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Old 2011-01-19, 16:06   Link #21
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
While I agree with you quite a lot, I have to point out that this was mistranslation, later corrected by the same fansub in a v2.

""You don't seem to understand, huh? What I mean is that I'll overlook what you did this time". Or something like that... it still implies that Mami would have attacked Homura had the latter tried to kill Kyuubey again though.
I've rechecked the scene with my feeble JP knowledge and concur that the "kill" part was an editorial liberty by gg. Still, it's a clear threat towards Homura. She'd kick her butt next time. And what do you believe what the outcome of such a battle be? I don't think it's gonna be demerit points.

This isn't funny stuff, but damn serious. We know that MGs are putting their _lives_ on the line. And this scene proves that she wouldn't have qualms attacking another MG. While it wasn't being said expressis verbis, this was the meaning of Mami's line. And this is a world Madoka absolute doesn't belong in.
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Old 2011-01-19, 16:17   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I've rechecked the scene with my feeble JP knowledge and concur that the "kill" part was an editorial liberty by gg. Still, it's a clear threat towards Homura. She'd kick her butt next time. And what do you believe what the outcome of such a battle be? I don't think it's gonna be demerit points.
Yes, I agree with that. Besides, Mami is already suspicious because she says there's a very heavy competition between MGs, yet, she's really eager to have these two join as MG. Can't she be that altruistic? Seems unlikely....

And Kyuubey is worst... he says: "I can grant any single wish of yours. I'll make any miracle come true! BUT the price is the Soul Gem. If you have one, you HAVE to fight against witches."

The new info in the official website confirm this: if you are an MG, you have not choice, you have to fight witches.

If you have to, it means that something it's going to happen to you if you don't do it. Yet, Kyuubey never said what is it. He's withholding information about this contract of his... very suspicious!!
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:39   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I never said that anywhere, did I? I'm referring to how sweet/loving/caring/cute everything is pictured. It's the "how", the undertones. I may be wrong, but I find this family suspect.

Add to it those small pieces which make you go "hmm". Like her mom repeating Kyubey's line of "It's all over when you give up". Like the shot of Kyubey watching when her mom explained her vocational schemes.

Call it a hunch, and let's wait and see, okay?
You know, people are making a big deal out of things that are commonplace in magical girl animes.

It's certainly possible, and even likely, that this anime won't play things exactly like other magical girl shows, but still...


A magical girl having a good, nice family is no big deal. In fact, it's typical. If you think Madoka's family is nice, you should see Nanoha's.

And a magical girl contractor/"mascot" typically follows the magical girl around everywhere. So Kyubey watching Madoka's mom isn't exactly that big of a deal either.

With this in mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I've rechecked the scene with my feeble JP knowledge and concur that the "kill" part was an editorial liberty by gg. Still, it's a clear threat towards Homura. She'd kick her butt next time. And what do you believe what the outcome of such a battle be?
Nanoha's made "clear threats" like this before, and thoroughly kicked Fate's butt once. It was every bit as serious as what we've seen in this anime so far.

It doesn't mean that Nanoha is evil.


Quote:

This isn't funny stuff, but damn serious. We know that MGs are putting their _lives_ on the line. And this scene proves that she wouldn't have qualms attacking another MG. While it wasn't being said expressis verbis, this was the meaning of Mami's line. And this is a world Madoka absolute doesn't belong in.
Why? What makes Madoka any less capable than Nanoha, or Sakura?

Some people must think that magical girls are all roses and butterflies, and a bunch of pacifists.

I'd strongly suggest that such people check out Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

Most of the "hints" people are picking up on here is standard fare for magical girl shows.

I won't deny that Kyubey and Mami are a bit suspicious, but it is being blown out of proportion a bit.

Magical girls fighting magical girls is nothing new. It's quite commonplace in magical girl anime.
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Old 2011-01-19, 17:57   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why? He fulfilled Homura's wish - she's no MG anymore. Noone said that she couldn't want to become a MG again - he's not forcing her, merely tempting her. In the Faust analogy, Kyubey is the devil, you know...

And besides, I'm betting dollars to donuts that becoming a MG screws all of them over in a much bigger way already than THAT.
So it's what I said, he totally screwed her over in your speculation. Homura got absolutely nothing out of the deal (at least, nothing permanent) and in fact lost her own life/freedom, whereas Kyuubey only lost Madoka temporarily, and gained a new magical girl (Homura) for free.
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Old 2011-01-19, 18:00   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Magical girls fighting magical girls is nothing new. It's quite commonplace in magical girl anime.
Well, IMO, I wouldn't be so sure about an MG showdown like in MGLN, at least not with the same "befriending" themes. That would make this Nanoha 2.

The references to Faust can't be overlooked. Even if Kyuubey isn't evil, there's gonna be a twist that will reveal that someone is deceiving someone.

More than fighting to help friends and whatnot, I think this series is about trust and deceit. That's what I feel. It goes along with what the writer said about MG no being necessarily heroes. On the other hand, witches may no be necessarily evil.
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Old 2011-01-19, 18:15   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You know, people are making a big deal out of things that are commonplace in magical girl animes.
Look. This is the spoilers&speculation thread. If you try to forcefully sew your eyes shut to those things that are explicitly NOT commonplace in magical girl animes and take the "all this is perfectly normal in mahou shoujo land", more power to you. Just please don't come back complaining afterwards that all of a sudden the show took a turn to the much darker without proper explanation/motivation. Because the hints are plentiful and in open unobstructed sight.

Examples:

Quote:
And a magical girl contractor/"mascot" typically follows the magical girl around everywhere.
Is having a non-antagonist lead character fighting the mascot bloody with the explicitly stated intent to KILL him commonplace in your mahou shoujo worlds?

Quote:
So Kyubey watching Madoka's mom isn't exactly that big of a deal either.
I think you missed the point. Kyubey is obviously the facilitator of the miracles. And when both "mom" and him use the same slightly unusual proverb, it's making me pause. And I mentioned that Kyubey was around when mom outlined her ambitions because I expect her to suddenly SUCCEED with what she planned. I suspect that Kyubey will make her.

Quote:
Nanoha's made "clear threats" like this before, and thoroughly kicked Fate's butt once. It was every bit as serious as what we've seen in this anime so far.
Not in Nanoha S1 (haven't seen any more than that), no. I don't recall them fighting to the death or threatening it, it was about collecting jewels and befriending people if my memory doesn't fail me. Donning "Raging Heart" was not explicitly introduced as a job that required her to accept the risk of _dying_, it was merely about "courage".

Quote:
Why? What makes Madoka any less capable than Nanoha, or Sakura?
When will you realize that this show is not Nanoha, I wonder? Maybe when the first character bites the dust.

It's not a matter of being "capable". This show - unless I'm totally mistaken - isn't about "fighting" against each other with magical spells and furry mascots, and eventually befriending/purifying them. This show will force the girls into a meat grinder. It's much closer To Mai HiME than Nanoha, wanna bet?

Sorry man - I can't disprove you yet, but I think you're watching this with completely wrong expectations. This is Urobuchi Gen, for crying out loud.

Let's wait and see.
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Old 2011-01-19, 18:23   Link #27
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So it's what I said, he totally screwed her over in your speculation. Homura got absolutely nothing out of the deal (at least, nothing permanent) and in fact lost her own life/freedom, whereas Kyuubey only lost Madoka temporarily, and gained a new magical girl (Homura) for free.
If my suspicion is correct, then yes. It would be fittingly devilish

It seems that the next chapter will deal with Homura. If my fantasy about her is right, this will be the rough outline:

1) She's been raised _without real parents_. Maybe in an orphanage or something equivalent.
2) Her past would have allowed her to become close friends to Madoka. Exposure to isolated girls.
3) She'll be a loner type who endures. Very few friends (quite possibly, without Madoka, none)
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Old 2011-01-19, 20:25   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Look. This is the spoilers&speculation thread.
Right. That means that people can legitimately debate for or against particular speculations.

I sincerely think that you're making too big a deal out of some things.

And I never said that this anime wouldn't get darker.

But I don't see the big deal in a lot of the elements that people are focusing on, such as what Madoka's family is like, or magical girls fighting magical girls.

A protagonist magical girl fighting a "dark magical girl" is an established trope of the magical girl genre, for crying out loud. Mami hasn't done anything yet that's significantly worse than what most magical girls do.

Edit: I think it's really early to be treating her and/or Kyuube as sure-fire villains based solely on what we've heard and seen so far. I just think that people should give these characters a chance, and not necessarily assume the absolute worst about everything they do or say.


Quote:
Just please don't come back complaining afterwards that all of a sudden the show took a turn to the much darker without proper explanation/motivation. Because the hints are plentiful and in open unobstructed sight.
I'm prepared for this anime to get darker. That's not exactly unheard of in the magical girl genre. Nanoha A's, and the final season of Sailor Moon, had very dark elements as well.

As a fan of this genre, I'm tired of people acting like Madoka Magica is going somewhere that magical girl animes have never gone before, when this is simply not the case. At least so far.


Quote:
Is having a non-antagonist lead character fighting the mascot bloody with the explicitly stated intent to KILL him commonplace in your mahou shoujo worlds?
How do we know that she's a non-antagonist? She might be a non-antagonist, or she might be an antagonist. This anime could go either way.

Anyway, in the first season of Nanoha, one of Arf's attacks against Yuuno looked potentially lethal to me. Arf wasn't exactly an antagonist either.


Quote:
I think you missed the point. Kyubey is obviously the facilitator of the miracles. And when both "mom" and him use the same slightly unusual proverb, it's making me pause. And I mentioned that Kyubey was around when mom outlined her ambitions because I expect her to suddenly SUCCEED with what she planned. I suspect that Kyubey will make her.
The fact that Kyubey and Madoka's mom said the same thing is intriguing, yes. I'm not disputing that.


Quote:
In I don't recall them fighting to the death or threatening it,
There's been no fighting to the death, or threatening it here, either, yet. Other posters already explained the translation error, Mentar. So shouldn't people start moving off of a point tied to a clearly erroneous translation?


Quote:
it was about collecting jewels and befriending people if my memory doesn't fail me.
Come on, dude. "Befriending" was going on, but it was through some awfully harsh means.


Quote:
Donning "Raging Heart" was not explicitly introduced as a job that required her to accept the risk of _dying_, it was merely about "courage".
Whenever you fight powerful monsters, or witches, or whatever, there's a chance of dying. That's implicit.

Mami and Kyuube, so far, have not expected anything worse of Madoka and Sayaka than what is typically expected of magical girls.

That may change, of course, but again, I'd like to give these characters the benefit of the doubt for now.


Quote:
When will you realize that this show is not Nanoha, I wonder?
I never said that it is.

I'm just saying that it's not a big deal for magical girls to be fighting magical girls.

Nor is it a big deal for magical girls to throw themselves into dangerous situations.


Quote:
Maybe when the first character bites the dust.
That wouldn't be unheard of in magical girl anime either.


Quote:

It's not a matter of being "capable". This show - unless I'm totally mistaken - isn't about "fighting" against each other with magical spells and furry mascots, and eventually befriending/purifying them. This show will force the girls into a meat grinder.
These aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 2011-01-20, 01:51   Link #29
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Well, this seems pretty hot right now (the topic I mean) so...let me present my Theory!

1. Episode 1 signified the start of the time loop.
My theory is that there's a time loop starting from when Madoka starts school. This would explain the dreams for Episode 1 and 2. There's a possibility that the first event was what almost exactly that happened, and Madoka wished for time to repeat itself, but Kyubey says that what she saw was inevitable.

2. Kyubey is neither good nor evil.
Unless there's real proof, I won't consider Kyubey evil or good. I think that Kyubey's like a spectator (thus explains her msg to Madoka in her dream), and witches and maho shoujos are like balancing forces in the world (reminds me of Shakugan no Shana XD). She cannot do anything that will upset this balance.

3. Homura is avoiding something Madoka did in the past experience.
In the anime were seeing right now, it seems unlikely, but I think Homura's trying to avoid something happening. I have the a hunch that the OP itself has connections. (In the OP there's Madoka being worrying and Kyubey walking away) Homura trying to kill Kyubey, and Homura trying to intimidate Madoka may just be a farce. I think that Homura somehow experienced this Madoka's wishing to repeat time by doing things to make Madoka sure to be a Mahou Shoujo.
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Old 2011-01-20, 12:18   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A protagonist magical girl fighting a "dark magical girl" is an established trope of the magical girl genre, for crying out loud. Mami hasn't done anything yet that's significantly worse than what most magical girls do.
Hm? I don't necessarily consider Mami "evil" or anything. She's a MG and just saved someone's life. I do suspect though that she's not telling the girls the whole truth - and that she has something to gain by encouraging them to become MGs. Contrary to Homura, whose concern for Madoka I consider fully genuine, I consider her as opaque - and expect her to be fundamentally selfish. That's not the same as evil. Alternatively, she might die relatively soonish. We'll see.

Quote:
Edit: I think it's really early to be treating her and/or Kyuube as sure-fire villains based solely on what we've heard and seen so far. I just think that people should give these characters a chance, and not necessarily assume the absolute worst about everything they do or say.
Kyubey has a 90% chance to turn out evil in my book. The similarities to Faust-Mephisto are too evident.

Quote:
How do we know that she's a non-antagonist? She might be a non-antagonist, or she might be an antagonist. This anime could go either way.
If you were around, I'd bet you my 100 Euro against your 10 that Homura is not going to be an antagonist. She has "best friend to Madoka" plastered all over her.

Quote:
There's been no fighting to the death, or threatening it here, either, yet.
Seems you forgot that Mami just killed a witch. Or what do you think does it mean when Kyubey and Mami point out that the MGs put their lives on the line?

Quote:
Other posters already explained the translation error, Mentar. So shouldn't people start moving off of a point tied to a clearly erroneous translation?
Nonsense. It was a mis-edit, not a mistranslation, see above. It was a grave serious threat to Homura. What do you think would happen in a fight between them? Hm?

Quote:
Whenever you fight powerful monsters, or witches, or whatever, there's a chance of dying. That's implicit.
When exactly did a main character die in Nanoha or CCS? Please give examples.

Well, if my gut feeling is right, it won't take too long before we have the first real victims. I guess we'll be able to put this kind of "it's not really different to standard MG animes" talk behind us.
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Old 2011-01-20, 12:35   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Well, if my gut feeling is right, it won't take too long before we have the first real victims. I guess we'll be able to put this kind of "it's not really different to standard MG animes" talk behind us.
Let me just say that I watched the ep3 live stream with 4chan...
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Old 2011-01-20, 14:35   Link #32
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EDIT 1:

I would like to list out a few observations from episode 3. The first being facts, the second being personal observations and the last being what I extrapolated.


1: Familiar of witches can develop and when matured, will be just as what they're spawned of.
2: A contract can have a 3rd party beneficiary to whom the contracting parties have agreed to.
3: Kyubey cannot arbitrarily impose any terms before contract is finalized.

4: Kyubey sees an enormous potential within Madoka.
5: Grief seed, when embedded in a locale within real space, will serves as an anchor to an enclosed labyrinth... the domain in which a which resides.


1: Mami didn't have much time to think about her wish, and she made this wish in a life-or-death situation.
2: Madoka has a lack of self esteem, and she finds her lack of 'usefulness' to be a source of frustration.
3: Sayaka is willing to contract with Kyubey, when terms are sufficiently fleshed out.
4: Madoka seeks an avenue for her to be of help to others.
5: Mami has put forth a brave front, only to admit to her own contradiction in front of an admiring Madoka.
6: Mami has paid a heavy personal toll in making her wish. She has no way to seek help for her predicament, and no one to talk to.
7: Madoka is the least mature individual presented so far.


1. Mami has her motives in supporting Kyubey as to elicit Madoka and Sayaka to become magical girls. Not being alone in her plight is one of them.
2. Mami and Homura both recognize the potentials in Madoka, although it is clear that Homura does not wish for it to be tapped at all while Mami on the other hand is of the opposite thought. The level of understanding between Homura and Mami does not indicate that they are acquainted at all.
3. The feeling of loneliness plagues Mami. She as a character is defined by having to having radiate an air of competence and perform, despite whatever she might be troubled with.
4. Homura possesses clear understanding over the price to be paid in this arrangement. Her emotions betray her in numerous shots about the enormity of the situation.


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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-01-20 at 20:08. Reason: fill in some stuff.
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Old 2011-01-20, 15:58   Link #33
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So rewatching the ED sequence I just realized Madoka is passing a new character (the 2nd one)... Guess the redhair from the OP will be the 5th puella magi?
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Old 2011-01-20, 16:21   Link #34
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So rewatching the ED sequence I just realized Madoka is passing a new character (the 2nd one)... Guess the redhair from the OP will be the 5th puella magi?
Most likely.

But then again the OP does show....ahem *everyone* being happy and stuff....and we all know what just happened.
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Old 2011-01-20, 21:29   Link #35
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So, this place is for speculation. Theory: One of the girls wishes for Mami to be brought back to life, and it works. However, when/if they discover that Kyubey isn't good and they have to fight him, it means the wishes will be undone, and Mami will die again. They do it anyway because it has to be done, and there's a tearful goodbye and everything.

Does that qualify as "bittersweet" enough for those who insist we can't have a happy ending?

Apologies for the lack of proper descriptiveness to set the scene, but I don't feel like putting in the effort to be detailed right now. Recent events in the show are bothering me. But I think you all can at least understand what I'm speculating.
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Old 2011-01-20, 22:01   Link #36
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I'd like to take down some part about time-loop that i posted some days ago. Now that i look at it, it must have been the Barrier instead of an actual Bad Future. Homura screamed because she knows that Kyubey is going to drag another girl (Madoka) to hell, and warn her the next day.
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Old 2011-01-20, 22:22   Link #37
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The more I look at Kyuube's stoic unchanging smile the more it scares me. This creature is pure evil. There, I've officially declared myself in the Kyuube is evil camp. I suspect the shades of grey between good and evil will get very blurred with the forthcoming episodes. Perhaps it is more apropos to say that this may be a kaleidescope of human folly, hope, dreams against a backdrop of pain, despair and loneliness.
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Old 2011-01-20, 23:55   Link #38
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Interesting speculation I read on /a/: What if Madoka never actually becomes a magical girl?
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Old 2011-01-21, 01:44   Link #39
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Guys, i have new speculah. What if everything is just a delusion that Madoka plays in her head as she's in comatose? She lost her family due to something beyond her control, and now she stages delusion where she's a magical girl who can do anything, ultimately being capable of saving her family from that something that will appear soon.

Other than her family, every other players on the stage are based on something familiar to her. For example, judging from how Mami dies she's based on a cake ("Charlotte") that she loves, and Homura is based on her aloof black cat. Kyubey is based on generic fairies in magical girl anime that she loves to watch, but due to the gruesome nature of her family's death, this fairies is twisted into a Faustian horror, because Madoka have stopped to believe that there's a benevolent God.

The part of Madoka that wants to awaken from this comatose try to warp this sweet dream into nightmare, and it's Kyubey's role to do that. The part of her that don't want to awaken is represented by Homura.

tl;dr: Mami is a cake and Homura is a cat.
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Old 2011-01-21, 02:49   Link #40
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Cheapens the story too much. Definitely not like Urobuchi Gen to cop out like that... guy's intense, even if I greatly disagree with people who seem to think he's all dark, all the time.
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