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Old 2011-01-18, 15:54   Link #7341
Sol Falling
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Nice that we're talking about Shirley in the Lelouch thread. As for me, I think there'd never be any grave rolling from Euphie or Shirley (at least in terms of Zero: Requiem). For those two people, Lelouch was far more important than any hatred or fixed moral viewpoint. Euphemia forgave Lelouch's murder of her brother and countless other people in a bid to restore his and his sister's past happiness, even sacrificing her royal name to do so. Shirley on the other hand looked past the loss of her own father and, as a normal schoolgirl, a much more fundamental/instinctual rejection of death, terrorism against her own country, and destruction to instead devote her heart to saving Lelouch from a world of lies and loneliness. What Euphie and Shirley had, far above any moral certanties, was simply compassion for Lelouch's struggle and suffering. Their goal was to show him that the world wasn't so evil or lonely as he thought it was, and that there really was a place where he could reach and attain happiness.

And in the end, despite however much suffering (both his own and that of other people's) Lelouch had to swallow, that was ultimately what Lelouch passed the world with Zero Re:quiem as well. He made terrible sacrifices, yes, but from his heart Lelouch was passing on a message Shirley and Euphie had left to him: throw away your hatred, live for happiness tomorrow, the world is a better place than you thought it was. Shirley and Euphie were trying to teach Lelouch that hope exists, and that was precisely the essence of Zero Re:quiem's intention. It might be sad that it is not Lelouch receiving this message; it might be sad that Lelouch chose to give his own life up just to pass it to others--However I think ultimately, despite everything, Shirley and Euphie would have simply welcomed Lelouch with gentleness and happiness. Lelouch chose his path out of genuine hope and altruism. Whatever the outcome, he has also already paid in pain for it. Given these two things, from Shirley and Euphie's perspective, I think there really wouldn't be anything to do except to simply forgive him for it. If an omni-present perspective after death could give people anything, after all, that thing must certainly be compassion.

'Tadaima. You've worked hard. Now you can rest.' That's how I see it happening.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-01-18 at 16:09.
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Old 2011-01-18, 18:01   Link #7342
Xander
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If an omni-present perspective after death could give people anything, after all, that thing must certainly be compassion.

'Tadaima. You've worked hard. Now you can rest.' That's how I see it happening.
In terms of a hypothetical meeting taking place in the World of C or something along those lines, I would agree with that. However, if both of them were still alive and had to live through all of the events of R2...compassion wouldn't be impossible, admittedly, but it would be a lot more difficult for them to agree with what Lelouch was actually doing even if they were still able to ultimately understand and forgive him.

Then again, if Euphemia and/or Shirley were involved, it's rather likely that the plot would have ended up going in a significantly or moderately different direction to begin with. It would be a lot closer to a straightforward tale of personal redemption and forgiveness instead of a tale where the message of hope is born out of destruction and self-damnation (which makes it ring hollow for critics and cynics even if romantics and idealists tend to appreciate it).
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Old 2011-01-18, 23:51   Link #7343
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Aiding the oppressors in the futile hope that it will make things better? Not my kind of righteousness - I'd rather stick with Lelouch, then. He's somewhere between Schneizel's cold utilitiarianism and Suzaku's twisted "the means justify the end", and while his way of doing things is highly questionable, I at least think he has the right concerns, generally speaking. He just sucks when it comes to the way he deals with them.
So you'd rather see millions die because it would be the righteous thing to do?

what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
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Old 2011-01-19, 00:13   Link #7344
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*agrees with Sol Falling*

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
So you'd rather see millions die because it would be the righteous thing to do?

what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
I never said Lelouch was righteous - just that as far as I'm concerned, he's more righteous than Suzaku. And where did Lelouch kill "millions" before Zero Requiem, for which Suzaku is just as responsible?

Zero had just as many supporters as Euphie's Knight did, but the difference is that Suzaku was merely lucky. Without the Lancelot, even without Euphie, no one would ever have believed in his methods - heck, he'd have died long ago -, and even then, his chances weren't all that great. No one has the "right" to drag people into something life-threatening, but no one has the "right" to support a cruel tyranny at their expense, either. You should think the Shinjuku massacre and Cornelia's attempt to repeat it can speak for themselves where the Empire's opinion of "Numbers" is concerned. Suzaku only worried about methods, Schneizel only cared about results. Lelouch claimed to only care about results, but actually was fairly conscious of the means he used to achieve them, and in theory, I think that's a good idea.


Edit: Forgot some words. xD
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Old 2011-01-19, 01:54   Link #7345
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
In terms of a hypothetical meeting taking place in the World of C or something along those lines, I would agree with that. However, if both of them were still alive and had to live through all of the events of R2...compassion wouldn't be impossible, admittedly, but it would be a lot more difficult for them to agree with what Lelouch was actually doing even if they were still able to ultimately understand and forgive him.

Then again, if Euphemia and/or Shirley were involved, it's rather likely that the plot would have ended up going in a significantly or moderately different direction to begin with. It would be a lot closer to a straightforward tale of personal redemption and forgiveness instead of a tale where the message of hope is born out of destruction and self-damnation (which makes it ring hollow for critics and cynics even if romantics and idealists tend to appreciate it).
Yes, I think both Euphie and Shirley's deaths were major turning points for Lelouch's character and the overall story potential. Zero Re:quiem is the best ending I believe we could have hoped for after it become clear Lelouch's path of carnage/revenge would be followed to completion. What Lelouch would have required is actual hope for the world to have chosen otherwise; and Euphie and Shirley's deaths each represented major losses of his few possible sources of it. I think for that reason, after their deaths, Euphie/Shirley would just be glad Lelouch eventually learned hope at all. Had they been alive and these things still happened though, I certainly agree they'd be very upset they let it get that far.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
So you'd rather see millions die because it would be the righteous thing to do?

what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
Exactly. Personally, I think it is really important to note that despite his political ideals and secondary actions, Lelouch's motivation was explicitly a personal matter. Lelouch wanted to destroy Britannia for himself, not for the people; he wanted a gentle world for his sister to live in, not for the people. Lelouch was knowingly making sacrifices through the course of his revolution, which were fundamentally illegitimate in the context of happiness for all Japanese people. This is a foundational aspect of Lelouch's character, part of what makes him human, but it is also an immediate disqualifier for his revolution being evaluated as being 'correct' objectively. You cannot say that all Lelouch's actions were in fact justified, because he was only serving the portion of Japan amenable to his greater interests.

Remove every personal aspect from Lelouch's revolution, and I'm not sure if even Lelouch himself would believe it was right to have started it.

edit:

lol, Nogitsune, sorry for disagreeing with you right after you back me up on the Shirley issue. I think the important point of Suzaku's righteousness, is that the result he is looking at is actually Japan's happiness. For Lelouch, meanwhile, his desired result was actually Britannia's destruction, with Japan's happiness coming about as an after-effect. Or if we put it this way: for Lelouch, the result of Japan's happiness was also less important than the means of Britannia's destruction, just like Suzaku's result was secondary to his means of reforms internally. The difference is, one path embraced needless death and destruction for personal reasons, whereas the other one tried its best to prevent loss on either side, no matter the victim. Lelouch and Suzaku's characters both change throughout the series eventually--Lelouch slowly accepting more and more heroism as his responsibility (although still driven by revenge first and foremost I think), Suzaku meanwhile growing more and more uninhibited in his pursuit of power (again still for Japan; a fascinating contrast morally)--but at least at the start of the series, I think there is absolutely no question who is the more righteous one.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-01-19 at 02:42.
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Old 2011-01-19, 09:40   Link #7346
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
edit:
lol, Nogitsune, sorry for disagreeing with you right after you back me up on the Shirley issue.
Ah, that's all right. xD

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I think the important point of Suzaku's righteousness, is that the result he is looking at is actually Japan's happiness. For Lelouch, meanwhile, his desired result was actually Britannia's destruction, with Japan's happiness coming about as an after-effect.
Let's not forget Suzaku's death wish and his childhood trauma, though, which influenced the large majority of his decision and weren't any less personal than Lelouch's fixation on Nunnally and thirst for revenge. I also don't think that Lelouch was concerned so much about Japan as about the world as a whole - yes, Nunnally was by far his main motivation in wanting to create a gentle world, but just like Suzaku, he spoke of breaking the cycle of hatred long before Zero Requiem and was appalled by the way people suffered because of Britannia.

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Or if we put it this way: for Lelouch, the result of Japan's happiness was also less important than the means of Britannia's destruction, just like Suzaku's result was secondary to his means of reforms internally.
Hm, I'm not sure I understood you correctly here, but to me, both destroying Britannia and creating a gentle world were "results" to Lelouch.

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The difference is, one path embraced needless death and destruction for personal reasons,
I think it often -was- necessary, though, despite a lot of shit Lelouch doubtlessly did to further his goals.

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whereas the other one tried its best to prevent loss on either side, no matter the victim.
Yeah, Suzaku tried to give everyone a happy ending, but by going about it the way he did, he was (at least in the beginning) only helping Britannia, which was causing people a lot of suffering. Hurting others by proxy and not having any realistic hope of achieving anything by it is worse than hurting them directly for the chance to change something, as far as I'm concerned.

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Lelouch and Suzaku's characters both change throughout the series eventually--Lelouch slowly accepting more and more heroism as his responsibility (although still driven by revenge first and foremost I think), Suzaku meanwhile growing more and more uninhibited in his pursuit of power (again still for Japan; a fascinating contrast morally)--but at least at the start of the series, I think there is absolutely no question who is the more righteous one.
Suzaku was certainly a traditional "hero" at first glance, but his issues got in the way. Even his more understandable actions are often highly questionable - like when he almost got him and Lelouch killed by Schneizel, leaving Japan and the rest of the world at the mercy of Britannia and depriving the Japanese of both their symbols of hope.
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Old 2011-01-19, 20:28   Link #7347
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I think it often -was- necessary, though, despite a lot of shit Lelouch doubtlessly did to further his goals.
I am sure most of it was self-inflicted wound type propaganda, with a serving of geass.

One thing about Suzaku was that he wanted death more than he wanted to achieve his goal. Perhaps his main thought was to be killed instead of changing Britania from within, which makes him a giga hypocrite.
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Old 2011-01-21, 10:22   Link #7348
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If all Suzaku cared about was dying to atone for killing his father, he would've committed suicide. He wanted, above all else, for his death to at least have some meaning. That's why when Jeremiah and Villetta frame him for Clovis' murder, he is fine with being executed for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, he is getting his punishment of killing his father, but he is also taking responsibility to save all the other Honarary Britannians from suffering. This is why he doesn't escape/join the resistance. He even says it on screen, "if I go, they'll go after all the honorary Britannians". Besides, Suzaku didn't lose faith in the system like Lelouch and Kallen...
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Old 2011-01-21, 13:23   Link #7349
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If all Suzaku cared about was dying to atone for killing his father, he would've committed suicide. He wanted, above all else, for his death to at least have some meaning. That's why when Jeremiah and Villetta frame him for Clovis' murder, he is fine with being executed for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, he is getting his punishment of killing his father, but he is also taking responsibility to save all the other Honarary Britannians from suffering. This is why he doesn't escape/join the resistance. He even says it on screen, "if I go, they'll go after all the honorary Britannians".
No one said Suzaku only cared about his own death wish - he didn't even really admit it to himself, after all. However, neither does Lelouch only care about Nunnally and his revenge. If that was the case, he would have gone for even more efficient and bloody methods from the start, and he would not have spoken along with Suzaku about wanting to end all the hate and suffering in episode 5. Lelouch never liked seeing people in pain, but thanks to his issues, his priorities got pretty scary at times. Suzaku isn't really different in that respect - they are just twisted in different ways.

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Besides, Suzaku didn't lose faith in the system like Lelouch and Kallen...
And that makes him more righteous than them how?
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Old 2011-01-21, 14:31   Link #7350
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Lelouch only cared about people other than himself, Nunnaly and Suzaku, when they were of some use to him in his crusade against daddy.

He hijacked the resistance movement in Japan because he needed an army to accomplish his goals. Liberating Japan and handing out their own form of justice was just how he manipulated them. Lelouch was a genius, and he had lived in Japan for a long time, he understood the Japanese mindset and knew exactly what buttons to push. He never gave a crap about the cause, and it became pretty obvious in episode 25, when he leaves Tokyo and cuts off all communications with the BKs.

Now, as for the righteousness part, at least in the first Season, Suzaku has no innocent blood in his hands. He goes by the book, even when he is falsely accused of murder, and is facing a rigged trial and execution, he stands by his beliefs. He says that courtrooms is where the truth comes out, and if he is found guilty because the trial is a farce like Lelouch says it is, then he doesn't want to live in such a world. I think that is pretty righteous of him...standing by what is right...Not like Lelouch and Kallen who like to lash out at the world. Suzaku doesn't even go for kills, except post-Euphie's death. Kallen and Lelouch, well, narita ring a bell? What about the JLF Tanker? At least Kallen has the excuse of following orders, but Lelouch? HE was the one giving the frakkin orders! What's his excuse? Oh and with Katase in the tanker he didn't even bother to bring Kallen in on plan, he did it on his own, but not before mind-raping a vulnerable, easy to manipulate Kallen with some bullshit about shedding more blood because if they don't kill more people those who are dead would've died in vain....
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Old 2011-01-21, 15:38   Link #7351
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Lelouch only cared about people other than himself, Nunnaly and Suzaku, when they were of some use to him in his crusade against daddy.

He hijacked the resistance movement in Japan because he needed an army to accomplish his goals. Liberating Japan and handing out their own form of justice was just how he manipulated them. Lelouch was a genius, and he had lived in Japan for a long time, he understood the Japanese mindset and knew exactly what buttons to push. He never gave a crap about the cause, and it became pretty obvious in episode 25, when he leaves Tokyo and cuts off all communications with the BKs.

Now, as for the righteousness part, at least in the first Season, Suzaku has no innocent blood in his hands. He goes by the book, even when he is falsely accused of murder, and is facing a rigged trial and execution, he stands by his beliefs. He says that courtrooms is where the truth comes out, and if he is found guilty because the trial is a farce like Lelouch says it is, then he doesn't want to live in such a world. I think that is pretty righteous of him...standing by what is right...Not like Lelouch and Kallen who like to lash out at the world. Suzaku doesn't even go for kills, except post-Euphie's death. Kallen and Lelouch, well, narita ring a bell? What about the JLF Tanker? At least Kallen has the excuse of following orders, but Lelouch? HE was the one giving the frakkin orders! What's his excuse? Oh and with Katase in the tanker he didn't even bother to bring Kallen in on plan, he did it on his own, but not before mind-raping a vulnerable, easy to manipulate Kallen with some bullshit about shedding more blood because if they don't kill more people those who are dead would've died in vain....
Suzaku lashed out at the world the most, especially after Euphemia died. He also did not explain how it would serve his cause if he is to be thrown in the garbage under the order of Superior ( who would be more than happy to get rid of another Eleven ) thus Suzaku's religious jealousy only made him look like looser. It took millions of life lost to wake up Suzaku
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:01   Link #7352
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Lelouch only cared about people other than himself, Nunnaly and Suzaku, when they were of some use to him in his crusade against daddy.
What about Shirley, Milly, Rivalz, C.C.,...? Lelouch certainly proved that he cared about them on occasion - even in S1. He just wasn't obsessed with them.

He also only got his Geass because he was the only one who could be bothered to help the victims of a car accident. The same can't be said for, oh, I don't know, Rivalz and about a hundred other people?

In episode 5, Lelouch talked to C.C. about the suffering he had witnessed as a child and about how he wanted to end it. He and Suzaku were saying the exact same things until they arrived at how they were going to go about it. Just because Suzaku has no idea what he is doing, doesn't mean he's a better person.

Lelouch didn't intentionally kill innocents until fairly late in the series. Even Narita was a miscalculation - yeah, he got ahead of himself, but he never resolved to kill civilians (most of whom had probably been evacuated already, anyway). He was surprised by the extend of the damage done to the mountain side.

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He hijacked the resistance movement in Japan because he needed an army to accomplish his goals. Liberating Japan and handing out their own form of justice was just how he manipulated them. Lelouch was a genius, and he had lived in Japan for a long time, he understood the Japanese mindset and knew exactly what buttons to push. He never gave a crap about the cause, and it became pretty obvious in episode 25, when he leaves Tokyo and cuts off all communications with the BKs.
Oh, come on. Just because Lelouch didn't care about them nearly as much as he did about Nunnally, doesn't mean he didn't care about them at all. Lelouch has issues. So does Suzaku - killing himself and Zero at the same time would have screwed the Japanese over, too, but do you think he gave a damn at that moment? I could as well claim Suzaku only cared about his death wish and was just using Japan as an excuse, but it's disregarding an important part of his character, and that's what you're doing with Lelouch right now. If Lelouch lied to himself (and C.C.) in episode 5, then so did Suzaku - it doesn't make sense, though.

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Now, as for the righteousness part, at least in the first Season, Suzaku has no innocent blood in his hands.
Doesn't he? If I support a cruel empire and help kill those who fight against it, can I really claim not to have any innocent blood on my hands? If I try to take away people's last hope without a second thought, does that make me righteous?

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He goes by the book, even when he is falsely accused of murder, and is facing a rigged trial and execution, he stands by his beliefs. He says that courtrooms is where the truth comes out, and if he is found guilty because the trial is a farce like Lelouch says it is, then he doesn't want to live in such a world. I think that is pretty righteous of him...standing by what is right...
The rules of an evil empire != "what is right".
Suzaku sticks to the rules because he's afraid of doing anything else - because the last time he didn't, he kiled his own father and watched his people suffer the consequences. One could argue that he's not being righteous in the slightes, but a coward. It'd be slightly over the top in my opinion, but it seems more valid to me than the claim that Lelouch didn't give a damn when he explicitly stated otherwise even when it didn't benefit him.

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Not like Lelouch and Kallen who like to lash out at the world. Suzaku doesn't even go for kills, except post-Euphie's death. Kallen and Lelouch, well, narita ring a bell?
Lelouch and Kallen do something to change the world. Suzaku becomes an accomplice of Britannia's at first, even if he claims otherwise. Only because of the Lancelot and, more importantly, Euphie did he get the chance to achieve any noteworthy results at all. Narita -- see above.

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What about the JLF Tanker? At least Kallen has the excuse of following orders, but Lelouch? HE was the one giving the frakkin orders! What's his excuse?
Without Lelouch, the JLF would have already been finished by then. Yeah, what he did sucked, but Suzaku was worse, in my opinion, ready to kill the JLF after they'd surrendered because of the orders of an evil empire he was supporting.


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Oh and with Katase in the tanker he didn't even bother to bring Kallen in on plan, he did it on his own, but not before mind-raping a vulnerable, easy to manipulate Kallen
You make Kallen sound like Rolo.

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with some bullshit about shedding more blood because if they don't kill more people those who are dead would've died in vain....
That's what Lelouch tells himself, in case you missed how much the whole Shirley thing devastated him. He was angry at himself for hesitating even though he'd already killed Clovis with his own two hands. It was Lelouch's resolve, and he shared his convictions with Kallen. Lelouch is not a selective sociopath. He is guy with issues who way too often lets his emotions screw with him, but the same could be said for Suzaku.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:09   Link #7353
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Lelouch didn't intentionally kill innocents until fairly late in the series.
It can be believed that Lelouch intended to have the innocents gathered to migrate to the new Japan that Euphemia created killed in order to heighten his own crusade. It's my opinion that Lelouch was more than willing to kill anyone (other than Nunally) to reach his goals. His geass command on Euphemia may have seemed accidental but likely was the result of his own hidden desires and motivations.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:09   Link #7354
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Suzaku lashed out at the world the most, especially after Euphemia died. He also did not explain how it would serve his cause if he is to be thrown in the garbage under the order of Superior ( who would be more than happy to get rid of another Eleven ) thus Suzaku's religious jealousy only made him look like looser. It took millions of life lost to wake up Suzaku
Lashing out at Zero and his follows =/= lashing at the world.

He knew Zero geassed Euphie into massacring the Elevens at the Special Zone.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:14   Link #7355
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It can be believed that Lelouch intended to have the innocents gathered to migrate to the new Japan that Euphemia created killed in order to heighten his own crusade.
He wanted to make Euphie out to be evil and a Japanese audience would have helped things, but it's not like he made them attend the whole thing.

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It's my opinion that Lelouch was more than willing to kill anyone (other than Nunally) to reach his goals.
I disagree.

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His geass command on Euphemia may have seemed accidental but likely was the result of his own hidden desires and motivations.
Uh... and where's the evidence for that? Lelouch was completely and utterly devastated by the whole thing, and he looked like he wanted to run when he stood in the midst of that blood bath. Heck, he even ran after Euphie to stop her.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:17   Link #7356
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Uh... and where's the evidence for that? Lelouch was completely and utterly devastated by the whole thing, and he looked like he wanted to run when he stood in the midst of that blood bath. Heck, he even ran after Euphie to stop her.
Because geass is an extension of the user's will. As Lelouch himself says near the end of R2, "It's like a wish, don't you think?" Therefore, it may not have been a conscious desire but it was still present (and strong enough to manifest itself).
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:34   Link #7357
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Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
Because geass is an extension of the user's will. As Lelouch himself says near the end of R2, "It's like a wish, don't you think?" Therefore, it may not have been a conscious desire but it was still present (and strong enough to manifest itself).
I think it's a bit more complicated that that. Yes, Geass apparently takes the shape of a person's desire - C.C. wanted to be loved, Lelouch wanted control over his own life and the circumstances surrounding it and so on. However, I doubt Mao wanted to be unable to ever turn off his Geass again, even unconsciously, and the same goes for Lelouch.

If I remember correctly, C.C. herself says that as Geass grows more powerful, the bearer loses control over it, and that it merely depends on how much he uses it. Also, didn't she react to the change in Lelouch's Geass before he gave his order? He could have said, "Clean the toilets!" and it would have had taken effect all the same, but that wouldn't mean Lelouch secretly wanted Euphie to clean the toilets.

There's no reason for Lelouch to have wanted a massacre. Just killing a few Japanese would have had pretty much the same effect (with less psychological demage for him, I'd say), and just having Euphie shoot him would have served his purposes well enough.

Though if Lelouch was actively surpressing his secret desire to pull a Vampire of Britannia all this time, that's actually quite admirable! ;P
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:51   Link #7358
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
What about Shirley, Milly, Rivalz, C.C.,...? Lelouch certainly proved that he cared about them on occasion - even in S1. He just wasn't obsessed with them.

He also only got his Geass because he was the only one who could be bothered to help the victims of a car accident. The same can't be said for, oh, I don't know, Rivalz and about a hundred other people?
if he hadn't skipped class to go gamble he wouldn't be there to help the accident and get his geass.


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Oh, come on. Just because Lelouch didn't care about them nearly as much as he did about Nunnally, doesn't mean he didn't care about them at all. Lelouch has issues. So does Suzaku - killing himself and Zero at the same time would have screwed the Japanese over, too, but do you think he gave a damn at that moment? I could as well claim Suzaku only cared about his death wish and was just using Japan as an excuse, but it's disregarding an important part of his character, and that's what you're doing with Lelouch right now. If Lelouch lied to himself (and C.C.) in episode 5, then so did Suzaku - it doesn't make sense, though.
If Lelouch had cared about others just a little bit he wouldn't have been betrayed by his followers. Now I've said this many times, I don't agree with how the BKs betrayed him and the circumstances in which it happened, but I understand the why. The clues are all there.

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Doesn't he? If I support a cruel empire and help kill those who fight against it, can I really claim not to have any innocent blood on my hands? If I try to take away people's last hope without a second thought, does that make me righteous?
Why is the empire cruel though? Japan lost the war, but instead of getting over that fact they decided to dwell on the past and resist. They prevent any sort of reconstruction effort, allowing ghettos to exist and breed further terrorism.
If they won't bow down, they need to be put down.

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The rules of an evil empire != "what is right".
Suzaku sticks to the rules because he's afraid of doing anything else - because the last time he didn't, he kiled his own father and watched his people suffer the consequences. One could argue that he's not being righteous in the slightes, but a coward. It'd be slightly over the top in my opinion, but it seems more valid to me than the claim that Lelouch didn't give a damn when he explicitly stated otherwise even when it didn't benefit him.
It was made pretty clear that had Suzaku NOT killed his father, japan would have fought to the bitter end, and casualties would have been a lot higher, since Britannia had complete superiority over them.

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Lelouch and Kallen do something to change the world. Suzaku becomes an accomplice of Britannia's at first, even if he claims otherwise. Only because of the Lancelot and, more importantly, Euphie did he get the chance to achieve any noteworthy results at all. Narita -- see above.
Lelouch and Kallen are simply proving those who hate and mistrust the Elevens right, justifying future reprisals against them.

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Without Lelouch, the JLF would have already been finished by then. Yeah, what he did sucked, but Suzaku was worse, in my opinion, ready to kill the JLF after they'd surrendered because of the orders of an evil empire he was supporting.
What? Lelouch FINISHED OFF the JLF! He took out most of their forces at Narita, as well as what , 2 of Cornelia's divisions, but he never itnended to help them. He wanted to take advantage of the confusion created by the landslide and use the JLF as bait to keep Cornelia's forces busy while he went and captured her. This was all to, you guess it! interrogate her about Marianne's death. Btw how is that related in any way to Japan's liberation? He dealt the killing blow to the JLF with the tanker trap.


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That's what Lelouch tells himself, in case you missed how much the whole Shirley thing devastated him. He was angry at himself for hesitating even though he'd already killed Clovis with his own two hands. It was Lelouch's resolve, and he shared his convictions with Kallen. Lelouch is not a selective sociopath. He is guy with issues who way too often lets his emotions screw with him, but the same could be said for Suzaku.
He pounded the wall in his shower a couple of times, but a day later he was at it again playing chess with people's lives, using General Katase as bait to, again, capture Cornelia...Definitely wasn't devastated, at all.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:52   Link #7359
lightsenshi
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
There's no reason for Lelouch to have wanted a massacre. Just killing a few Japanese would have had pretty much the same effect (with less psychological demage for him, I'd say), and just having Euphie shoot him would have served his purposes well enough.
No, it wouldn't have. A few deaths wouldn't have anywhere near the same impact as a massacre.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:03   Link #7360
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
if he hadn't skipped class to go gamble he wouldn't be there to help the accident and get his geass.
How is that relevant?

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If Lelouch had cared about others just a little bit he wouldn't have been betrayed by his followers.
...No?

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Why is the empire cruel though? Japan lost the war, but instead of getting over that fact they decided to dwell on the past and resist. They prevent any sort of reconstruction effort, allowing ghettos to exist and breed further terrorism.
If they won't bow down, they need to be put down.
Errr. If you can't see why Britannia is not awesome, this discussion is pointless. Elevens can be beaten and who knows what else without anyone giving a damn and they are forever second class citizens at best. Charles cheers for discrimination and keeps invading countries and discarding the weak. Cornelia killed innocent people, even children, like they were nothing. The Japanese were willing to cooperate with Euphie just fine - just because they don't want to be trampled upon doesn't mean they like terrorism. In fact, the Japanese only rarely supporterd terrorism when they thought they had a choice, which is why Zero and Suzaku became so popular in such a short time. They represented hope and some form of "justice" to them.

Saying Britannia is all right and Lelouch is evil is something I can't even fathom.

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It was made pretty clear that had Suzaku NOT killed his father, japan would have fought to the bitter end, and casualties would have been a lot higher, since Britannia had complete superiority over them.
Doesn't change the fact that the Japanese suffered after Britannia invaded and Suzaku blamed himself for it, leading to him sticking to the rules at any cost.

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Lelouch and Kallen are simply proving those who hate and mistrust the Elevens right, justifying future reprisals against them.
Yeah, let's not fight back if someone hits us, especially if they do so for 7 whole years - we'd be proving them right!

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What? Lelouch FINISHED OFF the JLF! He took out most of their forces at Narita, as well as what , 2 of Cornelia's divisions, but he never itnended to help them. He wanted to take advantage of the confusion created by the landslide and use the JLF as bait to keep Cornelia's forces busy while he went and captured her. This was all to, you guess it! interrogate her about Marianne's death. Btw how is that related in any way to Japan's liberation? He dealt the killing blow to the JLF with the tanker trap.
Cornelia went to Narita to finisht off the JLF, and she looked like she knew what she was doing. They wouldn't have stood a chance. Lelouch didn't intend to help them, but he certainly provided an oppurtunity for some of them to escape.

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He pounded the wall in his shower a couple of times, but a day later he was at it again playing chess with people's lives, using General Katase as bait to, again, capture Cornelia...Definitely wasn't devastated, at all.
When Lelouch gets over things, he gets over them (well, or at least: he doesn't keep moping). It was the same with Nunnally's becoming governor, and even when she "died". It's not that Lelouch doesn't care, it's that he doesn't show it in a way you consider valid.
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