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Old 2011-01-21, 03:20   Link #2021
KLGChaos
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So basically, any feeling of the girl being with another guy, or any jealousy at all, is NTR. Which means that every manga that even features a male rival would fall under NTR by your definition. That's a lot of manga to rage over for the mildest stuff. :/
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Old 2011-01-21, 03:28   Link #2022
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
So basically, any feeling of the girl being with another guy is NTR. Which means that every manga that even features a male rival would fall under NTR by your definition. That's a lot of manga to rage over for the mildest stuff. :/
The flashback has to be detailed though. It doesnt work as a simple fact. You need to see stuff. How many stories actually show it? Quite little usually it is just mentioned as a fact or not even mentioned but detailed flashback works (usually in NTR games they just use tapes instead of flasbacks).

Thats what I said it needs stuff to be done to count as NTR. Sometimes a simple fact causes NTR rage (Kunnagi anyone?) but it is not NTR as long as you dont have painful details flashed to you.

Just having male rival obviously is not enough, he needs to be close/intimate to heroine for it to become NTR and create NTR feelings.
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Old 2011-01-21, 09:40   Link #2023
Kusa-San
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I think we're all agree that after reading the chapter 66, Tohru is an asshole, a douchebag, a bastard and should be put in jail for what he did

Utsumi reaction's is not so surprising. It's hard to deal with that. Just give him a day or two and I'm sure he will do whatever he can for Yuki. And I hope that if he see Tohru, he will just punch him hard on his little asshole's face.
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Old 2011-01-21, 10:42   Link #2024
TCman
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Why is Yuki at fault? She's clearly a victim of her ex-boyfriend Touru who wanted to bet with his friends and began to seduce her in order to have sex with her, and the videotape is the proof for the bet (otherwise why would anyone believe you, right?). Yeah he wanted money and sex for free.

Yuki feels betrayed by Touru since it's not about true love, but it's all about money, Touru wanted to make love not out of love but because of the money he could get from the bet he made with his friends. Also the importance of virginity for a girl in Asia (e.g. China or Japan) is pretty different than people think here in the western world. So you loose your most important thing in your life to some bastard who lied to you that he loves you. Also people implying that this is not Yuki's first time of having sex, well, I think it's her very first time, since she's against it at the very beginning but Touru constantly tried to convince her to do it with him since he said he loved her ("lovers do that", implying that it's normal to do it).

All this makes Yuki into the girl we see now who's insecure around men (particularly after what she has experienced with Touru). That's why she doesn't want to experience similar things that's so painful again, especially after she saw Seiji Utsumi hugging Shou back in chapter 60. I guess Yuki saw this as a kind of betrayal (again). Why is Utsumi always this clueless if it comes to the feelings of others, especially when he's around Yuki? Isn't he coming a bit too close near Shou and even hugs her so tightly when or after he says he is currently in love with Yuki? For an outsider, wouldn't this look like two-timing?
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Old 2011-01-21, 10:42   Link #2025
ZODDGUTS
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Here's a more clearer and deeper explanation of several kinds of NTR:


Spoiler for NTR Explanation:
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Old 2011-01-21, 10:49   Link #2026
Kusa-San
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCman View Post

All this makes Yuki into the girl we see now who's insecure around men (particularly after what she has experienced with Touru). That's why she doesn't want to experience similar things that's so painful again, especially after she saw Seiji Utsumi hugging Shou back in chapter 60. I guess Yuki saw this as a kind of betrayal (again). Why is Utsumi always this clueless if it comes to the feelings of others, especially when he's around Yuki? Isn't he coming a bit to close near Shou and even hugs her so tightly when or after he says he is currently in love with Yuki? For an outsider, wouldn't this look like two-timing?
I agree it's not Yuki's fault and of course it's Touru's fault. Who can say the contrary ? However, you can't say it's Utsumi fault when he knows nothing about her past. The truth is Yuki and Utsumi can't be blame for their actions. That's just how it is.
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Old 2011-01-21, 10:52   Link #2027
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I still believe it will go as I suggested earlier. Yuki has revealed everything from her side to Utsumi. Her reaction is going to probably be remorse and shame. That's how she looked as she left Utsumi on the roof. First she looks hopeful as he processes it. Then she looks uncertain as he grabs her arm, followed by remorse/shame as she walks away for the door. It is as though all of the fears that caused her to lash out earlier in defense are beginning to overtake over her. (Fortunately the Mangaka is a brilliant illustrator!)

Utsumi looks like he wants to just comfort her, but is overcome and doesn't know what to do. His last panel makes him look like he knows he should man-up, but can't quite get himself there.

I expect that Touru, for his part probably WAS driven by a mix of hormones and pride. If he was a "pretty boy" like the kid in class said he was, he likely also was lauding it over the others that he has the prettiest girlfriend, that they had known each other for years and that he could do anything he wanted with her. If this was the challenge, the rest of the boys, all being hormone fueled too, would start the whole bet thing, and as has been stated by Dark above, suggesting the location as "safe" would be a natural trap. Driven by his desire to prove to them all that he was all that he claimed, he'd pressure Yuki to the full extent even using the "you don't love me then" card, which is unfair but common. Yuki being young, trusting and naive, acquiesces.

The boys wanting their "proof" and a chance to get their jollies AND strike out at Touru's heart by getting to his girlfriend in retaliation for having to pay on a bet would set up the recorder and giggle as Touru comes in with Yuki and does the deed, falling right into their trap. They may have even managed to waylay Touru the next day to keep him from getting to class before Yuki, so that they could spring it on her. Not unheard of machinations...

So where does this leave us? Sasuga-sama has created a conundrum for the readers where Touru is now proven to be the ultimate evil guy. I feel it will likely turn out he is the ultimate patsy, falling for a trick by his classmates and losing his girlfriend and reputation all in one fell swoop. Its been made clear that he's still looking for Yuki and that he's nearby her, going to a prep school... I think probably the SAME one she is going to. Now the trap is set for us: Yuki is ashamed of her past actions and for admitting them to Utsumi thinking that it will make things better, but instead interpreting the hesitation we JUST witnessed as a new wall going up on HIS side. Utsumi's hesitation will create uncertainty in his mind, and since he's prone to analysis paralysis, he'll ruminate too long about HOW to approach Yuki again to say he's OK with it and doesn't blame HER, thus opening a time and silence gap that will SEEM insurmountable to both of them. At this point Touru will finally catch up to Yuki, and get to explain that the boys were lying about his knowing about the camera and prostrating himself before her. She will feel that she's not worthy of Utsumi, is damaged goods and can ONLY be with Touru because it is fated that they get back together since they must bear the shame together, as no one else would have either of them.

The rest of the story will involve Utsumi having to grow a pair and wresting Yuki away from Touru by PROVING to her how much he loves her and how Touru is only trying to assuage his own guilt by staying with her.
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Old 2011-01-21, 11:12   Link #2028
TCman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
I agree it's not Yuki's fault and of course it's Touru's fault. Who can say the contrary ? However, you can't say it's Utsumi fault when he knows nothing about her past. The truth is Yuki and Utsumi can't be blame for their actions. That's just how it is.
Well, what I actually mean is that Utsumi should have been more considerate even when he just knows alittle about Yuki's past, but what he knows for certain is that Yuki has a really painful past, so painful that she doesn't want to talk about it 'till now. Also at the end of chapter 66, Utsumi reacted totally incorrect when he has ever said he loves Yuki and is in love with her: he just stand there and tried to grab Yuki's hand. A similar hug back in chapter 60, but then with Yuki here, would have helped alot in this kind of situation. Should his answer to Yuki's revelation of her past be: "It does not matter what your past is. What matters is that I love you and you love me", or similar like that (but then the ending of the manga would come very soon (happy ending) and we can't enjoy from this manga anymore). Instead he becomes quiet, very quiet, he doesn't even know what to say to Yuki and can't do anything to support Yuki as her boyfriend.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:07   Link #2029
n0c0ntr0l
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But it was also why he didnt have sex with her in the end as well. The scene popped in his head and he stopped. So it does bother him. Not the virginity but imagining her having sex with another guy.
Opposite way around. He imagined her and kento having sex and THEN he made a move. Geez stop fabricating plotlines to fit with your argument, it gets old.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:14   Link #2030
Nemuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
She will feel that she's not worthy of Utsumi, is damaged goods and can ONLY be with Touru because it is fated that they get back together since they must bear the shame together, as no one else would have either of them.

The rest of the story will involve Utsumi having to grow a pair and wresting Yuki away from Touru by PROVING to her how much he loves her and how Touru is only trying to assuage his own guilt by staying with her.
Lol, why does that sentence feels like a bad fanfic Well I'm praying the story doesn't move in that direction that would be horribly cliché and overly ridden with unnecessary drama.

However I'm hoping that Yuki will realise two things, first is events from the past does not drive the current timeline. In this case Touru lost his chance and his girlfriend whether intentional or not the underlying fact is he did still make a bet with his classmate. It is rather too late to reconcile after so much time has past with the current Yuki who has experience a new love. Strangely enough this event does remind me of video girl Ai so I will leave this quote.

Spoiler for Volume 8:


The second would be the realisation of the present which more or less follows up on my first point. There's too much development between Utsumi and Yuki already at current, it's more or less proven how much Utsumi loves Yuki but I don't see Utsumi needing to wrestle Yuki away from Touru, while his personality seems to be the only barricade atm although with acceptance it wouldn't be farfetched to resolve it within 1 or 2 chapters. And lastly from the beginning of this series I always felt Yuki's lesson will become vital towards the end of this series. One of the strong focal point of this series is in its ability to portrayals each individual, being able to move forward from their own relational issues. Hopefully it will be a self realisation rather dependency on Utsumi that heals Yuki.

P.s more shou-senpai ^^,
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:29   Link #2031
Rainrir
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One of the themes of the series ( stated in a blurb, arguably from the author, but could possibly from the editor instead) is the idea of how a "man" is going to handle things like love and romance in the modern age.

You know, without becoming one of the thoughful and progressive, but also spineless and lack ambition "grass eating men"; or the assertive and driven, but also insensitive and boorish "old fashion samurai men" of Japan. Japanese masculinity, especially with regards to their relationship with modern Japanese women, had never been more pressing need of a revamp as it is now...There needs to be reconcilation between the two extremes, GE is trying to provide one of the many possible answers in Utsumi's development.

So take what you will. Utsumi screwing up is a given.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:36   Link #2032
MrTerrorist
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Finally knowing what really happen makes me hate Tooru even more. What he did to Yuki was the worse thing you ever do to someone you love. It was understandable that Utsumi did nothing as he wanted comfort her but he doesn't know how after learning the pain Yuki had to experience.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:17   Link #2033
HayashiTakara
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It seems that everyone's suspicions even my own, about what happened to Yuki was true after all. Man, this is gonna be a first for a shonen series to have a "non-pure" girl lead
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:57   Link #2034
Darknemo2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
Opposite way around. He imagined her and kento having sex and THEN he made a move. Geez stop fabricating plotlines to fit with your argument, it gets old.
I am not making anything to fit my argument. The problem is that I don't remember those well enough. In fact I don't care much about this manga. Thus I didnt recall the phone at all, and thus in my head I remembered the event as in he was on top on her then had the memory and backed off because of it, while in reality he had an anger fit and backed off because of the call.

When you pointed this out I went and reread the chapter and you are right - he had and anger fit, but was that really move to love making? It didnt seem to me this way - it was closer to angry sex than something romantic. But yeah you are right - he probably wont be limp because of that, but forcing someone in bed due to anger isnt all that much more healthy either.

And I dont think this classifies as a shounen anymore - its a seinen really. Even demographic that it aims to is not the typical shounen one either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
Here's a more clearer and deeper explanation of several kinds of NTR:
Spoiler for NTR Explanation:
Yes and its done by one of the english NTR 'fathers' (in a sens e of amking the term popular) - fhc. But it was also made back in 2006 or 2007.
Since I am an uploader and also a tagger of the stuff on a few sites I also came across to a few NTR tagged (by authors themselves) material that doenst fit your real Type A and Type B and Type C NTR.

I came across few games tagged as NTR while technically the heros wife (and in one case girl-friend) never NTR's because alll he finds are tapes of her previous adventures before meeting him. But since it is done in details and causes the same rage as your usual NTR does it is tagged as NTR.
However I only recall one case of the flashback of the past tagged as NTR. It was Love Plus doujin where it is told from heroines POV and where she remembers her past with her previous boyfriend while chatting with her current one. Of course it is done with all painful details.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2011-01-21 at 17:19.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:26   Link #2035
frubam
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Finally knowing what really happen makes me hate Tooru even more. What he did to Yuki was the worse thing you ever do to someone you love. .
Come on now, you can't earnestly believe that he secretly seduced his childhood friend with an evil grin on his face, all due to some bet he made with his classmates do you? We never even hear his side of the story. Those guys might have been jealous of him(they called him a "pretty boy") and tried to screw him over, getting lucky footage of them having sex. Even Yuki's [former] best friend didn't even SUBTLY say "Tooru is a bastard!!!", so there has to be some logical explanation for what happened that doesn't make Tooru a SOB.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:35   Link #2036
jzmagic
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Come on now, you can't earnestly believe that he secretly seduced his childhood friend with an evil grin on his face, all due to some bet he made with his classmates do you? We never even hear his side of the story. Those guys might have been jealous of him(they called him a "pretty boy") and tried to screw him over, getting lucky footage of them having sex. Even Yuki's [former] best friend didn't even SUBTLY say "Tooru is a bastard!!!", so there has to be some logical explanation for what happened that doesn't make Tooru a SOB.
He's a jerk to us, but the mangaka set it up so that he will redeemed somehow in the end, since we haven't heard his side. I think there's 50/50 chance Yuki will end up with Touru in the end.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:46   Link #2037
DragoZERO
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A fixed Yuki with Utsumi is the ultimate good end. You know I am right. A true end would be something like Utsumi being unable to help Yuki, she moves away and Utsumi finds someone else.
I suppose. You'd expect a True Ending to be the best one... but it isn't always.

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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
So basically, any feeling of the girl being with another guy, or any jealousy at all, is NTR. Which means that every manga that even features a male rival would fall under NTR by your definition. That's a lot of manga to rage over for the mildest stuff. :/
The basic thing is did the protag know about it. That is what made Utsumi seeing Shou with that guy NTR, he didn't know until it was too late.



Someone come up with a word for when it happens before the guy, they are not in a relationship or in contact, or when he sees a relationship progress and does nothing.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:54   Link #2038
n0c0ntr0l
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Originally Posted by jzmagic View Post
He's a jerk to us, but the mangaka set it up so that he will redeemed somehow in the end, since we haven't heard his side. I think there's 50/50 chance Yuki will end up with Touru in the end.
Here are the problems:

1. How did the head douche know that Touru had suddenly been pushing Yuki into having sex? I mean Yuki herself said it, it was all very innocent and then suddenly Touru was trying to get into her pants.


2. How did the douche and the other guy know precisely WHEN and WHERE Touru and Yuki would have sex? And even if they did overhear. They would have had to get there BEFORE Yuki and Touru. The only explanation really is that Touru told them WHERE he was planning to deflower Yuki in order to win the bet.


Don't get me wrong. I still think Touru actually liked Yuki, he saw it as getting 3 things done at once, he'd get to have sex with the girl he loved, he'd get money and he'd get the assholes to stop teasing him. It probably didn't cross his mind though that those guys would film it.
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Old 2011-01-21, 18:18   Link #2039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
Here are the problems:

1. How did the head douche know that Touru had suddenly been pushing Yuki into having sex? I mean Yuki herself said it, it was all very innocent and then suddenly Touru was trying to get into her pants.


2. How did the douche and the other guy know precisely WHEN and WHERE Touru and Yuki would have sex? And even if they did overhear. They would have had to get there BEFORE Yuki and Touru. The only explanation really is that Touru told them WHERE he was planning to deflower Yuki in order to win the bet.


Don't get me wrong. I still think Touru actually liked Yuki, he saw it as getting 3 things done at once, he'd get to have sex with the girl he loved, he'd get money and he'd get the assholes to stop teasing him. It probably didn't cross his mind though that those guys would film it.
Or the douche had suggested for Touro the safe spot on school and placed the cam there knowing he will do it, specially if they pushed him into it. Touro may still not know about it - all you need is that the another guy to be really manipulating about it, thats all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Someone come up with a word for when it happens before the guy, they are not in a relationship or in contact, or when he sees a relationship progress and does nothing.
The word is still netorare since it causes the very same emotion as other netorare cases, so I dont see the need to come up with another word for that.
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Old 2011-01-21, 18:38   Link #2040
frubam
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Originally Posted by Dark View Post
Or the douche had suggested for Touro the safe spot on school and placed the cam there knowing he will do it, specially if they pushed him into it. Touro may still not know about it - all you need is that the another guy to be really manipulating about it, thats all.
I'll concur with this as well. They just seemed too eager to tell Yuki and everyone else about the tape. Normally, even if Tooru was being a manipulative douche, the guys would snicker and smirk at Yuki, maybe even try her themselves, but would NEVER tell her right off the bat about it on the first day. It's just too darn fishy.
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