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Old 2011-01-18, 05:56   Link #21541
hilly
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My interpretation and theory

Well,after seeing theories of many people,I created my own theory too!
Spoiler for The fantasy of umineko:
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Old 2011-01-18, 06:07   Link #21542
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not exactly, it was entirely Kinzo's choice to murder everyone in the military base, kidnap Beatrice, and steal the gold.
We don't know he did that at all. He calls his commander insane for thinking about that. I don't think we'll get an answer either.

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The man was forty years old at the time and an excellent marksman. There's no way he acted in the manner that he presented himself in the story.
In order: So are those "Elite Italian Soldiers", he has no combat experience, he's not supposed to be able to lie about his perspective under theatergoing authority, so he shouldn't be able to present himself falsely. Nobody else seems to be implied to.

And if he can lie under it what's the point of introducing it? That makes it pretty useless.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-18 at 06:20.
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Old 2011-01-18, 08:10   Link #21543
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I supposed theatergoing authority allowed the detective to force the character to tell the truth prescribed by the GM, so to that character, GM's truth is the truth, but not the real truth.

That's why when Bern cut open Claire Bernadus, the real truth flowed out.

Claire Bernadus had been covering the trurh by portraying Kinzo and other adults in the good light
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Old 2011-01-18, 08:35   Link #21544
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
is the ?????tea party shows what happened in rokkenjima?
About that we'll have to settle with a "that's not necessarily the truth", whatever that means...
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:16   Link #21545
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You know, I'm sure this had been brought up before, but I got to thinking lately, and the only conclusion I can really come to about Umineko, after everything's said and done is that the the true culprit of the Rokkenjima Incident is Kinzo.

After all, wasn't he the one that made all of this possible in the first place?
One may as well blame the United States for giving Kinzo the opportunity to buy the island. Then we have to blame Imperial Japan for attacking the United States. Then we have to blame British and Russian imperialism for driving Japan into aggressive imperialism to counteract western influences in Asia. And so on and so forth to the beginning of time.

The person "responsible" is the person that actually caused the deaths, however that happened to play out. Nobody else.

Imagine for a moment that the gold didn't exist, the bomb didn't exist, none of that stuff about Kinzo was true. But he does have a gun collection. Now imagine somebody gets one of his guns and kills everybody. Is it "Kinzo's fault" that the deaths occurred, because he owned the gun that was used to cause them? Certainly, but for the gun being there everybody wouldn't have been shot, but there's no telling what other weapon the killer might've used if he or she couldn't get a gun.

If Kinzo premeditated the inevitable circumstances that led to people killing, sure, we can point the finger at him. That's putting a lot of responsibility on a seemingly dead man, though.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:31   Link #21546
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Well if that story is true it would be very hard to argue that Kinzo really didn't have any responsibility for what happened.

At any rate what he did, if he did it, is absolutely criminal.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:41   Link #21547
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He probably is a criminal. That doesn't make him guilty of anything in 1986.
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Old 2011-01-18, 15:55   Link #21548
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Yeah, especially if he was already dead.

But suppose that the whole bomb and the fancy clock switch are true. And suppose that the switch was turned on by mistake.

Who would you blame?
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Old 2011-01-18, 16:11   Link #21549
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Ever hear the saying "Possession is 9/10ths of the law?"

The person who would receive blame for this situation in the public is the person who currently owns the property. And no matter how you look at it by purposes of ownership that isn't Kinzo. Dead or not because of the epitaph being solved it's more likely Yasu or Krauss, and only because Yasu hands it over to him without him knowing. This is also why people in 1998 are blaming Eva isn't it? "She inherited everything. She took all the property and made loads of money. Therefore she must be the suspicious person responsible for those grizzly murders they talk about in magazines and talk shows, and the accident." Is how it goes?

See how this logic works? Blaming Kinzo for this works the same way as what people are blaming Eva for in 1998.
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Old 2011-01-18, 17:05   Link #21550
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I really don't see it that way, I don't think we agree on the seriousness of owning an undeclared amount of explosive and on setting it up in a way that any idiot could blow it creating the largest man-made crater in the world.


There's been a man in my country that was responsible for leaving several bombs around in public places. Note that they didn't have any timer, so someone actually needed to trigger them to make them explode. In no case this man was the one that actually made the bombs explode. The bombs were hidden in mundane objects and left in public places so you could say that he "dropped them" and therefore wasn't the owner anymore.

A grandfather clock seems mundane enough to me. I guess it could be different if it was some huge device with several switches to be pressed and a huge warning saying "danger! self-destruct system".

No matter how you look at it, the creation of that device alone deserves a lifetime imprisonment.
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Old 2011-01-18, 17:19   Link #21551
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We don't know he did that at all. He calls his commander insane for thinking about that. I don't think we'll get an answer either.
Read the 'tearing out the guts' scene again. Stealing the gold was Kinzo's idea.

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And if he can lie under it what's the point of introducing it? That makes it pretty useless.
Spectator's Authority seems to force the subject to reveal what it THINKS is true. Kinzo is eighty years old and has deluded himself into thinking he's better than he is.

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Is it "Kinzo's fault" that the deaths occurred, because he owned the gun that was used to cause them?
No, but it IS Kinzo's fault that the island exploded, and it IS Kinzo's fault that there was a reason to shoot anyone in the first place.

Hell, it's Kinzo's fault that his children are the kind of people who would shoot another person anyway.

See what I mean?
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Old 2011-01-18, 17:36   Link #21552
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Read the 'tearing out the guts' scene again. Stealing the gold was Kinzo's idea.
And I deny that particular screenshot based on the spectator's authority. Which is why I said I don't beleive we will get a real answer. Besides I kind of prefer Episode 8's Kinzo.

Quote:
Spectator's Authority seems to force the subject to reveal what it THINKS is true. Kinzo is eighty years old and has deluded himself into thinking he's better than he is.
The way his commander is portrayed as being appalled in that scene vs what he says about him makes the story into a complete falshood not just a justification. Not to mention Kinzo is a grunt as well why should they listen to him?

I dunno. I actually prefer ijriims idea for this part.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I really don't see it that way, I don't think we agree on the seriousness of owning an undeclared amount of explosive and on setting it up in a way that any idiot could blow it creating the largest man-made crater in the world.
I don't think we disagree on that. I think I was just rambling about something that popped in my head.

But you know we're basically told the Japanese military left those there aren't we? The blame can be spread around.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-18 at 18:01.
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Old 2011-01-18, 19:33   Link #21553
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah, especially if he was already dead.

But suppose that the whole bomb and the fancy clock switch are true. And suppose that the switch was turned on by mistake.

Who would you blame?
No one; it's an accident. You said so yourself, it was a mistake.

Now the owner of the property is liable under civil law for the deaths, though it does somewhat depend on who we're counting as owner (Kinzo's estate? Krauss? Yasu?) and how much they knew about it.

But criminally? There is no fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, but it IS Kinzo's fault that the island exploded, and it IS Kinzo's fault that there was a reason to shoot anyone in the first place.

Hell, it's Kinzo's fault that his children are the kind of people who would shoot another person anyway.

See what I mean?
Not really. People are responsible for their own actions. I think it's fairly clear that people can rise above terrible circumstances; Maria, for all her turn toward darkness later in her life, never hurt anyone and was still able to trust people, and she had it bad. Ange is an obvious other example; although she can go bad, the "proper" ending shows she's not willing to pursue her paranoia and grief to self-destructive ends.

We don't know a lot of unbiased information about Kinzo's child-rearing or about the contribution his wife made to their upbringing. We also don't know that Eva, Krauss, or Rosa would go on a killing spree at all (Rudolf has more direct evidence of willingness to go along with it). It's too simple to point the finger at their father.

Finally, can you demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that the mechanism which led to the disaster was Kinzo's agency and responsibility alone? He might be grossly irresponsible in not disarming whatever was there to disarm (if anything, and if he knew how and was able), but he might not be ultimately culpable for the outcome.
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Old 2011-01-18, 19:48   Link #21554
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No one; it's an accident. You said so yourself, it was a mistake.

Now the owner of the property is liable under civil law for the deaths, though it does somewhat depend on who we're counting as owner (Kinzo's estate? Krauss? Yasu?) and how much they knew about it.

But criminally? There is no fault.

Look I can't really accept as an accident an explosion of that kind nor I can accept that there is no fault. There is something that is called "responsibility" to consider here. Even if Kinzo didn't want to use that bomb (which it isn't entirely true according to EP7) he's still responsible for creating that danger.

To make an example.
Let's say your neighbor packs several explosives in his house and makes it so that if someone tries to break inside they all go off. Now suppose that a burglar tries to go inside. He's not aware of the explosives so although he's clearly at wrong here, do you really think that he should be the one to be considered responsible for killing you? He might be a burglar but he's not a murderer. The real responsible is the complete idiot that set up those explosives near your house, don't you think?
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Old 2011-01-18, 20:42   Link #21555
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In that case yes, but the circumstances are different; as you state in your example, the bombs are deliberately rigged to prevent a break-in. This sort of thing has a lot of precedent in US law (the famous case is of a guy who rigged up a gun to shoot anyone who tried to enter his trailer) and it is illegal, but that's different here.

If, in your example, someone accidentally armed the explosive, then no one is criminally responsible for the deaths caused unless they knew, should have known, or intentionally set the device. If it was a "mistake," then they probably didn't. Now if someone deliberately rigs it to blow, they're the ones criminally responsible for the resulting deaths.

Suppose, though, that Kinzo is alive and in a hospital on the mainland the day of the blast. When questioned, he admits he knew about the explosives and that they could blow up the mansion area but didn't do anything about it. Is Kinzo legally liable? You bet your ass.

EDIT: He might or might not also face criminal charges, but they wouldn't be murder.
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Old 2011-01-18, 21:19   Link #21556
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You are undersizing Kinzo's responsibility here.

He isn't just responsible for owning the explosives, he is responsible for setting up a complex system to make them all blow up with the clear purpose of destroying the mansion an killing off anyone who lives inside.

Even though he never actually did it, he still created the system that could allow him to do it at any given moment just by pressing a switch.


Since the previous example wasn't enough then let me change it to fit with the scenario even more.

Someone places a high amount explosive right under your house. and then connects it to a remote device. He could push the button at any given time. However in the end he doesn't do that. And yet, someone later, by accident, pushes the button and your house is gone.

There is no doubt that the one that pushes the button is by no mean accountable for what he did. But can you say that the whole thing was an accident or that no one is at fault here?

I'd say that the fact a huge amount of explosive was set to blow up your house is nowhere close to have happened by accident.
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Old 2011-01-18, 21:21   Link #21557
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I'm just here because someone brought up the red guts scene:

I totally call bullshit on it's validity. Note that it's being cut out of Clair's guts, and she passed on without regrets after Will understood the truth, but he never questioned the validity of Kinzo's story.

Now, excluding the Army Gold scene for a second, what do the rest of the scenes have in common?

They are memories of "Beatrice." BAD ones. If we're going to say that Kinzo's story is deluding himself into a good light despite Spectating Authority, then I propose that Clair, WHO HAS CONSISTENTLY PORTRAYED KINZO NEGATIVELY SINCE THE FIRST EPISODE, is projecting her own emotional judgements and perspective onto her memories.

The emo git is playing up the melodrama. She's not lying though; she honestly believes it.
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Old 2011-01-19, 04:12   Link #21558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are undersizing Kinzo's responsibility here.
I think Renall's just talking about things from a legal stand point. Specifically criminal culpability or civil liability.

You're talking about whether he's morally or ethically responsible, right? I don't think anyone would disagree that he was those two and is technically to share some of the blame. And also, possibly negligent and/or naive...

... wouldn't put it past Kinzo. *cough*


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm just here because someone brought up the red guts scene:

I totally call bullshit on it's validity. Note that it's being cut out of Clair's guts, and she passed on without regrets after Will understood the truth, but he never questioned the validity of Kinzo's story.
That's an interesting take on Claire/Yasu's feelings. In other words, she probably has her own biased take on the events too.

As an aside to Judoh's question, about what use the Spectator's Authority was if it could be subverted by bias so easily... I thought that this was the final point of EP7. Basically, you were trolled into think that Spectator's Authority was... um... 'authoritative.' But the red guts scene ended up showing you that, (if we take what Aura said about Clair/Yasu's take on it all), hey, here's an alternate view to just mess you up! Nelson: "Haha." Basically, Spectator's Authority is the highest authority and it too is subverted in the end... so... how can anyone reach the truth?

Maybe because I ended up reading the Tea Party so close to starting EP8 but it ended up weighing very heavily while I read through the last episode.
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Old 2011-01-19, 06:17   Link #21559
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But here's the thing.

We were never told at any point that the Spectator's Authority by any means was honest, immune to lies/bias what have you, or whatever. Infact, the only use it has seems to be delivering information otherwise impossible to report, like recalling memories from alternate worlds.

It's basically a device to break the fourth wall and do some Greek Chorus meta-meta shit. It's a literal break in the story so Will can pull them aside and squeeze info out of them he literally has no business knowing and they have no business telling. That's probably why it's so highly regulated and forbidden and shit. If it was just "Interviewing bitches with special visual aids"...well...what's so goddamn special about it?
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Old 2011-01-19, 08:59   Link #21560
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I think Renall's just talking about things from a legal stand point. Specifically criminal culpability or civil liability.

You're talking about whether he's morally or ethically responsible, right? I don't think anyone would disagree that he was those two and is technically to share some of the blame. And also, possibly negligent and/or naive...

... wouldn't put it past Kinzo. *cough*
Then let's talk from a legal standpoint.

Suppose this case: there was a terrorist attack, a bomb exploded in a public area killing several people in the process. Two men are found being involved with this case. One man is responsible for acquiring the explosive, creating the bomb and the remote control, and placing the device on the site. The other man is responsible for pressing the trigger.

From a perfectly legal standpoint, do you think that only the man that actually pulled the trigger will be considered accountable for that massacre?
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