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Old 2011-01-23, 10:53   Link #2101
MeoTwister5
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
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"Is it because you don't really love me?"

This is the statement of either complete naivete or purposeful manipulation. In this day and age that's not really something you should even say because it is an unfair appeal to emotion that unfairly puts the one you ask at a practically no-win situation. The mere fact that he used such a question to convince her to do it with him already casts doubt on his true intentions; that anyone who would use such directly meaning proposal to convince someone should at least suggest that that he at least KNOWS the weight of his words and just what kind of outcome a very unfair and downright cunning move . In certain respects I'd think he intended to use such a line on her anyway, which again, casts a shadow on his intentions.

For me, the mere fact that he had to manipulate her by using such a cliched yet effective line that by now everyone knows would have some sort of effect towards getting what you want already casts doubt on the purity of his intentions.
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:55   Link #2102
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
Then there is the reality of how kids treat sex:

Little ditty about jack and diane
Two american kids growin up in the heartland
Jackies gonna be a football star
Diane debutante backseat of jackies car

Suckin on chilli dogs outside the tastee freeze
Diane sittin on jackies lap
Hes got his hands between her knees
Jackie say, hey diane lets run off
Behind a shady tree
Dribble off those bobby brooks
Let me do what I please


Happens everywhere, all the time, all over the world and these two children treated it no differently.
And that is why Eri was introduced.

A kind of foil contrast to Yuki, to show the general and popular attitude toward sex... especially for the first time.

Also that women are under pressure to "get it over with and prove her womanliness" also.

It is like, getting rid of an annoying hangnail.

Thing is, Toru ought to know and feel this since he was with her his whole life, that Yuki was not in a rush. They had TIME

But for the young to concept of time is poorly developed.

In the end, Toru, was the weak link and he allowed the other boys to break him.

Last edited by Zetsubo; 2011-01-23 at 11:12.
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:57   Link #2103
aliasxn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
And the point is? Either way its a setup for Touru and Yuki to get back together and create new tension between Yuki and Utsumi before they can achieve a "Good Ending".
If Yuki fucking buys that then I'm not sure I'd want her be the end girl anymore, how fucking gullible can a person be...
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Old 2011-01-23, 10:59   Link #2104
Nemuru
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Originally Posted by aliasxn View Post
If Yuki fucking buys that then I'm not sure I'd want her be the end girl anymore, how fucking gullible can a person be...
That’s why I'm praying the manga doesn't become a bad fanfic ^^, Yuki confrontation with Shou with regards to Utsumi where Shou ask Yuki to set them two up, at this point Yuki stay true to herself and knew what she wanted so I have faith she won't be gullible.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnus View Post
So I came back to read the latest chapter since I saw a message saying it was finally time for Yuki's past to be revealed. To be honest, I wasn't surprised at any of the details since it was guessed at forever ago, but the one thing I hated about this manga still hasn't changed to this day.

Utsumi. Needs. A. Backbone.

My god he's pathetic. This would most likely be one of my top rated mangas if he wasn't so weak. The guy needs to take notes from Toru in Iris Zero. Now THAT is an interesting male lead. Hell, he's even aware of his feminine side (those who've read the latest side stories will understand this, and it's hilarious to boot). Then again...maybe that's why Iris Zero is becoming one of my favourites?
hmmm... what is wrong with Utsumi characters? even if I re-read everything he hasn't made many mistakes in fact the way he handle shou-senpai problem while being true to his feelings made me give him lots of manly points.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:04   Link #2105
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
"Is it because you don't really love me?"

This is the statement of either complete naivete or purposeful manipulation. In this day and age that's not really something you should even say because it is an unfair appeal to emotion that unfairly puts the one you ask at a practically no-win situation. The mere fact that he used such a question to convince her to do it with him already casts doubt on his true intentions; that anyone who would use such directly meaning proposal to convince someone should at least suggest that that he at least KNOWS the weight of his words and just what kind of outcome a very unfair and downright cunning move . In certain respects I'd think he intended to use such a line on her anyway, which again, casts a shadow on his intentions.

For me, the mere fact that he had to manipulate her by using such a cliched yet effective line that by now everyone knows would have some sort of effect towards getting what you want already casts doubt on the purity of his intentions.
Agreed.

Toru, just wanted to prove himself to "other men"

None of whom were his true friends.

They were individuals full of envy.

If they were, Toru's true friends, they would NEVER have let Yuki know of the bet and video. MORE importantly, they would have never "required" proof or set it up so that they could obtain proof.

The treachery was a 2 layer pyramid. Yuki betrayed by Toru: Toru betrayed by the gang.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:11   Link #2106
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnus View Post
So I came back to read the latest chapter since I saw a message saying it was finally time for Yuki's past to be revealed. To be honest, I wasn't surprised at any of the details since it was guessed at forever ago, but the one thing I hated about this manga still hasn't changed to this day.

Utsumi. Needs. A. Backbone.

My god he's pathetic. This would most likely be one of my top rated mangas if he wasn't so weak. The guy needs to take notes from Toru in Iris Zero. Now THAT is an interesting male lead. Hell, he's even aware of his feminine side (those who've read the latest side stories will understand this, and it's hilarious to boot). Then again...maybe that's why Iris Zero is becoming one of my favourites?
If he had a backbone, then there would be no need for Yuki.
She wouldn't be his "savior" the typical strong female muse.

So out goes the plot

The fun is in watching him grow a backbone... from experience.

They say experience teaches wisdom.

Lots of young guys out their need to read about a "weak male lead" who grows a pair to give them hope.

Anyway, it takes a woman to turn a boy into a man and vice versa.

Right of passage, yada yada yada.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:20   Link #2107
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi
And the point is? Either way its a setup for Touru and Yuki to get back together and create new tension between Yuki and Utsumi before they can achieve a "Good Ending".
Nah.

They wont get back together.

The tension will come from the process of catharsis

For Yuki and toru plot line, the point is about closure.

You cant bring up a characters painful past and not give it adequate treatment. It is just bad story telling.

She has to encounter Toru.

She has to face those demons.

Good story telling demands it.

She ran from her home in shame, to live with her aunt, but in the end, running hardly solves problems.

Notice how Utsum loves to run away ?

Well Yuki isn't really different.

Toru either.

So, where is the closure ?

Where do all the characters gain courage ?

By facing each other and burning away all that painful scar tissue.

The author knows this, also We have to see it.

Good story telling.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:27   Link #2108
TCman
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Well, I don't know but only blaming Yuki for the incident is kind of weird, isn't it? Why couldn't Yuki be more defensive at the time and not letting down her guard at all? But Touru could have stopped the tragedy from happening by withdrawing from the bet with the boys, e.g. because he really loved Yuki (e. g. with "This is going too far, I will never do something that would hurt the girl I trully love, get lost, guys" (in chapter 66 in a flashback he said he loves Yuki more than anyone else). Obviously it has something to do with what he said to Yuki in the flashback in chapter 49: "do you see me as a man". Perhaps to Touru it has nothing to do with the money, maybe it's for him a test to prove that he's a man when he's not a virgin anymore after "deflowering" Yuki, he's seeking for attention and recognistion from the boys, while the boys gladly made abuse of the whole situation and saw an opportunity to make money and destroy someone's life.

Look at Touru's face when he's asking Yuki to do "it", he didn't even look straight into her face/eyes when he said that he loves her more than anyone else, he's obviously lyng about something, he's not honest at the time. Why? Because he couldn't possibly look straight into her face/eyes since he's going to do some despicable thing to her that will scarce her for life. Perhaps Touru is this kind of guy, a coward who needed these kind of friends who told him that he's a man after some test of "courage". A pretty face does not mean anything, a pretty face can be a coward, and a moron when he did not know what's more important: Yuki or the boys' recognition? I think Touru is fully responsible for the situation since he could have prevented this from happening, but he let the boys toy with him! Whether Touru knew about the hidden camera and that the boys were filming (or not of course) did not matter anymore, because he's playing with Yuki's feeling, trust and love for him by agreeing with the boys to bet that he could seduce Yuki and "do" her.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:34   Link #2109
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi View Post
I agree, but as I stated in an earlier post, I think it will be the other way around. I think Touru will show up VERY soon, once it's been established that Utsumi can't figure out how to face Yuki, then there will be a drawn out face-off between both guys for Yuki's affections as she tries to sort out her feelings. I believe she'll go back to Touru first and then need to be swayed back to Utsumi.
Yes, it will be soon. I can't see the final arc of a shonen romance to be a triangle with two guys.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:36   Link #2110
Nemuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCman View Post
Snip......
I'm surprising this topic is still going lol, is someone on AS actually faulting Yuki? The consensus/majority believes Yuki is the victim in this. A well I'm going to be surprise at how many iteration are going to come after this.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:41   Link #2111
MeoTwister5
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The fact that a lot of sectors in modern society still blame the victim of a sexual crime rather than the perpetrator is one of the main reasons why sex crimes have yet to go down.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:54   Link #2112
Mughi
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
The fact that a lot of sectors in modern society still blame the victim of a sexual crime rather than the perpetrator is one of the main reasons why sex crimes have yet to go down.
Bingo!

And so it continues here... "She's at fault because she was so stupid to not insist on a comfy romantic first time!" Such an Otaku way of looking at the world. If she HAD insisted on a perfect first time, the crowd would be demeaning her for being a biotch and she should just get over herself and do it! Either way, the victimized, naive little girl who genuinely was ignorant and wanted to hold onto her friend and first love is at fault for "giving it up too easily".

Ah, but she has become what she is now as a consequence. Most people here seem to want to vilify Yuki for being too stringent, but she's the one who has learned from her FIRST bad experience. Getting OVER that experience and moving on is the next step.
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Old 2011-01-23, 11:57   Link #2113
MeoTwister5
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It's a fact that sickens me everyday, which is why whenever I read news articles and comments where the blame is placed on victims rather than perpetrators I get the uneasy desire to just throw up in shame.

It's almost like saying people WANT to get raped. It's disgusting.
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Old 2011-01-23, 12:38   Link #2114
cloak_and_dagger
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Judging by the spirited posts in here, I'd say Sasuga's done a pretty good job.
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Old 2011-01-23, 15:28   Link #2115
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by cloak_and_dagger View Post
Judging by the spirited posts in here, I'd say Sasuga's done a pretty good job.
It's sort of like advertising via really annoying commercials. They WANT you to get annoyed, or think it's stupid or lame or unforgivably horrible. That way it sticks with you and eventually you might say to yourself, "You know, that's really not so bad," and go out and buy their stuff. That's their power over you.

I think Sasuga must be enjoying herself if she knows how much power she's having over people's emotions as well.
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Old 2011-01-23, 15:54   Link #2116
cloak_and_dagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
It's sort of like advertising via really annoying commercials. They WANT you to get annoyed, or think it's stupid or lame or unforgivably horrible. That way it sticks with you and eventually you might say to yourself, "You know, that's really not so bad," and go out and buy their stuff. That's their power over you.

I think Sasuga must be enjoying herself if she knows how much power she's having over people's emotions as well.
Hahaha right on the money! Couldn't have said a word better! However, I'm not so naive as to think many people on this forum are ignorant of this, I think they just can't help themselves .
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Old 2011-01-23, 22:53   Link #2117
Rainrir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
It's sort of like advertising via really annoying commercials. They WANT you to get annoyed, or think it's stupid or lame or unforgivably horrible. That way it sticks with you and eventually you might say to yourself, "You know, that's really not so bad," and go out and buy their stuff. That's their power over you.

I think Sasuga must be enjoying herself if she knows how much power she's having over people's emotions as well.
Implying this is a cheap trick she only pulled out this chapter to shock and awe people. This has been known for a long time and is a central point to the plot. I cannot help you if you think the setting is annoying, but you need to reconsider your own reading ability if you feel the author is trying to troll the readers, instead of being consistent with her own story.
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Old 2011-01-25, 07:21   Link #2118
Haru~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
It's a fact that sickens me everyday, which is why whenever I read news articles and comments where the blame is placed on victims rather than perpetrators I get the uneasy desire to just throw up in shame.

It's almost like saying people WANT to get raped. It's disgusting.
A serious problem in our country mate.
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Old 2011-01-25, 09:34   Link #2119
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Implying this is a cheap trick she only pulled out this chapter to shock and awe people. This has been known for a long time and is a central point to the plot. I cannot help you if you think the setting is annoying, but you need to reconsider your own reading ability if you feel the author is trying to troll the readers, instead of being consistent with her own story.
I didn't imply that at all. I said it's sort of like that. Also, I might be one of the few readers left who isn't annoyed. And I never said she was inconsistent.
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Old 2011-01-26, 21:08   Link #2120
n0c0ntr0l
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Chapter 67 is up.
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