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Old 2011-01-22, 04:15   Link #21641
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Just because Fictional Battler doesn't know anything only means that Yasu thinks or expects that Battler doesn't remember.
I just wanted to bring this up as an aside. Now that we are outright told that the Author Theory is true, and that EP3-6 were written by Tooya/Battler, I imagine that this was his way of working out the memories contained in his brain.

Ok, so... We should look back at the story this way:

For example, someone mentioned, how did Yasu know that Battler was born from Kyrie? It was somewhat mentioned in EP1 that Rudolf had something weighing on his conscience about Battler and Kyrie. If Yasu wrote this knowing the full details, then...? Not to mention EP4 was clearly written with this knowledge... so how did Battler know? (Now that one is more easily answered.)


But, technically, these are not the right questions. It's not a question, "How did Yasu or Battler know?" but an answer: "Yasu/Battler knows. Therefore Rudolf most likely told them."

We should go back and look at EP1-4, or even 5 and 6 this way.


Remember when I was talking about the Core Truth; i.e. the background information that the author must possess in order to write an Umineko story. Things like, Kinzo was already dead, Kyrie gave birth to Battler, Beatrice-2 fell off a cliff...

This concerns Yasu and Battler. The two must know the event to write them. If there is only one path for them to be supplied with the knowledge, then it *must* have passed through that path.

For example, in EP1 and 2, the siblings argue, especially about the position their finances or their companies are in. It was said that Krauss did background checks on them. Now, this conversation was written by Yasu, but involved events that occurred off the island. If Krauss did the background check but did not tell Yasu... then how could Yasu know about these things to write them? Therefore, only two things could have happened. Yasu did her own background check. Somehow? Or, she had Krauss do the background check for her (or he did it and for some reason told Yasu in great detail). This seems more the likely scenario given Krauss seems to be the one written of as having all the connections. So this leads you to realize Krauss may know some if not a lot of Yasu's plan already. And earlier, same with Rudolf. (Maybe why they are murdered so often.)

Basically we can push 100% on the Author theory now... if Yasu wrote something she could not observe herself easily, then she MUST have been informed by someone else. This goes the same with Battler in EP3-6.


... and... this led me to have very, very suspicious thoughts about Battler. He seems to know too much. Granted he could've picked this up from EP1-2... but... I remember there was something odd about EP3-4 where he began supplying his own new information... if I can only remember what it was...

It occurs to me that Battler-Prime may have been much, much more involved in the family than Yasu gave him credit for.
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Old 2011-01-22, 05:28   Link #21642
TheForsaken
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After finishing EP8, I was keeping thinking about one thing. At first Ange’s determined to find the truth, she said she would accept it no matter how harsh it is. She had already prepared herself for the worst case, that maybe Rudolf and Kyrie were the culprit. But in the end she's still crushed by it. Why? To Ange, what can be worse than the fact her parents are murderers?

That's why I think Battler is the culprit. The following is my theory.

If you ask me why and how he did it, the answer is I don't know, and we'll never know. Almost everything was written by Battler and he's never portrayed himself as a murderer. "Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn’t kill anyone. This can be said of all games." That's it, Battler/Character is always the good guy in the novels Battler/Writer wrote.

When he’s living in Ikuko’s house, he knew about Rokkenjima. He felt that there’s a connection between him and that incident. That’s why he tried to solve the mystery, hoping that he’ll regain his lost memory by doing it, and he wrote those novels in the process. That’s what the games are, they describe Battler’s journey to find his past. Those novels, those games reflect his mind and by analyzing them we can know his progress.

EP1 and EP2 are different from the rest. They are the only games where the murders followed the epitaph properly and everyone died in the end. It’s because these two were not written by Battler.

EP3 is Battler’s first novel, and it’s based on reality, i.e the fact that Eva survived the incident. Just like Ange and everyone else, Battler suspected that she was the culprit. He wrote the novel with that thought in mind, that’s why in this novel the hints and clues pointing to Eva are so many.

In EP4, the murders were poorly prepared compared to the previous games, there’s absolutely no closed room. It’s a sign that Battler began to regain his memory. He remembered that the killing in reality was very chaotic, it didn’t follow the epitaph at all like what was described in those two bottles.

One more thing is in EP4, we’re told about Battler’s sin. While it was deemed so important in EP4, it seemed to be forgotten in the next novels. I think the sin itself is unimportant, the fact that it’s mentioned in EP4 is important. As I said above, the story reflects Battler’s mind. The fact that the sin was heavily emphasized in EP4 means that Battler’s obsessed by an idea of “a sin in the past” when writing it. So at this point, he realized that he had done something very terrible but he couldn’t recall what it was.

In EP5, Battler began to doubt. For the first time, he asked whether it’s him who killed everyone, and Virgillia comforted him with the Red Truth above. In reality, it’s Battler comforting himself. But in the end of EP5, he remembered everything, i.e reached the truth. He learned that he was the culprit, that’s why he wanted to create more illusion, he wanted to hide the truth forever.

EP6 is infamous for one thing, the Logic Error. In reality, it means that Battler wrote an illogical story. What? He did fine before he knew the truth, and he screwed up after knowing it? The answer is simple: The truth made him panicked, he tried so hard to hide it, that’s why he made mistakes. One important detail in the story was changed: Battler/Character, who always survived to the end now died in the first Twilight. Isn’t this what he’s trying to say: Battler was killed so he couldn’t be the culprit?

I think EP7 was mainly written by Ikuko. It showed her theory, and her conclusion that Rudolf and Kyrie were the culprits.

EP8 is Battler’s final effort to hide the truth. It’s about how he’s trying to prevent Eva’s diary from being publicized, and in the end he managed to persuade Ikuko.
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Old 2011-01-22, 05:52   Link #21643
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I don't think Ange was ever prepared for the truth. From the beginning, she was searching for a truth she liked. She wanted someone to blame.

In addition, even after she read the truth, by the time Bern tells her in Red that her whole family died, she said she still had hopes someone from her immediate family may have been able to return to her.

She always wanted a truth that would satisfy her, and that's what she went for at the end.
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Old 2011-01-22, 06:41   Link #21644
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hey. i've read this thread here and there several times over the past year. I was wondering if I'm the last to realize that Will's statements from Ep7 means that Maria is blind and that is why she "sees" beatrice, even though beatrice is just a made up person. So did I miss the bus on that one?
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Old 2011-01-22, 14:32   Link #21645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
That's why I think Battler is the culprit. The following is my theory.

If you ask me why and how he did it, the answer is I don't know, and we'll never know. Almost everything was written by Battler and he's never portrayed himself as a murderer. "Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn’t kill anyone. This can be said of all games." That's it, Battler/Character is always the good guy in the novels Battler/Writer wrote.
For your theory to function, two things would have to be proven that I just don't see that way:

a) The whole meta-world would have to be within the narrative that is published as books in the 1998 world, which it is not in my theory, because especially the scenes involving Ange and everything concerning the effects on 1998 wouldn't make much sense...especially considering that Hachijô Tôya/Ex-Battler had no contact with Ange post-tragedy up to the point where he met her in the ???? during Episode 8.

b) The whole red truth would be fictional and therefore useless, rendering a whole part of the narrative virtually useless both for us and the characters. I just refuse to assume that Ryukishi would be that lame...
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Old 2011-01-22, 14:45   Link #21646
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
In EP5, Battler began to doubt. For the first time, he asked whether it’s him who killed everyone, and Virgillia comforted him with the Red Truth above. In reality, it’s Battler comforting himself. But in the end of EP5, he remembered everything, i.e reached the truth. He learned that he was the culprit, that’s why he wanted to create more illusion, he wanted to hide the truth forever.
So basically the Red Truth is completely and utterly meaningless. That's awesome.

Quote:
hey. i've read this thread here and there several times over the past year. I was wondering if I'm the last to realize that Will's statements from Ep7 means that Maria is blind and that is why she "sees" beatrice, even though beatrice is just a made up person. So did I miss the bus on that one?
Maria's not blind, that doesn't even make sense. Her deal is that she determines who people are by their personality, not their appearance. What with her belief in magic, it's no big deal for her to imagine that Beatrice or whoever is possessing bodies.
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Old 2011-01-22, 18:36   Link #21647
bruticus0
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So basically the Red Truth is completely and utterly meaningless. That's awesome.



Maria's not blind, that doesn't even make sense. Her deal is that she determines who people are by their personality, not their appearance. What with her belief in magic, it's no big deal for her to imagine that Beatrice or whoever is possessing bodies.
# “First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. Three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl.”
# “Illusions to illusions. …Illusions are the blind girl’s song. Illusion of a closed room.”

It makes a lot of sense actually. Maria is never witness to a death. Read over some of the story with this is mind and see if anything clicks.
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Old 2011-01-22, 18:42   Link #21648
Jan-Poo
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Maria was facing the wall, that's what Will meant to say. Maria isn't blind.

How the hell she was able to see the magic circle Hideyoshi has drawn in EP1 if she was blind?
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Old 2011-01-22, 19:30   Link #21649
Mikachiru
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How the hell she was able to see the magic circle Hideyoshi has drawn in EP1 if she was blind?
She didn't. She used her amazing smelling skillz. And Hideyoshi wrote it? O.o;
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Old 2011-01-22, 19:45   Link #21650
AuraTwilight
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Remember, Hideyoshi was like "It looked something like this" and drew a poor representation, then Maria mocked him and drew a better version.

But yea, Maria's blind. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense since she keeps invoking her use of vision, such as freaking out when she sees that the shrine isn't there, or asking Beatrice to draw pictures of her bunny girls or Sakutarou, or whatever.

People are just totally stumbling over the fact that Will is using metaphor.
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Old 2011-01-22, 21:25   Link #21651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
For example, in EP1 and 2, the siblings argue, especially about the position their finances or their companies are in. It was said that Krauss did background checks on them. Now, this conversation was written by Yasu, but involved events that occurred off the island. If Krauss did the background check but did not tell Yasu... then how could Yasu know about these things to write them? Therefore, only two things could have happened. Yasu did her own background check. Somehow? Or, she had Krauss do the background check for her (or he did it and for some reason told Yasu in great detail). This seems more the likely scenario given Krauss seems to be the one written of as having all the connections. So this leads you to realize Krauss may know some if not a lot of Yasu's plan already. And earlier, same with Rudolf. (Maybe why they are murdered so often.)
How about this:
1) Krauss probably would have kept records of his background check in his study.
2) Yasu has a key to his study.
Oh and:
3) The background check might have turned up the information that Battler was Kyrie's son.
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Old 2011-01-22, 22:51   Link #21652
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So basically the Red Truth is completely and utterly meaningless. That's awesome.
but we can still go around it like battler is a accomplice.


anyways,i reread the ep2 and notice something,beatrice implies that she and kyrie meet in the past and she told kyrie that she have what rudolf needs.
i have a question,do you consider this a hint or something?
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Old 2011-01-23, 00:41   Link #21653
Kirroha
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Any thoughts that the reason Yasu planned to kill everyone was because she believed that everyone has sinned somehow that had led to this day?

Natsuhi tossing her off the cliff.
Rosa abusing Maria, accidentally got BeatriceII off the cliff.
Rudolf's Asumu/Kyrie thing.
Battler's sin.
George hiding the letter.
Jessica being a hormonal teenage girl.
Genji making Yasu work with the Ushiromiyas in the first place.
Kinzo.
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:10   Link #21654
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... Being a hormonal teenage girl is a sin? lol XD

hormoneshormoneseverywhere.jpeg

What about Gohda? Or Kumasawa? Or Eva, other than being a bitch (luv u, eva-tan)? And what about Ange, if she attended the conference like she was supposed to?
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:15   Link #21655
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EDIT: Jessica for being a hormonal teenage girl and thus pushing for Kanon's existence, causing Yasu to snap even further.

Krauss and Eva's sibling fight shortened Kinzo's lifespan and made him hate his own kids, which is why he made one with Beatrice.

Gohda for just being horrible to Shkanon, and using Maria's rose in his dinner.

Kumasawa - same reason as Genji.

Ange can be left out because if we go by that argument, then what if Battler never attended the conference? Yasu only started plotting when she realized that Battler was coming, which is also when she probably realized that Ange wasn't.
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Old 2011-01-23, 02:08   Link #21656
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All of this is countered, however, by Yasu not being a holier-than-thou bitch and expressing significant empathy and love for most of the characters when not doing the Witch act, and is insistent on being martyred as the villain for everything that happened, even stuff that is objectively and beyond a doubt not her fault. That is completely incongruent with the idea that Yasu is a mass murderer who thinks everyone deserves to die.
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Old 2011-01-23, 04:56   Link #21657
TheForsaken
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So basically the Red Truth is completely and utterly meaningless. That's awesome.
You didn't read my post? I said that "Battler didn't kill anyone in any game" mean "Battler is not the culprit in any novel Battler wrote".
Reality is not a game, so there's no conflict.


I do think Red Truth is fictional, it's just applied to the content in the novel. Otherwise we'll have to accept that the crimes in reality follow Knox and Dine's rules as well (a lot of them were stated in Red).
And why do you make theory about Yasu is the culprit while Will already said "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!"?
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Old 2011-01-23, 06:52   Link #21658
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And why do you make theory about Yasu is the culprit while Will already said "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!"?
It could be worked around. At the time the murder happened, Yasu is technically no longer a servant. She's the true owner of ten tons of gold and is regarded by some people as the true head of the family.

But still I cannot think that Yasu would kill them all out of spite, or all the characterasion that we read is a big fat lie...She's not normal to say the least, and I understand she may not like Gohda or Natsuhi...but it is not shown that she hold deep hatred to everyone of the family members. You need big resolution to plan to kill 16 people.

At worse, now everything we know is just fictional, and maybe all of them are not real at all. Does Beatrice Castiglioni really exist or just some weird fan-theory in-universe? Does anything happen as it is showed? If not, what is the point to read all of it?

Ahhhh, just thinking about it gives me a headache

Anyways, since when did Umineko follow Knox or Dine rules, even in the novel?

All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.


I belived that red text is also regarded as "supernatural" in the context of the story that Yasu/Batter/Ikuko/whoever wrote, isn't it not?
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Old 2011-01-23, 09:08   Link #21659
Jan-Poo
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It could be worked around. At the time the murder happened, Yasu is technically no longer a servant. She's the true owner of ten tons of gold and is regarded by some people as the true head of the family.
It's not like "it could be worked around", it works, period.

the servant Shannon and Kanon are furnitures, that means they are fake existences, they are cover up identities.

The true person behind them isn't a servant at all, the true person behind them is the true head of the Ushiromiya family, quite the opposite of a servant.
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Old 2011-01-23, 09:57   Link #21660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
You didn't read my post? I said that "Battler didn't kill anyone in any game" mean "Battler is not the culprit in any novel Battler wrote".
Reality is not a game, so there's no conflict.
Yes, but what you said would fictionalize the Red truth and really make it meaningless for the process of finding the truth.
In the End of EP8 it was made quite clear that the Red truth is the objective truth and while the way it is verbalized can be toyed around with (like Battler is dead) it is made clear several times that you cannot say things that aren't true on an objective level...
If it were the other way around then fictional Battler should have been able to say that he was Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

And again I can only ask how you would logically explain the meta-world as a part of Battler's narratives?!
It is clearly stated that until several years after 1998 (and I would say it was at least 15-20 years later), Ushiromiya Ange and Hachijô Tôya never met. Then how was "Battler" able to insert the struggle of Ange (as Gretel in EP4, as Ange in the 1998 plotline and as Ange in EP6-8) in his narrative?
At least the metaworlds of EP4 and 8 are hardly explainable as a part of the fiction written by Hachijô Tôya unless you say that the whole 1998 plot is fictional as well.
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