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Old 2011-01-23, 01:42   Link #61
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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man, i really like these sensible theories you people are sharing. although it's causing me to ponder hard already despite the ep. still going on its 4th. and LOL,yes,madoka is THE CHOSEN ONE! XD

btw though, if homura's trying to atleast warn or stop madoka from being an MS,why don't she just tell her and not go around with those riddles of hers. tch,now i'm wanting the next ep. asap!!

PS: DAMN YOU GEN FOR MAKING ME QUITE ADDICTED TO THIS!! XD
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Old 2011-01-23, 01:59   Link #62
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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
LOL,yes,madoka is THE CHOSEN ONE! XD
lol I did say it was a really really crazy theory

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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
btw though, if homura's trying to atleast warn or stop madoka from being an MS,why don't she just tell her and not go around with those riddles of hers. tch,now i'm wanting the next ep. asap!!
Maybe she has to follow some kinda rules. Who knows, we need more clues!!!! And that reminds me, I'm still trying to figure out what's the deal with the black cat in the opening... any ideas??
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Old 2011-01-23, 02:22   Link #63
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Quote:
I'm still trying to figure out what's the deal with the black cat in the opening... any ideas??
Spoiler for Optimism:
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Old 2011-01-23, 02:57   Link #64
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lol I did say it was a really really crazy theory



Maybe she has to follow some kinda rules. Who knows, we need more clues!!!! And that reminds me, I'm still trying to figure out what's the deal with the black cat in the opening... any ideas??
i don't think it to be a farfetched theory.XD i think it does make sense too. btw,the cat is prolly nothing at all.or the last boss.L0L. but hmmm...
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Old 2011-01-23, 07:42   Link #65
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Just food for thought:

- Gem becomes dim with time/usage?
- Grief Seed is needed to clean up gem.
- When last witch would be exterminated... yeah, right, no more grief seeds.
- Which means gems WILL become dark.

And as things go most likely result of gem becoming dark... can this game really end?
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Old 2011-01-23, 08:48   Link #66
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I remembered smth when kyubey is asking madoka if she has thought of a wish at somepoint he/she/it asks if it only power that she wants?
He said that he/she/it can't suggest wishes but he/she/it indirectly does!
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Old 2011-01-23, 09:34   Link #67
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I hope it's true, since Madoka seems happy with the cat in the opening.

I felt surprised and pain at the same time, I thought she gets swallowed as a whole, but after the falling headless body (from the Puella Magi mode into normal mode, then falls) gets chased by the witch and chewed. Later on the chewed headless body falls from the exploded witch, while her cup falls broken with the Grieve Seed.

The twist in this story after the episode, Madoka won't turn into a Puella Magi until the final three episodes of this series. Sayaka won't use her wish for Mami and keeps convincing Madoka to use her wish for Mami, but Madoka is too scared of the consequence after she saw Mami gets killed. Madoka is in a pinch and Homura (from the parallel world, pleas don't tell she's acting like Rika, who has the recollection of memories from the previous worlds she failed to stop Madoka from turning into a Puella Magi) is not on time to save Madoka, so Sayaka immediately make a contract with cunning Kyuubei (Kyuubey) as for her wish to heal her friend. Sayaka slaps Madoka and she walks away. Kyuubei (Kyuubey) still insisting/convincing Madoka to become a Puella Magi. Mami won't return no more for this world unless the plot has World Reset (Higurashi), Time Travel (Dragon Ball: Future Trunks), or Parallel World (Asura Cryin')
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:09   Link #68
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Why do you think Kyuubey wasn't already looking for her. In my "scenario", the game itself is a quest to find the girl with this special power as well as a means to get it.

Think of it this way. You have this (evil) Morpheo, who is looking for "the one". He sets this demonic game where people with potential to be the one fight monsters or each other. After many years, and many failed candidates, he finally finds it. The one girl who possess the power he's looking for.

So, it wouldn't be that he didn't seek her out right away; he always have been looking for her. It just took this long to find her.

But like I said, just food for thought.
The only problem with that is that Kyubey would have no need for other magical girls, except one to convince her to join the game. He would only have called out to Madoka, not Sayaka as well. It wouldn't have been strange to Madoka if she were the only one choosen but Sayaka was choosen as well, meaning she has a role to play in this too. And it wouldn't explain why the other girls he trained were alive: if we're going to assume that Homura was trained by Kyubey (which has been strongly hinted at), why is she still kicking instead of rotting in some witch's layer?

Speaking of deaths in witch's layers, what ever happened to Mami's body? It didn't appear when the layer collapsed which is what confuses me. Mami isn't part of the witch, she's a human girl now. I just can't help but wonder what happened to it.

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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
Just food for thought:

- Gem becomes dim with time/usage?
- Grief Seed is needed to clean up gem.
- When last witch would be exterminated... yeah, right, no more grief seeds.
- Which means gems WILL become dark.

And as things go most likely result of gem becoming dark... can this game really end?
I've said earlier, I think the soul gem does become tained with usage and the grief seeds are used to cleanse it. The girls would be forced to kill witches to cleanse their gems least they become witches themselves. The witches would be magical girls who didn't cleanse their gems or become too tained to use anymore. Since there are probably tons of magical girls in the world (and negative emotions) witches will probably never run out although they may be far and few between. I think cleansing your gem depends on how powerful you are: if you can't defeat the witch you either need to run away or die.

The game can't end because there will always be magical girls created by contractors and witches created from magical girls. I'm just puzzled on what the goal of this game is. My mind won't stretch that far XD
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:19   Link #69
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I came up with smth really really weird i mena it it's super weird!
If you use your wish for someone else other than yourself it might be considered a curse and instead become a witch o.0
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Old 2011-01-23, 12:34   Link #70
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I wonder... after having watched episode 3, and seen all the Faust symbolism I came up with some theories:

Spoiler for Random Theories:
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Old 2011-01-23, 14:02   Link #71
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Aww, that'd be adorable. <3
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Old 2011-01-23, 16:15   Link #72
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The only problem with that is that Kyubey would have no need for other magical girls, except one to convince her to join the game. He would only have called out to Madoka, not Sayaka as well. It wouldn't have been strange to Madoka if she were the only one choosen but Sayaka was choosen as well, meaning she has a role to play in this too. And it wouldn't explain why the other girls he trained were alive: if we're going to assume that Homura was trained by Kyubey (which has been strongly hinted at), why is she still kicking instead of rotting in some witch's layer?
Well, my own take on Homura is related to the black cat, but I need more clues, so I won't comment on that.

About a possible reason for needing the other MGs... it could be that he needs the game running to have a reason to contract the girl he's really interested in, and so he would need the battle between MGs and witches to be and on-going thing. Of course, more clues will reveal more possibilities and other theories!
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Old 2011-01-23, 20:08   Link #73
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I can't really speculate, because at this point I'd be grasping at straws and coming up with a number of theories. My gut tells me it's a bit more straightforward, though. However, I do want to comment on one thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Look. This is the spoilers&speculation thread. If you try to forcefully sew your eyes shut to those things that are explicitly NOT commonplace in magical girl animes and take the "all this is perfectly normal in mahou shoujo land", more power to you.
You say this, and then you go:

Quote:
If you were around, I'd bet you my 100 Euro against your 10 that Homura is not going to be an antagonist. She has "best friend to Madoka" plastered all over her.
You can't argue against convention, while attempting to use convention to bolster your argument. Either you believe that everything has a hidden meaning, or you believe that things are standard fare.

What people have stated is pretty common fare for the MG genre; this goes for Madoka having a nice family, to Homura ultimately being a friend to Madoka. And let's be straight here, that Madoka's family isn't 100% sugar sweet; the mother did get drunk, after all, and has some apparent issues with work. If it were a true perfect family from a wish, her mom would be happy with her job and probably wouldn't be drunk.

But yes, I bet we can expect a few more twists, as this show will twist the MG genre; Mami's death, and indeed the way she died, showcase that. Whether a wish can bring someone back to life or not, we should find out next ep.

Lastly, I'll state that the wish system was explained as an equivalent exchange type thing. How else to get young girls with magic power to risk their lives? Not all will be like Madoka.

It feels like there's more going on here, but time will tell.
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Old 2011-01-23, 20:54   Link #74
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To be fair, this anime may be the darkest magical girl anime I've seen (closest competitor would be final season of Sailor Moon).

Madoka has put its distinctive mark on the magical girl genre, to its great credit.

However, I just don't like the implication (intentional or otherwise) that magical girl anime is all sugar and spice and everything nice, and Madoka is totally 100% different from that.

It might be 100% different from that caricature of magical girl anime, but it's not 100% different from something like Nanoha.


In fact, if Homura ends up (i.e. is confirmed as) being a socially awkward protagonist that cares deeply for Madoka, then that makes her an awful lot like Fate Testarossa (and Homura/Madoka would become a relationship very similar to Fate/Nanoha).

It's for this reason that I find Himeji's speculations here intriguing, even if I don't fully agree with them.


If Madoka's creators really want to deconstruct the magical girl anime genre piece by piece, making Homura an arrogant antagonistic figure would help a lot there (it would be quite a twist for people expecting her to be Fate crossed with Hitagi from Bakemonogatari).

Not that I expect that, mind you, but it would be interesting if it did happen.
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Old 2011-01-23, 21:03   Link #75
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I've said earlier, I think the soul gem does become tained with usage and the grief seeds are used to cleanse it. The girls would be forced to kill witches to cleanse their gems least they become witches themselves. The witches would be magical girls who didn't cleanse their gems or become too tained to use anymore. Since there are probably tons of magical girls in the world (and negative emotions) witches will probably never run out although they may be far and few between. I think cleansing your gem depends on how powerful you are: if you can't defeat the witch you either need to run away or die.

The game can't end because there will always be magical girls created by contractors and witches created from magical girls. I'm just puzzled on what the goal of this game is. My mind won't stretch that far XD
It's "slightly" different. You are talking about losing, that sooner or later magical girl loses and become witch (there are most likely more witches from servants than from magical girls anyway), I'm talking about winning as in magical girls succeed in wiping out all witches... but would they win that way? It's one thing that game skewed that one side is losing, it's entirely other that it can't win even if they are 100% successful.
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Old 2011-01-24, 02:19   Link #76
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I want Urobuchi to reveal that Mami's soul is still alive in that meshed-up body, now that would be sick
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Old 2011-01-24, 02:48   Link #77
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I find it hard to trust or condemn a character who has not demonstrated proper motive. Maybe displaying motive in an obvious manner is going to be the death flag for characters, as we saw in Mami's case. In trying to figure out Homura and Kyubey's alignment, I thought I'd start with some observations and go from there. Hopefully they sound neutral to y'all. I'll follow this up with my interpretation.

In Homura's case:
She wanted to prevent contact between Madoka and Kyubey, but stopped pressing the matter after they met.
She wanted to make sure Madoka remembered her message about whether or not she treasured the life she was living.
She intervened after Mami's death before Kyubey contracted with either girl.

In Kyubey's case:
He tries to explain MG'ing to Madoka and Sayaka.
He tries to encourage Madoka to form a contract despite saying he isn't allowed to (see the dream from ep 1 and the sweet talking in ep 3).

Supplemental to Kyubey,
Kyubey's first line about making a MG contract is that he will fulfill "any one of [their] wishes", and he repeats this adding that he can "make miracles happen." He follows this up with the price which is the duty to fight witches.
Mami is the one to caution Madoka and Sayaka against a hasty decision to enter a contract.
Mami and Homura's chat in ep 3 reinforces Mami's line from ep 2 about being irrevocably involved in this magical world when Kyubey has chosen them.


When you look at how Kyubey introduces being a MG to Madoka and Sayaka, he explains the good stuff first and appends it with a short line about fighting witches. It's up to Mami to temper Madoka and Sayaka's excitement despite Mami's own desire to have MGs to partner with. Reading into Kyubey's explanation of where witches and MGs come from (MGs born from wishes, witches born from curses), I think he has the ability to make witches--no middle step--by granting a curse. Since it is explicitly stated how witches are born and since he says this in the same breath as how magical girls are born, this raises a red flag. We have no guarantee that Kyubey or one of his cohorts (if any exist, or a rival even) isn't going around granting curses for people who want naughty things done to other people. If there is a system in place, perhaps he makes MGs until there aren't enough witches, then goes and makes witches until there aren't enough MGs. Considering that MGs seem to be unable to "help people" in the same way that witches can harm them (ie, death), any such system that intentionally generates witches would suggest Kyubey is an immoral existence.

Also, becoming irreversibly involved in the magical world after meeting Kyubey seems to be a rather insufferable fate does it not? Either way, knowing what happens after a Grief Seed is "used up" or what happened to Mami's Soul Gem will probably be a juicy hint. Maybe he just eats those. Little critter looks like a malformed mongoose to me.

As a MG, Homura is already tied into hunting witches regardless of other motivations. If there were no MGs, there would be no force to counter witches who kill/eat people or compel them to suicide or crime. By wanting to prevent new MGs from being born (or maybe only keeping Madoka from becoming a MG), you can derive that Homura either wants to have "less competition" as Mami had suggested or she wants to prevent a wish from being made. Since Homura has shown no issues with killing witches by her own power, I find it hard to argue that she is evil on either point--less competition or preventing a wish with unintended consequences. To reiterate the good point--Homura does not hurt anyone by not allowing new MGs to be born so long as she is strong enough to kill the witches that appear before her, therefore there is no inherent evil in her actions.

Short version for the dyslexic: Kyubey=shady. Homura=nice.

I don't want to go into pasts or futures (or futures that loop to pasts) too much--that's a few too many steps on the game board for me--but those are my thoughts.
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Old 2011-01-24, 03:52   Link #78
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I want Urobuchi to reveal that Mami's soul is still alive in that meshed-up body, now that would be sick
And have her wake up one day with Fuminori-style agnosia.

Come one, who else wants it!

One a more serious note, didn't Kyubey say that if MG's are born from wishes, that Witches are born from curses? Can we take this to mean that the process for creating them is exactly parallel aside from the intent of the wish? If so, the question I pose is: who contracts witches? Is it some rival of Kyubey's or is it Kyubey himself? I think it'd be a pretty interesting turn of events if it turned out he was selling arms to both sides.
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Old 2011-01-24, 04:01   Link #79
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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seriously, from the first episode, i've always thought madoka-homura would turn out like fate-nanoha.. and i'm still crossing my fingers about it. XDD
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Old 2011-01-24, 05:59   Link #80
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I wonder... after having watched episode 3, and seen all the Faust symbolism I came up with some theories:

Spoiler for Random Theories:
What a daring assumption. What I most enjoy is your audacity by suggesting that Faust is actually now betting with the Serpent, mirroring Mephistopheles betting with LORD, yet totally different in circumstance.
The crucial problem that I see here would be that in the various renditions of Faust, it is either that Faust is damned or that Faust is saved at the last moment, without any indication of future development. If we assume that Faust in effect becomes yet another Mephistopheles in order to achieve his own redemption, then under your assumption, Kyubey would only be a servitor to, well, Faust/Mephistopheles. On that Kyubey may very well have been harvesting "as the crop is ripe for the taking", we must wonder then why is it that Kyubey has not Mami's soul gem with him after this episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I find it hard to trust or condemn a character who has not demonstrated proper motive... [snip]

In Kyubey's case:
He tries to explain MG'ing to Madoka and Sayaka.
He tries to encourage Madoka to form a contract despite saying he isn't allowed to (see the dream from ep 1 and the sweet talking in ep 3).

Supplemental to Kyubey,
Kyubey's first line about making a MG contract is that he will fulfill "any one of [their] wishes", and he repeats this adding that he can "make miracles happen." He follows this up with the price which is the duty to fight witches. [snip]

I think he has the ability to make witches--no middle step--by granting a curse. Since it is explicitly stated how witches are born and since he says this in the same breath as how magical girls are born, this raises a red flag. We have no guarantee that Kyubey or one of his cohorts (if any exist, or a rival even) isn't going around granting curses for people who want naughty things done to other people. If there is a system in place, perhaps he makes MGs until there aren't enough witches, then goes and makes witches until there aren't enough MGs. Considering that MGs seem to be unable to "help people" in the same way that witches can harm them (ie, death), any such system that intentionally generates witches would suggest Kyubey is an immoral existence.
On Decagon's post, the part where he raises that Kyubey is an immoral existence as he may simply curse individuals at will and he offers no tangible mean for magical girls to 'help people' in the same capacity that witches can harm them is most interesting to me. What I have to say in reply is that it remains to be seen whether if Kyubey does indeed have such ability to curse individuals, and then we perhaps can assess his role in this system of equilibrium.

In response, I will post out what I have organized in all as the questions that plague me regarding Kyubey. I did not assume the possibility of Faust having such power.


On Kyubey and what he might have wagered with 'GOD' which kickstarted this whole mess... and also on this Madoka show here be Faust:


A. This system has been on-going for some time:
1. Kyubey has been a part since time immaterial.
2. Kyubey only began his involvements at a later stage of this 'game'.
3. The system has already racked up a heap of dead magical girls and witches, with no end to this meat grinder in sight.


B. Assuming that there is a 'GOD' that Kyubey would bet against.
1. Kyubey is subject to the Serpent
a. Does he have the power of attorney to act on behalf of the Serpent?
b. Does he align ambition wise to the interests of the Serpent?

I. If Kyubey's interests ever leave its alignment to that of the Serpent, will he be struck down mercilessly?
c. Is Kyubey in competition with other servitors of the Serpent?
I. If so, what are the other servitors like?
II. What are the acts of Kyubey's competitor(s)?
2. Kyubey is subject to none.
a. Any competitor(s)?

C. Assuming that Kyubey does not really have such an arrangement at all.
1. Kyubey is the creator of this system of equilibrium between witches and magical girls.
a. (See: A)
2. Kyubey is merely an enforcer of a pre-existing system of equilibrium.
a. Kyubey is an arbitor of Ex factis jus oritur.
3. Kyubey is thrusted into this contingency of sorts.
a. The work of unknown perpetrator(s) is the casus belli for this conflict between magical girls and witches.
b. Kyubey is simply responding to events beyond that of his control.


D. What compensation does Kyubey receive for partaking such an enterprise?
1. Proving an ideological argument in his favor regarding humanity.
a. That humanity will succumb to its vices.
b. That humanity is of worth and can see salvation, at a price.
c. Since everything created, In turn deserves to be annihilated (Mephistopheles, Faust, Part I, Scene III)

2. Tangible benefits, be they materialistic or in competitiveness.

E. On the criteria of being able to enter such a bargaining table with 'GOD'
1. Does the consignees of the magical girl contract have any ability to elevate themselves to that of an active stakeholder?
a. Slaying sufficient number of witches would eventually yield such an outcome.
b. Some other means are at work for one to become as Kyubey is.

2. What would be put forth as the betting chips by those that can enter this bargaining table?
3. Can the parties devise a game of their choosing, and not merely that of magical girls vs. witches?
a. Will there be change of scenes, mirroring Goethe's Faust, Part II (Tragedy of Faust), where the participants would travel about before coming full circle?

F. Potential outcomes.
1. Mirroring the various renditions of Faust.
a. The damnation of all magical girls, with Mephistopheles claiming victory?
b. That it ends in an inconclusive fashion, with 'Gretchen' declare saved?
c. 'Faust' finding salvation with a last-minute intervention by the Heavens.
d. Mephistopheles Kyubey is doomed to act as the servant or assistant of the magical girls, bounded by his contracts with them.
e. Status quo antebellum.

2. Gen Urobochi decides to make Faust 2011 'unique'.
a. All must die. Apocalyptic conclusion.
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