at least have SOME idea what happened.

Finally, the hickey was not the turning point. It was just another incident that REOPENED his wounds. The fact that he DIDN'T get the girl, and that now the girl is "someone else's" (as shown by the hickey), is what was rubbing him. Especially since he was so damn close to succeeding.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2011-01-17 at 12:41.
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Old 2011-01-17, 12:15   Link #1947
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OMG, OK, I give up with you on this situation. You're so completely planted in your own fantasy world of assuming that whatever you dream up is fact and that things we have no proof of are to be taken as given. You just want to be "right". End of line.
This is why I rarely if ever bother to get into any sort of debate with him.


All I have to say is that if Utsumi isn't an idiot, all he should do is hold Yuki and hug her, and accept her for who she is at this vunerable moment. People have pasts.
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Old 2011-01-17, 13:15   Link #1948
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Bro. You shouldn't give up. We'll get to him someday...before the heat death of the universe. After ALL, DEBATES (This is so not "Flame Wars" before the edit) ARE NOT about who is right, BUT WHO IS LEFT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! We'll have to figure out his moon logic argument first though.

Since when a rumour, with no solid evidence and barely anyone knows about and which was never actually spread, do more REAL damage than a rumour that is blown right out in the open with concrete "evidence", causing a young girl to leave all her old friends and family behind, and even a "friendly aquaintance" to know the contours of the scandal?

Sadly, since....now..I guess. The fact is, Dark's dreamed-up Shou Hickey SCANDAL NEVER EXISTED. The only other person that knows Shou MIGHT be seeing Kento outside Yuki-Utsumi gang was the pervy tennis member. His reaction is "oh yeah, Shou has this cool boyfriend that was our sempai". Apparently NOONE ELSE ON PANEL, including Mai...who is her BEST FRIEND, knows about her hickey. Regardless of whatever knowledge of "Japanese High School Rumor Mill" Dark might profess to have, not every rumour in the classroom gets airtime. In a sense, it is like how mass media operates. With rumors of extremely popular/smart students and rumors of the "class freaks" garnering the most attention, because those are the most interesting. Shou is (thus far) shown to be pretty UNREMARKABLE in her class (which is also part of the reason for her lack of confidence). All things considered. I doubt Dark's dreamed-up rumor ever existed, never shown or mentione in the story and this..."wild idea" probably is NOT intended by the author.

The tape need not be widely circulated to do its damage WITHIN Yuki's social circles. Moreover, not everyone goes on to the internet to look for porn of their own cousins/classmates/friends. Unless Dark do it all the time, but Imma not gonna judge. IN ANY CASE, there is no real indicator of how widespread it is in-story, so the debate about how widespread it is is a waste of time and not even on topic. The basic fact is that the tape exists, someone else other than Touru and Yuki watched it, the damage is already done to Yuki's psyche and everyone in the old school at least have SOME idea what happened.

Finally, the hickey was not the turning point. It was just another incident that REOPENED his wounds. The fact that he DIDN'T get the girl, and that now the girl is "someone else's" (as shown by the hickey), is what was rubbing him. Especially since he was so damn close to succeeding.
Wow its so hard to believe how much i disagree with you. pretty much one everything, but to the point of Shou being unpopular girl. I kind of imagined she was a popular girl while doing the sports and the rest of it, if she indeed is unpopular girl then it changes everything - such loners who are not objects of jealousy (loosers, unpopular ones) are never looked like over through the mycroscope. I got the impression that she was rather popular though, but if you are saying that she wasn't (and I haven't reread the GE for while) then it may be true and she indeed can slip out not being noticed since then no-one notices her and would barely notice if she would be dead or something - thats the destiny of not popular ones.

On the other hand how you interpretated hickey situation puzzles me - you view it as a symbol of her being taken before him, I view it as a symbol of her being taken as such (suince it happens before his eyes it is very vivid).

Thats why I think if he were to see that video of tape he could not move into to Yuki for a great while and wouldnt be able to do anything as he would be as limp as noodle as images of her having sex would be popping in his head just like it was in Shou situation. Believe it or not its a really big turn off factor see a tape of the girl you like banging another guy. Can be pretty scarring.

And not being informed on porn and not finding it? What age you are living in?

Internet is for porn. Specially when we are talking about teenager boys.

Every second - 28,258 internet users are viewing pornography. Every second - 372 internet users are typing adult search terms into search engines. How the fuck can you hide from that? Even if it is considered a limited town audience that really interested.

My home town is a rather small town in lithuania (lithuania itself is a small country of three million people), in school we had one accident where one of the guys grabbed another guy by his hair and rubbed his face against one girls crotch. Someone taped it and placed it on the site. A small site that one barely visits. It happened by the noon. By the evening the whole fucking town was buzzing about the incident and we even had minister coming to our school asking about the abuse between students. And that wasn't even a porn.

Quote:
All I have to say is that if Utsumi isn't an idiot, all he should do is hold Yuki and hug her, and accept her for who she is at this vunerable moment. People have pasts.
All I have to say is that if Utsumi isn't an idiot, all he should do is go for Eri. Or Risa. People have pasts. But having pasts is not excuse to treat others badly in the present.

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Old 2011-01-17, 13:53   Link #1949
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Bro. You shouldn't give up.... snip
THANK YOU for saying what I just couldn't bring myself to write... too tiring.

My only additional issue is that we HEARD there was a tape through the rumored spoilers, but we haven't YET gotten confirmation. It could have been a photo or something completely else. The ONLY concrete info we have is a blurry mental image background from Yuki's memories we were shown way back more than 50 eps ago. (That I reiterate, Utsumi HAS NOT seen.)

I REALLY appreciated your point that not EVERYONE is celebrity enough to elicit interest from a school population. Since Dark has been basing fantasies on real world occasions, here's one from my past: I knew a girl who had a child out of wedlock as a Jr. High Schooler. She was no one of importance in the school, just another student. She had her friends and I knew her through classes, but even as we all transitioned to High School, because she remained unimportant as a member of the class, she was able to bring her child to school events. Nobody ever asked who the father was, or what the circumstances were beyond her personal inner circle. We all felt badly for her, being saddled with the responsibility of having a child at such a young age, but beyond mild pity, there was no ill will, scandal or hate towards her. Boys didn't avoid her and girls didn't berate her. IN 4 1/2 years from birth to our graduation, I never heard one bad word said against her, and she was generally well adjusted enough to talk with everyone and come to events and hang out with guys as well as girls... Now had she been a member of Student Council, or the star of the Girls Baseball team, or a Cheerleader, you can BET the sparks would have flown. Position in the culture of a school make a great deal of difference in how you're perceived and how much scandal you can withstand.

As you stated, Shou may be the captain of the school's half-talented and bottom ranked Tennis team, but she's no big girl on campus. Even Risa seems more popular within HER grade level than Shou is. Same with Yuki. Yuki was looking for anonymity by moving to THIS school, where NO ONE would know her past... and no one does, nor do they care. She's just a cute, but kind of standoffish girl in class to the few who seem to take notice of her within her grade. Even to the guy she had one date with, she wasn't like the class princess whom he had to get up a month's worth of courage to ask out. People who are "just part of the class" and not the "It" people can have all kinds of micro-scandals happen to them without retribution by the class as a whole. no one cares about them particularly, so no one cares when something happens to them.

If we wanted to go off on a conjecture jag, we could easily imagine that in her OLD school & town, Yuki was a celebrity in her own right. She obviously comes from a family of some wealth and position as evidenced by her house, servants and the manner of her mother. In THAT school, having a scandal about you could be crippling for both the child and the family. We COULD base this assumption on the stated point that Yuki's father was so angered by her actions and the potential damage to their family reputation that Yuki was essentially exiled to avoid further loss of face. Now she's a nobody in another school... just another faceless student, and Touru is persona non grata, gone off to a prep school. (coincidentally in the same city as Yuki... fireworks to follow.)

If one were to make the leap of logic above, which is based on what we DO know, then Shou's accidental reveal of a hickey (and all that it MIGHT mean) to Utsumi, pales in comparison to the true scandal of a well known member of a school being caught in a sex encounter, such that it caused her exile by her family, and mental damage enough to cause her to withdraw and shift in character from a lovable life-filled genki girl to a brooding, sometimes cold, and often serious girl. THAT is an assumption I could get behiond, if only because that's where the clues in the story CAN lead us.

So much for too tiring to write...
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Old 2011-01-17, 15:03   Link #1950
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This is why I rarely if ever bother to get into any sort of debate with him.


All I have to say is that if Utsumi isn't an idiot, all he should do is hold Yuki and hug her, and accept her for who she is at this vunerable moment. People have pasts.
I'm staying on the sidelines on this one for sure .

I don't disagree with that position, but if they're trapped in their pasts so much that it affects their present self and likely future, you have to get them to talk about it.(not sure if you meant to just hug her and do nothing afterwards or not, just covering bases here)
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Old 2011-01-18, 14:26   Link #1951
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Raws out! Pretty much as predicted.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:13   Link #1952
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I need a translation badly.

Spoiler for 66:
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:35   Link #1953
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:53   Link #1954
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Spoiler:
Spoiler for yeah:
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:59   Link #1955
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Spoiler for 66:
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Old 2011-01-18, 16:16   Link #1956
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Spoiler for 66:
Spoiler for hmm:
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Old 2011-01-18, 16:19   Link #1957
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Does anyone see this manga even hitting 100 chapters?
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Old 2011-01-18, 16:26   Link #1958
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No, this will cause some rage from remaining otaku's and pick up some popularity due to controversy but the manga isnt really magazine's number one popularity hitter and after it calms down it will go down fast ( due to : a) more rats abandoning the ship and b) the main mystery solved makes it less interesting to read), so I dont think they will go for the 100. Soon Touru will appear.
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Old 2011-01-18, 18:28   Link #1959
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Does anyone see this manga even hitting 100 chapters?
The way they are going in circles around each other, I wouldn't be surprised even if it goes past 200. But it seems like we are finally nearing a resolution of the whole Tooru thing, and the final pairing is pretty much set in stone now (to my dismay, as I liked him better with his senpai). So there isn't all that much left to do I think, unless the author decides to throw us a curveball.
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Old 2011-01-18, 18:36   Link #1960
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so I dont think they will go for the 100. Soon Touru will appear.
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The way they are going in circles around each other, I wouldn't be surprised even if it goes past 200.
What would both of you say to, upon the introduction of Touru, that he turns out to be a long lost relative of Utsumi's? Probably overkill; I don't think it'd stand a good chance to prolong the manga. I can't think of any other devices that'd make things more interesting while reading past the resolution of the Touru situation, unless it takes a page out of the KNIM book and adds in meddling relatives.
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