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Old 2011-01-22, 20:13   Link #2081
Rainrir
Tin Can
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Huh!? In what chapter do they show her moaning? Certainly not chp 66.
This was in the taunt by JERKFACE at Yuki. Apparently, the tlfor imangascans translated it differently from how I translated it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
In 1 panel she says to him that they are only junior students and question their relationship with the "did you ask me to go out with you only for that".
Then he just goes the ".. i love you ..."
next panel (forgetting the scenery panels) she already spread her legs.
Makes me giggle at how stupid she is, but hey its me being my cold self who analyze any situation with a common sense and brain.
To give Yuki some credit, she has been resisting him for sometime already. It is obvious from the dialogue that this is not the first time Tooru raised this issue. In any case, she does love Tooru, even if she didn't really want the sex, she wants to make Tooru happy.
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Old 2011-01-22, 21:06   Link #2082
Joachim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCman View Post
Well, I guess the problem began in chapter 49 at around page 14, where Touru said something (in a flashback) to Yuki like "Do you see me as a man?". Then it's probably that Touru wanted to prove that he's a man, not for Yuki alone, but also towards the guys at school. In the manga there's no certainty that Touru knew about the camera and that the guys were recording it or not. But in my opinion it doesn't even matter, since that bet with the guys whether he can seduce Yuki to do naughty things together is already something that can not be tolerated between true lovers. So how much money (in Yen) is Yuki's trust and love worth? Probably not much in the eyes of Touru.

I don't know what Touru was thinking at the time, but something like "girls are replaceable, but mates/friends are not" perhaps? Otherwise you wouldn't do this kind of thing, Touru was backstabbing Yuki by doing such stupid thing to her, while she had given her trust by doing things that true lovers would do, making love with eachother. Also how Touru asked Yuki, it's almost blackmailing her in the fashion like: "if you are are not doing it with me now, then you do not love me" and mixing with some sweet words like "I love you more than anyone else" and add "isn't it natural wanting to do it (i.e. making love)" to make sure Yuki would felt guilty if she's not doing it. Touru didn't do anything to support Yuki after that "incident", even after he said that he loves her more than anyone else. Then Touru is a big fat liar!

And the boys who had set up this trap for Yuki, they were the worst, in a country like Japan you just don't joke around with these kind of things such as "stealing the virginity of a girl, taped it, spread it around at school and said "we won". Even here in the west in countries such as the USA or UK it's not normal to do things like that. Is Yuki really that stupid or is she really in love with Touru who had abused her trust to let her step on a trap which the boys had made? Why can't Yuki trust her own boyfriend who she had dated for 3 months - or was the boys' trap a 3 months worth of work (so Touru never liked Yuki to begin with!?)?
The missing logic in this "tooru is innocent guy" is, where the hell did he go when yuki was under emotional stress of that incident? even Yuki stated that tooru didnt even look for her after that. I know that might be another cliched where tooru was trying his best to look for her but her parents didnt allow him blablabla, but really? even the most retarded person can do something to talk to the girl that is closing herself (cmon wailing infront of her house 24/7 will makes her notice right?, why cant tooru do that if he really felt responsible? that can only mean he isnt trying hard enough (again still "maybe").

and about tooru didnt know the camera? doing it in gym shack and not knowing there is a camera there ? sorry i dont buy it.

But i gotta admit, i didnt feel any rage knowing yuki isnt a virgin, the author did a good job delivering her character that she didnt feel like an easy girl, more like a victim that turns into drama queen, and i gotta give a thumbs up to the author because he/she(sorry i dont really know whether sasuga kei is a male or female) dare to use not-virgin heroine in his/her manga, knowing the otaku's reaction over in japan towards non-virgin heroine.

I myself is on the "that tooru, i hope utsumi gonna wreck him soo bad for all that his done" bandwagon now, rather than "yuki is a sl*t, cheap heroine, go for another one ho-yay", if this story isnt written better, i might be joining the later, thank god this isnt kimi no iru no machi (saying that i am still in eba's wagon :P)

Waiting anxiously to whatever drama will unfolds in the following chapters.
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Old 2011-01-22, 22:39   Link #2083
paradox13
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Quote:
next panel (forgetting the scenery panels) she already spread her legs.
I never disputed the fact that she wanted to do it.

Wanting to have sex with the person you love isn't a sin.

Takin gadvantage of a person you say you love on the other hand...well you tell me whether or not you think thats immoral.
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Old 2011-01-22, 23:30   Link #2084
Xaturas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
I never disputed the fact that she wanted to do it.

Wanting to have sex with the person you love isn't a sin.

Takin gadvantage of a person you say you love on the other hand...well you tell me whether or not you think thats immoral.
Who knows if touru was only after the money and her pants, then its not immoral, that just business, it was her fault that she got burned.
However if touru was framed/blamed and is innocent (more than 50% atm based on how mangas usually work out) then I say he is even more retarded than common shounen lead (and common shounen leads are already in a retard class of its own).
Anyway to end this talk, I don't give a ... about what her motives and her moral standards/inteligence were. Don't even care if she's virgin or not, its normal these days for girls do to it <15y old. I'm more interested in utsumi and other girls and how will they make this relationship drama goes on, as this past story will fix itself out. Imo utsumi should just hug this drama queen and maybe say one or two bittersweet words and it would be fixed, but no he chickened out.
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Old 2011-01-22, 23:35   Link #2085
paradox13
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Quote:
Who knows if touru was only after the money and her pants, then its not immoral, that just business, it was her fault that she got burned.
How the hell is using a person for money not immoral?

I've studied quite a few schools of morality in my time (all 19 years of it) and I believe that practically no philosopher of any reknown would agree that it is moral to use someone for money.
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Old 2011-01-23, 00:03   Link #2086
Mughi
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I'm still not convinced that Touru had a bet going on the side at all. I think that the evil kids in their class egged Touru on to have sex with Yuki and suggested the location as a "safe place" where neither kid's parents would ever find out. Then some of these kids held him back at the front gate of the school (or somewhere) the next day while the rest looked at the tape in class, specifically so that they could push it in Yuki's face in front of the class, while CLAIMING that Touru had a bet with them.

If I were a betting man, speaking of bets, I'd wager the Mangaka is going to spring on us that Touru was driven solely by pride and hormones. He wanted to have sex with his childhood pal to an extent now that they were "going out", but more than anything, his vanity was threatened by the kids in the class who wanted to take a pretty boy down a few pegs.

It may turn out that both Touru and Yuki's parents are people of means, and the utter lack of decorum and idiotic loss of judgement cause both families to mitigate the damage to their house names and agree to sequester and separate the pair for good. That would explain WHY Yuki never saw Touru again and why, now that he's older and has some freedom to move about, he seemed so desperate to talk to Yuki.

This story isn't into it's final arc yet folks... it's just gearing up!
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Old 2011-01-23, 00:21   Link #2087
ZODDGUTS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
I'm still not convinced that Touru had a bet going on the side at all. I think that the evil kids in their class egged Touru on to have sex with Yuki and suggested the location as a "safe place" where neither kid's parents would ever find out. Then some of these kids held him back at the front gate of the school (or somewhere) the next day while the rest looked at the tape in class, specifically so that they could push it in Yuki's face in front of the class, while CLAIMING that Touru had a bet with them.

If I were a betting man, speaking of bets, I'd wager the Mangaka is going to spring on us that Touru was driven solely by pride and hormones. He wanted to have sex with his childhood pal to an extent now that they were "going out", but more than anything, his vanity was threatened by the kids in the class who wanted to take a pretty boy down a few pegs.

It may turn out that both Touru and Yuki's parents are people of means, and the utter lack of decorum and idiotic loss of judgement cause both families to mitigate the damage to their house names and agree to sequester and separate the pair for good. That would explain WHY Yuki never saw Touru again and why, now that he's older and has some freedom to move about, he seemed so desperate to talk to Yuki.

This story isn't into it's final arc yet folks... it's just gearing up!
^ Same thought as well. The final arc will likely be when Yuki is likely already with Utsumi or at least starting to date him, who she has has accepted as someone to trust. But then she finally ends up meeting with Touru by accident, with him explaining that he never betrayed her in the first place, no bet was going nor did he know about the camera being their, just that he was stupidly trick into the situation. Now knowing the truth, drama ensues with her having conflicted feelings as to who she wants to be with.
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Old 2011-01-23, 00:43   Link #2088
Shadow5YA
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With how cheerful Tooru looked, it seems like he doesn't feel too guilty about the incident. I wonder if he even knows how badly Yuki was affected by it. It's as if Yuki just abruptly left and had Tooru had no idea it was his fault.

I have a feeling that Tooru will be a very easily influenced, dense character, where he did care for Yuki, but he was peer pressured into thinking a sex tape would be a good idea. He will be victimized in some way just so whatever good will he has will be salvaged. That way, he would keep his spot as Utsumi's rival in love after he makes amends with Yuki.
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:03   Link #2089
Mughi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS View Post
^ Same thought as well. The final arc will likely be when Yuki is likely already with Utsumi or at least starting to date him, who she has has accepted as someone to trust. But then she finally ends up meeting with Touru by accident, with him explaining that he never betrayed her in the first place, no bet was going nor did he know about the camera being their, just that he was stupidly trick into the situation. Now knowing the truth, drama ensues with her having conflicted feelings as to who she wants to be with.
I agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I think it will be the other way around. I think Touru will show up VERY soon, once it's been established that Utsumi can't figure out how to face Yuki, then there will be a drawn out face-off between both guys for Yuki's affections as she tries to sort out her feelings. I believe she'll go back to Touru first and then need to be swayed back to Utsumi.
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:16   Link #2090
n0c0ntr0l
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Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
I agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I think it will be the other way around. I think Touru will show up VERY soon, once it's been established that Utsumi can't figure out how to face Yuki, then there will be a drawn out face-off between both guys for Yuki's affections as she tries to sort out her feelings. I believe she'll go back to Touru first and then need to be swayed back to Utsumi.
I'm willing to bet a heafty sum that Touru knew about the bet and proceeded. Here is my reasoning:

A. If he is totally innocent it devalues everything Yuki went through and the level of rage that would be generated would be unprecidented.

B. If he was innocent, he would have gone to look for yuki when he found out. NOTHING would have stopped him, he would have screamed blue bloody murder even if everyone else tried to keep him away from her if he really did love her.

C. Noone is stupid enough to take advice from friends as to precisely when and where to go do their girlfriend because it's highly obvious that they are going to come and watch.

D. How the hell would the guys KNOW the exact time he would be there. It's nearly impossible. There are faaaaar too many coincidences that would be required for Touru to be innocent. Sure if this was KNIM I would say yeah, it is possible. But this is GE, and it's unlikely.


This being said, I don't think it was his plan for it to be videoed. But the fact that he never came looking for Yuki speaks volumes. If he was innocent he would be trying to clear his names at ALL costs.
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:41   Link #2091
jzmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
I'm willing to bet a heafty sum that Touru knew about the bet and proceeded. Here is my reasoning:

A. If he is totally innocent it devalues everything Yuki went through and the level of rage that would be generated would be unprecidented.

B. If he was innocent, he would have gone to look for yuki when he found out. NOTHING would have stopped him, he would have screamed blue bloody murder even if everyone else tried to keep him away from her if he really did love her.

C. Noone is stupid enough to take advice from friends as to precisely when and where to go do their girlfriend because it's highly obvious that they are going to come and watch.

D. How the hell would the guys KNOW the exact time he would be there. It's nearly impossible. There are faaaaar too many coincidences that would be required for Touru to be innocent. Sure if this was KNIM I would say yeah, it is possible. But this is GE, and it's unlikely.


This being said, I don't think it was his plan for it to be videoed. But the fact that he never came looking for Yuki speaks volumes. If he was innocent he would be trying to clear his names at ALL costs.
He's not 100% innocent, but he's not 100% guilty either. He's obviously responsible for what happened, but I'm sure there's more to the story. We don't know if he tried to go see Yuki. It could be that he was denied by her parents. I mean wouldn't you do the same if you were them? And even if he wasn't denied, it could just be that he didn't know what to say to Yuki about the situation, since he feels responsible for what happened but not completely. And then he never got the chance before she left.
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Old 2011-01-23, 02:01   Link #2092
Joachim
et tu, brute?
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
I'm willing to bet a heafty sum that Touru knew about the bet and proceeded. Here is my reasoning:

A. If he is totally innocent it devalues everything Yuki went through and the level of rage that would be generated would be unprecidented.

B. If he was innocent, he would have gone to look for yuki when he found out. NOTHING would have stopped him, he would have screamed blue bloody murder even if everyone else tried to keep him away from her if he really did love her.

C. Noone is stupid enough to take advice from friends as to precisely when and where to go do their girlfriend because it's highly obvious that they are going to come and watch.

D. How the hell would the guys KNOW the exact time he would be there. It's nearly impossible. There are faaaaar too many coincidences that would be required for Touru to be innocent. Sure if this was KNIM I would say yeah, it is possible. But this is GE, and it's unlikely.


This being said, I don't think it was his plan for it to be videoed. But the fact that he never came looking for Yuki speaks volumes. If he was innocent he would be trying to clear his names at ALL costs.
my thoughts exactly, but there is a high possibility that he will use the "i am innocent / forgive me" cards later when they finally meet up to sway yuki back to him. And ohh boy i sure cant wait to see utsumi's reaction when yuki and tooru meets up, insecure boy insecure boy everywhere! (i would overreact if i found out the girl that i chase meet up with her ex boyfriend who leave such a memories to her)

man i just love utsumi's reaction, i can connect with him in some ways, although his response in the latest chapter was kinda "wimpy" for some guys, but seriously if you were in his shoes, you lied if you dont feel nothing after that revealation.

Now praying utsumi doesnt grief and gets emo for 10 chapters , hopefully not good ending has been an enjoyable ride so far
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Old 2011-01-23, 09:39   Link #2093
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
This was in the taunt by JERKFACE at Yuki. Apparently, the tlfor imangascans translated it differently from how I translated it.
I don't know exactly 'how' you translated it(or how n0 saw it tl'ed)but it would be natural to moan if it was your first time. Unless they said "Heh, you were really moaning in PLEASURE weren't you?", I don't think it can constitute as her as enjoying or getting into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
A. If he is totally innocent it devalues everything Yuki went through and the level of rage that would be generated would be unprecidented.

C. Noone is stupid enough to take advice from friends as to precisely when and where to go do their girlfriend because it's highly obvious that they are going to come and watch.

D. How the hell would the guys KNOW the exact time he would be there. It's nearly impossible. There are faaaaar too many coincidences that would be required for Touru to be innocent. Sure if this was KNIM I would say yeah, it is possible. But this is GE, and it's unlikely.
A. If he is guilty, then there wouldn't be much of a confrontation with Utsumi. He would simply be the bastard that betrayed Yuki and he would have no chance with her. The story would end with Utsumi opening up Yuki's heart or whatever. It's hard to believe Tooru's situation would be that disadvantageous if he's to become a difficult future obstacle for Utsumi.

C/D. These guys are still in junior high. If these guys really were his "friends"(or if Tooru thought they were his "friends"), you would never expect them to set up a camera and record you. This is especially true with younger people, who are easier to peer-pressure/convince and whose notion of "friendship" is rather simple in comparison to how, say, an adult in his/her mid/late 20s. So if your "friends" say "You know, on Wed at 6pm, classroom X is empty because clubs don't practice. You could do whatever you want in there, heh.", the last thing you would think would be that you are being set up or recorded with some secret camera(assuming it WAS a secret and someone wasn't following them and recorded it somehow). Maybe if you were some shy introvert, you'd be skeptical, but not if you are a more outgoing person with many friends, like Tooru is presented to be.
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:12   Link #2094
Zetsubo
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Question: Was Toru that broke that he couldn't afford to take Yuki to a nice little Onsen hideaway or even a love hotel ?

Or was he just dumb ?

This is their first time having sex, so why not make the scenery and memory great ?

Why not have true privacy and room to be truly intimate ?

He grew up with Yuki. She was a virgin. Had he no respect for that let alone understood the significance ?

Was he that desperate the get laid and prove his manhood, that he would have first sex in a dirty high school gym shed ?

When a woman or young girl is in love, they will do whatever the man says in many instances. It is not that they cannot help it. It is that they do not want to help it. They want to please the Man/Boy they are in love with.

A woman puts her blind trust in the man she loves almost in the same way that a child puts blind trust in Mother. She expects to be taken care of safely and properly.

I do not have any issue with what and how Yuki did what she did.

I do have an issue with Toru, choosing a dirty gym store room.

It shows weakness.

Weakness that Yuki wanted to test Utsumi on... "How far would he go to gain Shou's heart ?"
Weakness that Yuki found in Toru, that left her exposed and badly hurt... however, seeing Utsmu, on the floor, bowing and begging her not to tell anyone he was "peeping" gave her hope.

"Maybe there are men, who would go to extremes to protect the woman he cared about, and would atually "SACRIFICE" some part of his manly pride for her sake.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:32   Link #2095
Mughi
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I don't know exactly 'how' you translated it(or how n0 saw it tl'ed)but it would be natural to moan if it was your first time. Unless they said "Heh, you were really moaning in PLEASURE weren't you?", I don't think it can constitute as her as enjoying or getting into it.



A. If he is guilty, then there wouldn't be much of a confrontation with Utsumi. He would simply be the bastard that betrayed Yuki and he would have no chance with her. The story would end with Utsumi opening up Yuki's heart or whatever. It's hard to believe Tooru's situation would be that disadvantageous if he's to become a difficult future obstacle for Utsumi.

C/D. These guys are still in junior high. If these guys really were his "friends"(or if Tooru thought they were his "friends"), you would never expect them to set up a camera and record you. This is especially true with younger people, who are easier to peer-pressure/convince and whose notion of "friendship" is rather simple in comparison to how, say, an adult in his/her mid/late 20s. So if your "friends" say "You know, on Wed at 6pm, classroom X is empty because clubs don't practice. You could do whatever you want in there, heh.", the last thing you would think would be that you are being set up or recorded with some secret camera(assuming it WAS a secret and someone wasn't following them and recorded it somehow). Maybe if you were some shy introvert, you'd be skeptical, but not if you are a more outgoing person with many friends, like Tooru is presented to be.
I agree We would never have seen that scene with Touru desperately looking for Yuki if we weren't being set up for a "Yuki I'm sorry, I was set up!" Situation later on. I've been waiting for this other shoe to drop for quite awhile. Touru has been made out to be the ultimate evil from every angle except one. We know he's looking for Yuki for some reason...
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:46   Link #2096
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
We know he's looking for Yuki for some reason...
How about im sorry for discussing and betting on our, what should be private, sex life ?

Im sorry for not being man enough to avoid the baiting ?

Im sorry for not loosing a little (macho / male pride )face for your sake and our future ?
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:46   Link #2097
Mughi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Question: Was Toru that broke that he couldn't afford to take Yuki to a nice little Onsen hideaway or even a love hotel ?

Or was he just dumb ?

This is their first time having sex, so why not make the scenery and memory great ?

Why not have true privacy and room to be truly intimate ?

He grew up with Yuki. She was a virgin. Had he no respect for that let alone understood the significance ?

Was he that desperate the get laid and prove his manhood, that he would have first sex in a dirty high school gym shed ?

When a woman or young girl is in love, they will do whatever the man says in many instances. It is not that they cannot help it. It is that they do not want to help it. They want to please the Man/Boy they are in love with.

A woman puts her blind trust in the man she loves almost in the same way that a child puts blind trust in Mother. She expects to be taken care of safely and properly.

I do not have any issue with what and how Yuki did what she did.

I do have an issue with Toru, choosing a dirty gym store room.

It shows weakness.

Weakness that Yuki wanted to test Utsumi on... "How far would he go to gain Shou's heart ?"
Weakness that Yuki found in Toru, that left her exposed and badly hurt... however, seeing Utsmu, on the floor, bowing and begging her not to tell anyone he was "peeping" gave her hope.

"Maybe there are men, who would go to extremes to protect the woman he cared about, and would atually "SACRIFICE" some part of his manly pride for her sake.

Just some thoughts.
Then there is the reality of how kids treat sex:

Little ditty about jack and diane
Two american kids growin up in the heartland
Jackies gonna be a football star
Diane debutante backseat of jackies car

Suckin on chilli dogs outside the tastee freeze
Diane sittin on jackies lap
Hes got his hands between her knees
Jackie say, hey diane lets run off
Behind a shady tree
Dribble off those bobby brooks
Let me do what I please


Happens everywhere, all the time, all over the world and these two children treated it no differently.
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:48   Link #2098
Mughi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
How about im sorry for discussing and betting on our, what should be private, sex life ?

Im sorry for not being man enough to avoid the baiting ?

Im sorry for not loosing a little (macho / male pride )face for your sake and our future ?
And the point is? Either way its a setup for Touru and Yuki to get back together and create new tension between Yuki and Utsumi before they can achieve a "Good Ending".
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:50   Link #2099
aliasxn
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The author can have it both ways. Tooru doesn't have to be innocent, he just has to convince them he is innocent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
How about im sorry for discussing and betting on our, what should be private, sex life ?

Im sorry for not being man enough to avoid the baiting ?

Im sorry for not loosing a little (macho / male pride )face for your sake and our future ?
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:51   Link #2100
Somnus
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So I came back to read the latest chapter since I saw a message saying it was finally time for Yuki's past to be revealed. To be honest, I wasn't surprised at any of the details since it was guessed at forever ago, but the one thing I hated about this manga still hasn't changed to this day.

Utsumi. Needs. A. Backbone.

My god he's pathetic. This would most likely be one of my top rated mangas if he wasn't so weak. The guy needs to take notes from Toru in Iris Zero. Now THAT is an interesting male lead. Hell, he's even aware of his feminine side (those who've read the latest side stories will understand this, and it's hilarious to boot). Then again...maybe that's why Iris Zero is becoming one of my favourites?

Last edited by Somnus; 2011-01-23 at 10:53. Reason: Edited to emphasize my opinion
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being good sucks, drama, kento boss, romance, shoukento, shounen, slice of life, yukiumi

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