AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-01-22, 01:50   Link #2061
ZODDGUTS
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Yuki should have pull the "If you love me than you should wait till I'm ready, if not than it's over between us since you obviously wanted my body instead of actually loving me" card. That's one way that women often test man if there only after there bodies (hit it and quit it) or actually love them enough to wait till there ready. She also could have said that if they do actually end up doing it wont be in the School of all places because she's not going to cheapen herself like that.
ZODDGUTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 04:34   Link #2062
Ultenth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Washington State
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
It wasn't luck. Just because in America they only push abstinence doesn't mean this is the case in the rest of the world. Here we actually get taught to use condoms etc. And I've never not worn a condom (girlfriend on the pill is excluded). In the neatherlands the parents talk to their kids about sex and they even allow teens to sleep in the same bed under their roof and look at this, they have one of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in the world. If you are stupid enough to have unprotected sex then you deserve everything you get, but a lot of people are not and actually wrap up where I'm from.
While those things are important, and do actually help, a large portion of why certain countries (sweden, japan, the swiss, netherlands, etc.) are low in teen pregnancy is because they are simply countries where there is a large amount of old people, and not many young people. If you want a true picture you need to take teen pregnancy rate per actual amount of teenagers, not just general population.

Seriously, compare the countries that are low teen pregnancy with those that are the oldest in median age, and you'll find the lists to be nearly identical. Which is also why in some of those countries, especially Japan, there is actually a large worry of a dramatic population decrease due to low birth rates.

Your point is still valid in some ways, but the information with which you tried to increase it's strength was not.
Ultenth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 05:31   Link #2063
Rainrir
Tin Can
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultenth View Post
While those things are important, and do actually help, a large portion of why certain countries (sweden, japan, the swiss, netherlands, etc.) are low in teen pregnancy is because they are simply countries where there is a large amount of old people, and not many young people. If you want a true picture you need to take teen pregnancy rate per actual amount of teenagers, not just general population.

Seriously, compare the countries that are low teen pregnancy with those that are the oldest in median age, and you'll find the lists to be nearly identical. Which is also why in some of those countries, especially Japan, there is actually a large worry of a dramatic population decrease due to low birth rates.

Your point is still valid in some ways, but the information with which you tried to increase it's strength was not.
You have a healthy skeptism for everything. Unfortunately, teenage pregnancy rate is generally measured as a number against the number of young women under 20 experiencing a pregnancy. Statisticians are not idiots, nor are they out to get you with false infomation.
Rainrir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 06:06   Link #2064
Waven
Itadaki-nyaaa !!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
It's no secret that the average American person is rather conservative when it comes to sexual outspokenness and sex in general compared to common European "standards" , you don't need numbers for that. I don't mean to derogate this conservatism, however, any serious psychologist will confirm that repressing sexuality just makes what it actually tries to achieve worse in the end.

What I really wanted to get at, even though my first paragraph might not support that (), is that this is an old debate on principles that has already been pursued several times even here on AS. Not saying you should stop arguing about it but don't expect to change the other side's view

Back on topic: Putting all the blame on Yuki's shoulders is just plain ridiculous. It's not like she questioned their relationship to get into his pants. She also didn't set up a camera and showed it to others out of sheer group pressure or greed for money.
To put it blatantly, this notion is sexist as f*** .
It's true Yuki did a mistake here, no doubt, but that doesn't mean she is to blame for the general situation at all.

Last edited by Waven; 2011-01-22 at 07:55.
Waven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 06:44   Link #2065
KLGChaos
The Shermain
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 35
For me, it's the risk vs reward at a certain time in a persons life. The reason there's an age for drinking is because when you're older, you're more able to handle the responsibility than when you're a kid. Heck, even driving a car, you have to be 15-16 in the States.

You may be taught how to use a condom, but as effective as they are, they aren't 100% and there's a lot of people who are stupid enough, especially teens, who don't use them. Plus, if the worse should happen, a 14 year old getting accidentally knocked up is much worse than an 18-19 year old who's already graduated from high school, has a degree and is able to actually support a child. And I'm actually wondering if Yuki and Tooru used protection or if she just got lucky.

But Waven is right-- it's just a different world view and how we were raised, combined with people's own circumstances. As I've said, I've seen enough teen pregnancy to be wary.
__________________
KLGChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 08:28   Link #2066
Darknemo2000
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lithuania
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Darknemo2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
For me, it's the risk vs reward at a certain time in a persons life. The reason there's an age for drinking is because when you're older, you're more able to handle the responsibility than when you're a kid. Heck, even driving a car, you have to be 15-16 in the States.

You may be taught how to use a condom, but as effective as they are, they aren't 100% and there's a lot of people who are stupid enough, especially teens, who don't use them. Plus, if the worse should happen, a 14 year old getting accidentally knocked up is much worse than an 18-19 year old who's already graduated from high school, has a degree and is able to actually support a child. And I'm actually wondering if Yuki and Tooru used protection or if she just got lucky.

But Waven is right-- it's just a different world view and how we were raised, combined with people's own circumstances. As I've said, I've seen enough teen pregnancy to be wary.
Yeah it strikes hoome with me as in my class in 11th grade one girl got knocked up. She really had a tough time and it took her a while to get on two feet again as she didnt finish school.

There is a difference in preganncy in 14-16 year old than 18-19, it still can mess a bit, but at school the demage is certainly much, much higher than after you finish it and get degree.
Darknemo2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 09:04   Link #2067
Xaturas
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
Yuki should have pull the "If you love me than you should wait till I'm ready, if not than it's over between us since you obviously wanted my body instead of actually loving me" card. That's one way that women often test man if there only after there bodies (hit it and quit it) or actually love them enough to wait till there ready. She also could have said that if they do actually end up doing it wont be in the School of all places because she's not going to cheapen herself like that.
Wanted to say that but You were faster than me. All she needed to say is for him to wait, but she didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waven View Post
It's no secret that the average American person is rather conservative when it comes to sexual outspokenness and sex in general compared to common European "standards" , you don't need numbers for that. I don't mean to derogate this conservatism, however, any serious psychologist will confirm that repressing sexuality just makes what it actually tries to achieve worse in the end.

What I really wanted to get at, even though my first paragraph might not support that (), is that this is an old debate on principles that has already been pursued several times even here on AS. Not saying you should stop arguing about it but don't expect to change the other side's view

Back on topic: Putting all the blame on Yuki's shoulders is just plain ridiculous. It's not like she questioned their relationship to get into his pants. She also didn't set up a camera and showed it to others out of sheer group pressure or greed for money.
To put it blatantly, this notion is sexist as f*** .
It's true Yuki did a mistake here, no doubt, but that doesn't mean she is to blame for the general situation at all.
Maybe touru and his friends are more guilty, but no way in hell yuki is as pure as you people make here. She is making herself a drama queen who is pure as a white fluffy bunny who was hit with a stick. Girls mature emotionally faster, seems that yuki was retarded in that aspect, to not coldly analyze the situation.
For me yuki has 50% fault same goes for touru, I pull out the friends from the equation atm, as they didn't put touru stick in yuki ... It was all yuki/touru doings, what friends say is what friends say, if someone is retarded enough to not say no then its their fault.

Anyway I'm out from this discussion as all of you people will defend yuki like she is some fluffy hurt thing, for me she is just an idiot who makes herself *oh so hurt*. People had worse things done to them in their life and I didn't see them react as stupid as her.
Xaturas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 09:49   Link #2068
No Comment
A Comment
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Earth
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to No Comment
But it seems to me that she pretty much just acts withdrawn and defensive towards romantic relationships. Which given her age and the circumstances is probably understandable. And I don't really see how that equates to a drama queen anyway.
__________________
Spoiler:
No Comment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 11:46   Link #2069
n0c0ntr0l
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
For me, it's the risk vs reward at a certain time in a persons life. The reason there's an age for drinking is because when you're older, you're more able to handle the responsibility than when you're a kid. Heck, even driving a car, you have to be 15-16 in the States.

You may be taught how to use a condom, but as effective as they are, they aren't 100% and there's a lot of people who are stupid enough, especially teens, who don't use them. Plus, if the worse should happen, a 14 year old getting accidentally knocked up is much worse than an 18-19 year old who's already graduated from high school, has a degree and is able to actually support a child. And I'm actually wondering if Yuki and Tooru used protection or if she just got lucky.

But Waven is right-- it's just a different world view and how we were raised, combined with people's own circumstances. As I've said, I've seen enough teen pregnancy to be wary.
You see its tales like this that really annoy me. A condom that doesn't break is 100% effective. But condoms break (thats why the lube has spermicide inside it). A woman taking the pill is 99.9% effective as long as she doesn't skip any (thats the true number, when they start forgetting the odd pill it messes it up). If any girl gets pregnant when she was on the pill go back and check whether she just pulled the goalie out of the goal, because women like to do that when they get baby fever and then claim its that the pill isn't 100% effective. Also is the condom breaks, it makes sense to get the morning after pill ASAP, which is when it is also 90% effective. All in all, if you take the right precautions it is EXTREMELY hard to get pregnant if you handle everything properly. And teens are capable of handling it properly. (Well aside from in countries where they don't teach you such things like the USA in the Bush era).


and for mr stat disbeliever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage...obal_incidence

That table is from a measure of pregnant women or moms between 13 - 19 / 1000 13 - 19 women
n0c0ntr0l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 12:23   Link #2070
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
I'm already into my 20s and I can honestly say I'm as conservative as guys come. I'm the one who waits for marriage before engaging in any untoward intercourse, and that's held true up to now. Even with this stance, however, I really can't judge Yuki. She wanted to prove his love for Touru even if she didn't want to do it, and then she got burned by him so horribly. Even if it really wasn't his fault, the fact that he coerced her to do it directs my hate on him, and not on Yuki. I'm sure that things will eventually be cleared up between him and Yuki and I think I'm spot on that the last obstacle to their relationship is Yuki's past - which is what we've seen now. I don't think we'll end up with the protagonists being alone in the end, primarily because Utsumi is stupid enough and loving enough to be stubborn, and Yuki actually sees who Utsumi really is. She just can't let go of her past, and I don't expect her to so soon. I don't think she's a whore, however. I actually think Shou was more of an idiot than Yuki, especially because Yuki did not dupe Utsumi the way Shou did, even if unconsciously.

I mean I may initially revile Yuki, but if I got to know the circumstances I would certainly root for her and Utsumi ending up together, even with her reservations. She was very helpful to Utsumi, although wounded by her past and thus unwilling to trust. It's actually like The Town in this sense.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 12:40   Link #2071
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
One has to admit that Yuki is one psychologically scarred girl. It would be naive to say that love heals all wounds, and being together with someone who truly loves her (Utsumi) isn't going to magically make her problems go away. This goes beyond being healed just by being with him. To really BE with him, she's got a ton of demons she has to face, one of which is learning to forgive herself and, maybe, even Tohru.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 13:50   Link #2072
KLGChaos
The Shermain
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
You see its tales like this that really annoy me. A condom that doesn't break is 100% effective. But condoms break (thats why the lube has spermicide inside it). A woman taking the pill is 99.9% effective as long as she doesn't skip any (thats the true number, when they start forgetting the odd pill it messes it up). If any girl gets pregnant when she was on the pill go back and check whether she just pulled the goalie out of the goal, because women like to do that when they get baby fever and then claim its that the pill isn't 100% effective. Also is the condom breaks, it makes sense to get the morning after pill ASAP, which is when it is also 90% effective. All in all, if you take the right precautions it is EXTREMELY hard to get pregnant if you handle everything properly. And teens are capable of handling it properly. (Well aside from in countries where they don't teach you such things like the USA in the Bush era).


and for mr stat disbeliever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage...obal_incidence

That table is from a measure of pregnant women or moms between 13 - 19 / 1000 13 - 19 women
I never said condoms weren't effective, but because they do break, it's not 100%, which was the only point I was trying to make. And despite Bush's idiotic 100% Abstinence classes (one of his worst ideas--along with his stupid No Child Left Behind law, which doesn't even allow leeway for the mentally challenged), we are given sex education in most public schools. I learned about condoms and the proper use in both 8th and 9th grade health class. Most schools you find will teach people about them.

However, being taught how to use them doesn't mean you're going to be responsible enough to use them. Some will, obviously, others won't.

And in the case of pregnancy, it's not just your own life you could be ruining, but the life of the child that you have to raise with no income, no diploma much of the time. Not only that, it puts a drain on taxes because many young mothers need welfare (and consequently end up not getting off of it). And if you notice, I had no problems with Suzuka and Yamato doing it and having a baby. Why? Because they were a bit older and able to take responsibility for that child's life. A 14-15 year can't do that and it usually ends up in abortion (a horrible thing unless the mother's life is in danger) or giving the kid away for adoption. As I mentioned, we have age restrictions on things because we want to make sure people are responsible and young teenagers usually aren't. There's a reason why they have high car insurance and aren't allowed to drink.

Again, different society, different culture, different ways of looking at things...
__________________

Last edited by KLGChaos; 2011-01-22 at 22:29.
KLGChaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 14:40   Link #2073
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
You can't be serious. I started having sex at 14, I've got no kids, no dieases not even any scares. It's ridiculous to ask people to wait till marriage these days because unlike back in biblical times, we don't all get married at 14 and 16.
I said teenager, not marriage. Although I will abstain until I am married (and not for religious reasons), I can't argue about those who are out of high school.

I wish I was able to chime in sooner, lol.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 15:15   Link #2074
paradox13
zzz
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to paradox13
Quote:
Girls mature emotionally faster, seems that yuki as retarded in that aspect, to not coldly analyze the situation.
you are quite a cold person..I can tell you have never been betrayed before? Or maybe you do not get attached to other people so even if you get fucked you do not care. Or maybe you are the one who does the back stabbing?

Noone said Yuki wasn't stupid. The whole point here is that yes, she probably made a mistake, but she is the victim here. Girls are generally more emotional than guys (there are biological reasons for that), and if they get betrayed and used like that, their reaction would be in line with Yuki's,..its not really that surprising.

I don't see how she is to blame at all. She was operating under the assumption that Touru loved her, which obviously wasn't true as he was lying to her. She made an error in judging his character, but that is an intellectual defect not a moral one. Touro and his friends are the ones who should be blamed for moral failings.
__________________
Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.
paradox13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 15:32   Link #2075
Xaturas
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
you are quite a cold person..I can tell you have never been betrayed before? Or maybe you do not get attached to other people so even if you get fucked you do not care. Or maybe you are the one who does the back stabbing?

Noone said Yuki wasn't stupid. The whole point here is that yes, she probably made a mistake, but she is the victim here. Girls are generally more emotional than guys (there are biological reasons for that), and if they get betrayed and used like that, their reaction would be in line with Yuki's,..its not really that surprising.

I don't see how she is to blame at all. She was operating under the assumption that Touru loved her, which obviously wasn't true as he was lying to her. She made an error in judging his character, but that is an intellectual defect not a moral one. Touro and his friends are the ones who should be blamed for moral failings.
In 1 panel she says to him that they are only junior students and question their relationship with the "did you ask me to go out with you only for that".
Then he just goes the ".. i love you ..."
next panel (forgetting the scenery panels) she already spread her legs.
Makes me giggle at how stupid she is, but hey its me being my cold self who analyze any situation with a common sense and brain.
Xaturas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 16:18   Link #2076
jzmagic
flargansbog
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
In 1 panel she says to him that they are only junior students and question their relationship with the "did you ask me to go out with you only for that".
Then he just goes the ".. i love you ..."
next panel (forgetting the scenery panels) she already spread her legs.
Makes me giggle at how stupid she is, but hey its me being my cold self who analyze any situation with a common sense and brain.
Don't forget Touru is a "pretty boy". I'm sure there was some part of Yuki that wanted to do it.
jzmagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 16:37   Link #2077
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmagic View Post
Don't forget Touru is a "pretty boy". I'm sure there was some part of Yuki that wanted to do it.
Of course there was a part of her that wanted to do it. Having sex with the person you love, that's how he guilted her into doing it. The part that wants to make love to the person she loves won out and the part that said to wait for a proper time and place went "I told you so" when it was all over.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 17:30   Link #2078
n0c0ntr0l
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
In 1 panel she says to him that they are only junior students and question their relationship with the "did you ask me to go out with you only for that".
Then he just goes the ".. i love you ..."
next panel (forgetting the scenery panels) she already spread her legs.
Makes me giggle at how stupid she is, but hey its me being my cold self who analyze any situation with a common sense and brain.
Hey if you're in love it usually also means to want to drag the person you love into a private place and get into some sweaty love making. She was moaning at the time so obviously she enjoyed it (suprising for a first time I thin, never been with a virgin myself... thank goodness)
n0c0ntr0l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 17:55   Link #2079
frubam
singing heartbreak
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to frubam
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
She was moaning at the time so obviously she enjoyed it (suprising for a first time I thin, never been with a virgin myself... thank goodness)
Huh!? In what chapter do they show her moaning? Certainly not chp 66.
frubam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-01-22, 19:33   Link #2080
TCman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Well, I guess the problem began in chapter 49 at around page 14, where Touru said something (in a flashback) to Yuki like "Do you see me as a man?". Then it's probably that Touru wanted to prove that he's a man, not for Yuki alone, but also towards the guys at school. In the manga there's no certainty that Touru knew about the camera and that the guys were recording it or not. But in my opinion it doesn't even matter, since that bet with the guys whether he can seduce Yuki to do naughty things together is already something that can not be tolerated between true lovers. So how much money (in Yen) is Yuki's trust and love worth? Probably not much in the eyes of Touru.

I don't know what Touru was thinking at the time, but something like "girls are replaceable, but mates/friends are not" perhaps? Otherwise you wouldn't do this kind of thing, Touru was backstabbing Yuki by doing such stupid thing to her, while she had given her trust by doing things that true lovers would do, making love with eachother. Also how Touru asked Yuki, it's almost blackmailing her in the fashion like: "if you are are not doing it with me now, then you do not love me" and mixing with some sweet words like "I love you more than anyone else" and add "isn't it natural wanting to do it (i.e. making love)" to make sure Yuki would felt guilty if she's not doing it. Touru didn't do anything to support Yuki after that "incident", even after he said that he loves her more than anyone else. Then Touru is a big fat liar!

And the boys who had set up this trap for Yuki, they were the worst, in a country like Japan you just don't joke around with these kind of things such as "stealing the virginity of a girl, taped it, spread it around at school and said "we won". Even here in the west in countries such as the USA or UK it's not normal to do things like that. Is Yuki really that stupid or is she really in love with Touru who had abused her trust to let her step on a trap which the boys had made? Why can't Yuki trust her own boyfriend who she had dated for 3 months - or was the boys' trap a 3 months worth of work (so Touru never liked Yuki to begin with!?)?
TCman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
being good sucks, drama, kento boss, romance, shoukento, shounen, slice of life, yukiumi

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.