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Old 2011-01-21, 07:52   Link #41
Kanon
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After hearing Kyubey say Madoka has the potential to become the most powerful magical girl he's ever met, my speculah is that Madoka is the witch Homora was fighting in the dream/future vision. She will cause the apocalypse.
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Old 2011-01-21, 08:41   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
After hearing Kyubey say Madoka has the potential to become the most powerful magical girl he's ever met, my speculah is that Madoka is the witch Homora was fighting in the dream/future vision. She will cause the apocalypse.
I'd be careful about this vision - it could very well be an illusion created by evil mastermind Kyubey. It would be deliciously fiendish to foil Homura's wish (to keep Madoka out of the MG meat grinder) by feeding Madoka the lie that she could actually HELP Homura by becoming a Magical Girl - while there is actually nothing that Homura would wish for LESS.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:10   Link #43
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Actually there are speculations that indicate that the witch in EP1's dream could instead be Sayaka (as there are similarities between the witch appearance/outfit and Sayaka's magical girl costume).
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:15   Link #44
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I've seen this speculation, and the visual evidence to support it would rank a little bit below "extremely far-fetched" imho.
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Old 2011-01-21, 12:18   Link #45
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Yeah, I agree with you.

Still, it wouldn't be too weird if they'd turn out to be true, especially if we follow the reasoning of Witch = former MG.
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Old 2011-01-21, 14:44   Link #46
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Putting together a few theories I've seen here and in episode threads:
  1. Homura traveled through time.
  2. Homura, knowing how strong the witch was, warned Mami that it was too strong for her.
  3. Despite this, she was truly shocked that Mami was killed.
Leads me to believe Sayaka might be the true divergence in time.
  1. Kyubei only spoke to Madoka when he was being attacked by Homura, yet he still "chose" both Sayaka and Madoka. This wasn't until after Sayaka had arrived on the scene and protected both Madoka and Kyubei.
  2. Sayaka was the reason she and Madoka were near the grief seed in episode 3 in the first place. Without her being there, it's possible that Homura alone would've found the seed, or Madoka may have stepped up to protect Mami at the first sign of danger without her "shield" being there to "protect" her.
Only thing missing is proof that she wasn't a key figure in the "original" timeline, but we don't really know much about that to begin with.
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Old 2011-01-21, 15:38   Link #47
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I don't see any credible proof of any time travel. Would like to see some evidence for this.
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Old 2011-01-21, 16:57   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I don't see any credible proof of any time travel. Would like to see some evidence for this.
There are no concrete evidence yet, just small hints.
  1. Homura knew the layout of the school despite being a transfer student.
  2. She knew Madoka, as well as what her duties were.
  3. She told Madoka not to become someone else, or she'll lose everything. It wasn't a threat. It was a warning. She already knows what will happen if Madoka becomes a magical girl.
  4. What GDB said above. She knew Charlotte would be stronger than regular witches. And it's not like she could have sensed it, since the egg hadn't even fully activated.

That's about it for now, I think.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:08   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
There are no concrete evidence yet, just small hints.
  1. Homura knew the layout of the school despite being a transfer student.
  2. She knew Madoka, as well as what her duties were.
  3. She told Madoka not to become someone else, or she'll lose everything. It wasn't a threat. It was a warning. She already knows what will happen if Madoka becomes a magical girl.
  4. What GDB said above. She knew Charlotte would be stronger than regular witches. And it's not like she could have sensed it, since the egg hadn't even fully activated.

That's about it for now, I think.
World reset due to a wish could explain all that without resorting to time travel.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:15   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
World reset due to a wish could explain all that without resorting to time travel.
It's essentially the same thing for the one who remembers it, provided the age difference isn't that wide.
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Old 2011-01-21, 17:26   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
There are no concrete evidence yet, just small hints.
Okay, that's fine with me. It's certainly a valid theory, but I got the impression that it was used as a near-certainty, and IMHO that would be way premature.

Quote:
  1. Homura knew the layout of the school despite being a transfer student.
  2. She knew Madoka, as well as what her duties were.
  3. She told Madoka not to become someone else, or she'll lose everything. It wasn't a threat. It was a warning. She already knows what will happen if Madoka becomes a magical girl.
  4. What GDB said above. She knew Charlotte would be stronger than regular witches. And it's not like she could have sensed it, since the egg hadn't even fully activated.

That's about it for now, I think.
I'm an enemy of time loops and world resets ... I simply consider them poor writing. So I'm hoping that Urobuchi Gen has a better explanation in store.

All bits listed are still consistent with my current main theory that Homura merely "un-MGed" Madoka. Let's collect some more puzzle pieces, I'd say ^_^;
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Old 2011-01-21, 19:41   Link #52
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Alternative idea that involves a bit of a twist on a time loop (dependent on the first witch being Sayaka... regardless of the picture, I've thought from the start that it could easily have been Madoka or Sayaka anyway): the first scene occurs at a point in the future; in this timeline Madoka never becomes a mahoshojo, while Sayaka does and eventually becomes a witch. (Note that there's no indication that Madoka doesn't know who these people are in that scene, so you could pretty much picture it happening way later.) During the battle between Homura and witch Sayaka, Madoka finally contracts with Kyubey and wishes for a second chance.

You get the apparent world reset we see, but... the other timeline actually continues to exist in parallel to the first one (there's no way that a time reset can be a "free wish" as a result of clock rewinding, after all), and this was exactly what Kyubey wanted, because Madoka eventually becomes the most powerful witch ever to exist. Near the end of the series, Kyubey pulls witch Madoka in from the parallel world and things get incredibly bad.

As for proof, no, it's just a thought. I think it would be a way to write in a confrontation between Madoka and witch Madoka, though, because Kyubey's hint about Madoka's power seems to point to Madoka becoming a witch as his eventual plan. It'd be interesting if it had actually already happened and Kyubey was just waiting for this timeline to catch up to the other one so he could bring witch Madoka in, regardless of what happened in the current world.

It also offers a partial explanation to Madoka and older(?) Madoka featuring together in the OP.
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Old 2011-01-21, 23:37   Link #53
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I think there is more to this struggle of magical girl to witches than this system. What I am afraid of however is that this anime totally skip any explanation towards the circumstances that ushered the creation of this system of magical girl. This is what I meant for Mephistopheles' gamble with God. We may reasonably speculate that Kyubey has a stake in the forming of new contracts, but even what exactly he receives in compensation, and of course, his relationship with witches, remain unclear.

About to what relationship Homura may have with Madoka, I am more optimistic in receiving a clarification in the course of the broadcast. As such, I think a need to speculate this matter is not pressing.

About Mami and her exact relationship with Kyubey, I feel only about 50-50 in seeing this addressed. Her relevance in the course of the story may well be over at this point...
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Old 2011-01-22, 06:31   Link #54
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I found an interesting pic speculating the death order.

Spoiler for SUPER SPOILER if it is true:

Last edited by svld; 2011-01-22 at 06:52.
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Old 2011-01-22, 11:07   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svld View Post
I found an interesting pic speculating the death order.

Spoiler for SUPER SPOILER if it is true:
Himori? If SHAFT has the episode length to develop everything they want to than I can see her gradually finding out that her slowly distant friends are mixed up in some real trouble, but she has to work her way back into relevancy with the plot first before her death has an impact.
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“Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom” and “Superman vs. the Elite”

(Mostly accurate dialogue, but with a little editing to make it mesh better.)
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Old 2011-01-22, 11:22   Link #56
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Well, that graph we can take as gently mockery to the reputation of Uroboshi Gen.

During the discussion that I have had regarding Madoka, I started to wonder whether or not if slaying the witches really have the effects intended as per Kyubey, or that it really is more like the act of slaying a demigod in Shadow of Colossus... for that I start to wonder if the Witches are actually essential in this world, and the act of denying the dark emotions of humanity from claiming its victims is in itself a crime.

I still have no answer about what is the wager of Mephistopheles Kyubey with God unfortunately. All that I know is that, and disturbing as it is, is that rose pedals is cited in the act V of Faust part 2...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Act V
The Choir of Angels


Blossoms, of joyfulness,
Flames, of true happiness,
Love, they radiate,
Bliss, they now create,
As the heart may.
Words that are truest,
Air of the clearest,
Gathering round us
Eternal day!
...


MEPHISTOPHELES


You scorn us, the spirits of the damned, 11780
Yet you’re of the true Sorcerers’ brand:
You lead both man and wife astray. –
What wretched luck, and dire!
Is this Love’s own element?
My whole body’s bathed in fire, 11785
I scarcely feel, my head’s so burnt. –
You float to and fro, sink down a while,
Move your sweet limbs with earthly guile:
True, a grave expression suits you well,
But I’d still like to see you smile a little! 11790
That would be an eternal delight to me.
Like the lovers’ mutual glance, you see:
A simper round the mouth, is how it’s done,
You, the tall lad, you could make me love you,
The priest’s pose doesn’t really suit you, 11795
So show a little lust, and look hereon!
You could be more modestly naked too,
That robe’s long hem, so demure in its rising –
They turn away – and seen from the rear view –
Those rascals now are really appetising! 11800


The rose pedals suddenly take a different context. I now wonder that of Gertrud quite a bit. What comes immediately to my mind is whether if... Kyubey Mephistopheles will even receive his fair due for his labor? To what might he be enticed with? Is it Madoka's enormous potential? Would he ever fall so mesmerized by a temptation?
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Old 2011-01-22, 19:58   Link #57
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Okay, I've really been thinking about this, and I believe I have a pretty good idea of what Madoka's wish will be.

Think back to the dream she had in the first episode. I think the dream is foreshadowing what will happen later in the series, and that this is when Madoka will make her wish. And that wish is to somehow change her destiny.

Imagine, she is lost in a witch's world, Mami and (possibly) Sayaka and the rest of her loved ones are out of the picture, and she sees her final living ally in this mess, Homura, falling in battle. Of course she would make a wish to "change her destiny", as Kyuubey suggests in that scene. How she will actually change her destiny and what will lead up to that point is a mystery for now, but that's what I believe is going to happen in the long run.
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Old 2011-01-22, 21:59   Link #58
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Recently, I'm beginning to entertain this really really wild theory: what if this "game" about magical girls vs witches is just a means to an end...

Remember how Kyuubey initially called out specifically to Madoka? how he's now basically nesting on her shoulders and living at her place? how much he seems to long for her supposed unimaginable power? What if what kyuubey really wants is Madoka's power itself?

Remember what he said in that dream?: "you have the capacity to change fate. This unavoidable destruction, this sorrow, you can change it all. That's why you have this power."

At first I thought he was talking about a wish, but it doesn't seem to be the case because he begins his speech with "kimi nara", which literally means "if it's you". So he means that because it's her, fate can be changed, which implies that rather than a wish, it's a power specifically of hers what he's going about. The last sentence reinforce this: "that's why you have this power."

But, don't you guys think this a bit weird? I mean, Kyuubey doesn't seem to be talking about quantity of power; changing what can not be changed, avoiding what is unavoidable... It's almost as if he were talking about the power of... God.... or a power that rivals that of God's.

I know, it's really crazy, but then I remember a line from the ending theme, Magia, that says: "I want to see you, smiling with the power to destroy even God..." Then I remember that Faust is actually about a bet between Mephisto and God, and I also remember that in the new ending Madoka ends up trapped in the eye of what it seems to be Mephisto.

Yeah, it's really crazy, just a wild theory, but think about it at least. The core of it is not so farfetched: what if this thing about magical girls and witches is just a means to get Madoka's power (whatever it is)? That would change the whole thing...
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Old 2011-01-23, 00:39   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yeah, it's really crazy, just a wild theory, but think about it at least. The core of it is not so farfetched: what if this thing about magical girls and witches is just a mean to get Madoka's power (whatever it is)? That would change the whole thing...
If Madoka does have a special power that would rival even that of God then I believe it wouldn't be specific to her. First, we don't know how long the magical girl vs. witches game has been going on: long enough for Mami and Homura to go through some serious magical girl training, though. There were probably many more magical girls trained before Madoka was even born. Secondly, if they wanted Madoka's power, why didn't they seek her out right away? Madoka and Homura are the same age: it's obvious that Homura was put into training when she was very young. Why not do the same thing for Madoka?

If Madoka's power is something that's sought after it's probably a power passed down generation to generation: constantly, witches and magical girls fighting over this godly ability, which manifests itself in one person. However, I don't think I'd be happy with that explaination. Magical Madoka is setting itself up to be an incredibly confusing and intricate story: a plot that boils down to good vs. evil would be, well, a little disappointing.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the game is all about. I can't even speculate wildly like I normally do because we just haven't been given enough information. What do we know?
  • Magical girls and witches are fighting each other constantly
  • Witches cause events like suicides and traffic accidents, magical girls work to stop these things
  • A magical girl must make a wish she would risk her life for to create a contract
  • It is unclear when or where these wishes come true
  • Magical girls enter into contracts with a contractor to gain powers, it is unclear how witches form
  • In these contracts a soul gem forms
  • A witch produces a grief seed which has unknown (but apparently positive) effects on the magical girl's soul gem
  • Both soul gem and grief seed hold the magical girl and witch's power
  • Magical girls and witches are involved in some sort of 'game'

The only thing I can guess at this point is that, as I believe has been stated before by many other people, witches and magical girls form the same way. Isn't it lucky that a grief seed just so happen to match perfectly with a soul gem? I don't think it's too far fetched to assume that witches are fallen magical girls, or those that have been transformed by some other means. I mean, just look at the name: grief seed. The source of grief. A magical girl would turn into a witch if something affects her very core: her soul gem, which I believe is a manifestation of the wish a girl makes upon contract.

The wish makes up the core of the contract: no wish, no contract. A soul gem, like wise, makes up the core of a magical girl's powers: no soul gem, no magic. I believe protecting and making one's soul gem stronger is key to granting the wish: you'll have to work hard, certainly, but your wish will be granted by magic (that is, if you don't die first). Perhaps a grief seed forms when a magical girl becomes over whelmed by negative emotions: something shakes her to her very core and she stops believing in her wish, thus the soul gem is contaminated. The only way to get rid of contamination in a magical girl's soul gem is to transfer it to the grief seed: unfortunately, the grief seed can only be used so many times, probably dependent on the witch's power.
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:01   Link #60
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I don't intent to defend this because it's too early and we know too little. I posted this just for people to think about one more possibility. As of now, anything is still possible.

That been said, I want to answer at least this question:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Genten View Post
If Madoka does have a special power that would rival even that of God then I believe it wouldn't be specific to her. First, we don't know how long the magical girl vs. witches game has been going on: long enough for Mami and Homura to go through some serious magical girl training, though. There were probably many more magical girls trained before Madoka was even born. Secondly, if they wanted Madoka's power, why didn't they seek her out right away? Madoka and Homura are the same age: it's obvious that Homura was put into training when she was very young. Why not do the same thing for Madoka?
Why do you think Kyuubey wasn't already looking for her. In my "scenario", the game itself is a quest to find the girl with this special power as well as a means to get it.

Think of it this way. You have this (evil) Morpheo, who is looking for "the one". He sets this demonic game where people with potential to be the one fight monsters or each other. After many years, and many failed candidates, he finally finds it. The one girl who possess the power he's looking for.

So, it wouldn't be that he didn't seek her out right away; he always have been looking for her. It just took this long to find her.

But like I said, just food for thought.
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