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Old 2011-01-23, 11:45   Link #21661
Jan-Poo
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n the End of EP8 it was made quite clear that the Red truth is the objective truth and while the way it is verbalized can be toyed around with (like Battler is dead) it is made clear several times that you cannot say things that aren't true on an objective level...
Red truths are context based.

Meta-Battler couldn't repeat in red that he was born from Asumu because the context wasn't the situation of a specific gameboard.
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Old 2011-01-23, 14:41   Link #21662
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You didn't read my post? I said that "Battler didn't kill anyone in any game" mean "Battler is not the culprit in any novel Battler wrote".
Reality is not a game, so there's no conflict.
But the problem is that, within the context of the story, this makes things unsolvable because we're given divine authority telling us the detective, the protagonist, is not the culprit.

Except he is fuck you everyone who read this far. Sorry, no.

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And why do you make theory about Yasu is the culprit while Will already said "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!"?
I don't think she is the culprit, so that's not my problem. Most people get around it by saying Yasu is the family head, only pretending to be a servant. It's valid, as it's been done in Dine-following novels before.

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At least the metaworlds of EP4 and 8 are hardly explainable as a part of the fiction written by Hachij˘ T˘ya unless you say that the whole 1998 plot is fictional as well.
Lol, this is actually something that was speculated before the release of EP8.
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Old 2011-01-23, 20:19   Link #21663
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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post

After finishing EP8, I was keeping thinking about one thing. At first Ange’s determined to find the truth, she said she would accept it no matter how harsh it is. She had already prepared herself for the worst case, that maybe Rudolf and Kyrie were the culprit. But in the end she's still crushed by it. Why? To Ange, what can be worse than the fact her parents are murderers?
You are absolutely right. That alone makes Battler the culprit. There is no way around it.

And that explains why R07 had to scapegoat Ange's parents in Ep7 Tea Party and in the murder game of Ep8. With anyone else as the "final fictional culprit" there would still be some room for doubt. With R & K, Battler as the culprit of R-prime is 100% guaranteed. Do you think Ange would kill herself over finding the truth in which, say, fat George is the mass murderer? Yep, just think about it for a sec, and it becomes obvious.

As for the R-prime incident itself, I believe it was rather simple compared to the fictions. No greedy siblings shooting themselves over money, for sure. When Battler unexpectedly returned, Yasu simply couldn't help telling him about everything: the headship, the gold, the bomb. So he came up with the plan to kill everyone, including Yasu. He (wrongly) hated his parents because of the whole Asumu mess, and other people were total strangers to him, anyway. Remember, he hasn’t seen any of them for 6 years. And the only place where Yasu x Battler existed was Yasu's fucked up head.

Motive? Lol, money. He was young and he, like, needed it. It was stated since ep1 that Battler is a slacker with no real plans for the future.

Howdunit? During October 5 Battler & Yasu transported as much gold as they could using the underground tunnels to a boat waiting at the Kuwadorian coast. Then they set the bomb. Then Nice Boat. Voila. I believe he attempted to drown Yasu as soon as they left the island, but failed somehow.

I also believe Ep1-4 were all written by Yasu, Banquet & Alliance after the incident. The appearance of Ange as the investigator in Ep3 and Ep4 is Yasu blackmailing Battler, plain and simple. Split the gold or your sister knows the truth. Btw, who do you think Okonogi was working for in the end? Could it be that non-fictional Ange got too close to the truth and had to be silenced by the orders of her onii-san? Remember, only Eva, Battler and maybe Yasu knew about the Rokken arsenal, and Okonogi phone conversation with Amakusa clearly shows he knew it all. Now who would provide Okonogi with that kind of info? I doubt it was Eva, who'd rather die than disclose anything.

Battler's amnesia may be fake too, of course. It's too convenient to be real.

In short, I once predicted that Umineko was a mash-up of "Atonement" and "The Cave of Ideas". It turned out it is a mash-up of "Atonement" and "The Usual Suspects". And Battler is Keyser S÷ze.
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Old 2011-01-23, 23:24   Link #21664
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You are absolutely right. That alone makes Battler the culprit. There is no way around it.
No it doesn't. You're creating a false dichotomy. I can think of several things that could be more horrifying than EP7 Tea Party without Battler being the culprit:

1) It was an accident and everyone died for nothing.
2) Battler having had the opportunity to do something to save their family and was unable to do so.
3) Maria being the culprit.
4) Eva being a hero.
5) The incident somehow being Ange's fault in any way.

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Do you think Ange would kill herself over finding the truth in which, say, fat George is the mass murderer? Yep, just think about it for a sec, and it becomes obvious.
"That fatass managed to actually kill my family? Damn, fuck the world, I'm out."

Quote:
As for the R-prime incident itself, I believe it was rather simple compared to the fictions. No greedy siblings shooting themselves over money, for sure. When Battler unexpectedly returned, Yasu simply couldn't help telling him about everything: the headship, the gold, the bomb. So he came up with the plan to kill everyone, including Yasu. He (wrongly) hated his parents because of the whole Asumu mess, and other people were total strangers to him, anyway. Remember, he hasn’t seen any of them for 6 years. And the only place where Yasu x Battler existed was Yasu's fucked up head.

Motive? Lol, money. He was young and he, like, needed it. It was stated since ep1 that Battler is a slacker with no real plans for the future.
So much for heart, huh? Screw the entire episode and a half or so dedicated to character development and motive, everything we know about Battler is a lie and he kills nine year olds for profit. Fuck yeahr.

You might as well say that an evil twin did it, since you're essentially invoking a completely different character who looks just like the Battler we came to know to come out of the woodwork and kill people.

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Howdunit? During October 5 Battler & Yasu transported as much gold as they could using the underground tunnels to a boat waiting at the Kuwadorian coast. Then they set the bomb. Then Nice Boat. Voila. I believe he attempted to drown Yasu as soon as they left the island, but failed somehow.

I also believe Ep1-4 were all written by Yasu, Banquet & Alliance after the incident. The appearance of Ange as the investigator in Ep3 and Ep4 is Yasu blackmailing Battler, plain and simple. Split the gold or your sister knows the truth. Btw, who do you think Okonogi was working for in the end? Could it be that non-fictional Ange got too close to the truth and had to be silenced by the orders of her onii-san? Remember, only Eva, Battler and maybe Yasu knew about the Rokken arsenal, and Okonogi phone conversation with Amakusa clearly shows he knew it all. Now who would provide Okonogi with that kind of info? I doubt it was Eva, who'd rather die than disclose anything.
So basically you're just ignoring the entirety of EP8.
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Old 2011-01-24, 09:48   Link #21665
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
For example, in EP1 and 2, the siblings argue, especially about the position their finances or their companies are in. It was said that Krauss did background checks on them. Now, this conversation was written by Yasu, but involved events that occurred off the island. If Krauss did the background check but did not tell Yasu... then how could Yasu know about these things to write them? Therefore, only two things could have happened. Yasu did her own background check. Somehow? Or, she had Krauss do the background check for her (or he did it and for some reason told Yasu in great detail). This seems more the likely scenario given Krauss seems to be the one written of as having all the connections. So this leads you to realize Krauss may know some if not a lot of Yasu's plan already. And earlier, same with Rudolf. (Maybe why they are murdered so often.)
Or, and I'm just playing devil's advocate here, she made the whole thing up. I know how dumb that sounds, but we don't actually know what financial wrangling Eva had to do to keep the Ushiromiya Group solvent. We aren't told by a credible narrator that, for instance, the exact financial problems mentioned in Krauss's speech are all true.
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Basically we can push 100% on the Author theory now... if Yasu wrote something she could not observe herself easily, then she MUST have been informed by someone else. This goes the same with Battler in EP3-6.
Reasonable enough, an author can't write something he or she doesn't know. Again, unless they just make it up. That's always a possibility.
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... and... this led me to have very, very suspicious thoughts about Battler. He seems to know too much. Granted he could've picked this up from EP1-2... but... I remember there was something odd about EP3-4 where he began supplying his own new information... if I can only remember what it was...

It occurs to me that Battler-Prime may have been much, much more involved in the family than Yasu gave him credit for.
Intriguing, isn't it?

Bear in mind, however, that we have no idea what information channels exist outside of what comes up in the stories. For instance, how does Battler know that Maria wrote a diary? That Ange had the diary? That Ange's life was influenced by the diary? It appears that this has to have been at least partially true, or she wouldn't know about Sakutarou. But how would either Hachijou learn that?

Yet we can't say "well it's impossible," because we don't know for sure. For all we know there's a magazine article about Ange and Ikuko just bought it and showed it to Tohya/Battler. Or they just made the whole thing up. It's basically unverifiable.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So basically the Red Truth is completely and utterly meaningless. That's awesome.
Technically it "applies to all games." For all we know it can never speak of "reality," but only to a frame of reference known to a meta-character which may or may not coincide with reality depending on how close an approximation of the real person the spoken to character is.

i.e. Bern can talk to 1998 Ange about what "really happened" because Meta-Ange is a close approximation of the Ange who actually lived (but is not in fact that Ange specifically) and thus Bern can speak to experiences that map closely with the real world. But Virgilia can't tell Meta-Battler that "in reality, you were not a culprit" because Meta-Battler is so far removed from Battler-Prime as to essentially be another character (Tohya, if you want to call him that).

Or she could literally be saying Battler wasn't the culprit and he in fact wasn't. Whoops, closed catbox. Thanks a lot, Ryukishi.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's not like "it could be worked around", it works, period.

the servant Shannon and Kanon are furnitures, that means they are fake existences, they are cover up identities.

The true person behind them isn't a servant at all, the true person behind them is the true head of the Ushiromiya family, quite the opposite of a servant.
That is so bogus logic though. I mean, I'm not saying it isn't clearly Ryukishi's intent, or that it technically breaks a rule (since we're all pretty sure she's not the culprit), but c'mon.
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Old 2011-01-24, 20:23   Link #21666
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Reasonable enough, an author can't write something he or she doesn't know. Again, unless they just make it up. That's always a possibility.
I think it's more or less THE possibility for Umineko now. I can't say that I don't feel being cheated. That means no characterization that we have seen is sure to be true. Well, maybe it's better to think that it showed us how Yasu or Battler really think about his family. And if that is the case, they have great symphathy for some characters (Rosa, Natsuhi, Eva, etc...)

The island might just blew up in the accident and nothing in the games actually happens, literally or metaphor.

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That is so bogus logic though. I mean, I'm not saying it isn't clearly Ryukishi's intent, or that it technically breaks a rule (since we're all pretty sure she's not the culprit), but c'mon.
Well, I think some people just argue she's a crazy mass murderer a few pages before...
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Old 2011-01-24, 20:56   Link #21667
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Technically it "applies to all games." For all we know it can never speak of "reality," but only to a frame of reference known to a meta-character which may or may not coincide with reality depending on how close an approximation of the real person the spoken to character is.

i.e. Bern can talk to 1998 Ange about what "really happened" because Meta-Ange is a close approximation of the Ange who actually lived (but is not in fact that Ange specifically) and thus Bern can speak to experiences that map closely with the real world. But Virgilia can't tell Meta-Battler that "in reality, you were not a culprit" because Meta-Battler is so far removed from Battler-Prime as to essentially be another character (Tohya, if you want to call him that).

Or she could literally be saying Battler wasn't the culprit and he in fact wasn't. Whoops, closed catbox. Thanks a lot, Ryukishi.
Even though I should know better, I'll just go with the clear intent Ryukishi was trying to paint here; that Battler isn't supposed to be included in our list of suspicious characters. To make "Battler-Prime" the culprit is to pull a trick that's very little better than the "evil twin" solution. "A character that is nothing like Battler in personality but has his general appearance and backround did it. This character wasn't foreshadowed whatsoever, but deal with it."

Then again, Knox's 5th was excluded, so what the fuck.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:17   Link #21668
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Considering that the only mystery in Umineko seems to be found in the fictions, I don't think the Knox rules apply to R-prime. So, whilst the fictional Battler may be a really cool chap who cares for his family, R-prime Battler may not have been like that.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:23   Link #21669
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Even though I should know better, I'll just go with the clear intent Ryukishi was trying to paint here; that Battler isn't supposed to be included in our list of suspicious characters. To make "Battler-Prime" the culprit is to pull a trick that's very little better than the "evil twin" solution. "A character that is nothing like Battler in personality but has his general appearance and backround did it. This character wasn't foreshadowed whatsoever, but deal with it."
To play the spoiler, one word:

Amnesia.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:40   Link #21670
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
To play the spoiler, one word:

Amnesia.
To play a few more words, there's no sense that Touya feels guilty about anything he remembers--which is most of it--and he only avoided Ange out of fear that he would become a stranger, not that said stranger was dangerous or could potentially hurt her.
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Old 2011-01-25, 00:29   Link #21671
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Considering that the only mystery in Umineko seems to be found in the fictions, I don't think the Knox rules apply to R-prime. So, whilst the fictional Battler may be a really cool chap who cares for his family, R-prime Battler may not have been like that.
Yes, but it's even from the narrative point of view of us readers, it's just...BAD. It's essentially the one last final step to just saying "Fuck it. Ignore everything you've read, ever. It's all irrelevant now because you never had a single goddamn foothold of any truth of any kind whatsoever. LOL CATBOX DERP DE DERP."

I could've dealt with most of the crazy shit, but saying we never REALLY learned a damn thing about our main character in any way that matters is where I draw the line. It doesn't even make sense when put under scrutiny.

And, again, it's basically just replacing Battler with what is essentially a new character that looks like him and having this new character be the culprit. If you can't find a culprit without rewriting every basic facet of an established character, you might as well go with the 19th person X, or accept the witch. You're not learning any of the lessons Ryukishi set out to establish, following any of the trends of logic that were given to us as solving tools, and basically gutting out the insides of the story, it's heart and the motives that power that heart, and plugging your own original creation in there to make things fit with your idea.

In other words, you become Bern and people like her.
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Old 2011-01-25, 00:42   Link #21672
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Yes, but it's even from the narrative point of view of us readers, it's just...BAD. It's essentially the one last final step to just saying "Fuck it. Ignore everything you've read, ever. It's all irrelevant now because you never had a single goddamn foothold of any truth of any kind whatsoever. LOL CATBOX DERP DE DERP."

I could've dealt with most of the crazy shit, but saying we never REALLY learned a damn thing about our main character in any way that matters is where I draw the line. It doesn't even make sense when put under scrutiny.
See? This is precisely why some of us didn't like this ending.

Sure, the characterisation we've seen all along could be true, but there's simply no certainty about it. We know, for sure, most of the stories we've seen are fiction. And thus, doubting the characterisation and/or any other thing we've seen is not unreasonable.

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And, again, it's basically just replacing Battler with what is essentially a new character that looks like him and having this new character be the culprit. If you can't find a culprit without rewriting every basic facet of an established character, you might as well go with the 19th person X, or accept the witch. You're not learning any of the lessons Ryukishi set out to establish, following any of the trends of logic that were given to us as solving tools, and basically gutting out the insides of the story, it's heart and the motives that power that heart, and plugging your own original creation in there to make things fit with your idea.
I'm not really doing it, nor is any other person with doubts about R-prime. Personally, I think I understand the characters in the fictions, and thus I can understand that answer. I also understand the idea the story is trying to convey, or at least, I've derived a particular sets of ideas from it. And thus, even if R-prime is entirely different from the fictions, I cannot say the fictions are meaningless.

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In other words, you become Bern and people like her.
What can I do? I enjoy stories about people going trigger happy.
Please understand my heart. ;_;
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:39   Link #21673
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To play a few more words, there's no sense that Touya feels guilty about anything he remembers--which is most of it--and he only avoided Ange out of fear that he would become a stranger, not that said stranger was dangerous or could potentially hurt her.
I was referring more to the idea that if he's going to pull amnesia on us, what corny plot twist won't he pull on us. I have absolutely no trust in his competency once he starts pulling that kind of crap. That was practically the one thing I said I hoped he wouldn't do. I would literally be happier with space aliens and Bigfoot.
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And, again, it's basically just replacing Battler with what is essentially a new character that looks like him and having this new character be the culprit.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time it happened in Umineko.

Ryukishi threw out his own lessons, not his readers. He apparently never intended to "teach" anything but empty wishful thinking and ambiguities. If anything, Bern comes out ahead of her creator for not mounting a cowardly retreat at the last moment and sticking it out. Dire though they are, she has principles. Ryukishi asked us to trust him, then lectured us condescendingly for not trusting him properly, then proved himself unworthy of that trust. He's worse than his own villains. He's worse than his own author stand-in.

Really, it's barking up the wrong tree to rip the people who are disappointed. They aren't the ones who blinked. They're the ones who wanted the lesson to be that it was one of the 18, that truth matters, that you can face the truth without becoming a monster about it. What'd they get instead? "lol it could be these guys but maybe it wasn't I'unno." One can't fault people for continuing to speculate; what else has he left us with but random pieces of an unfinishable puzzle? If the goal was to get us to be respectful and give the story the end it deserved, there was a way to do it and he refused to do it.

You can't hear me golf-clapping over here, but I'm doing it with the dreariest sense of sarcasm that he managed to troll so many faithful people so hard for so long and ditch them by the roadside with no map, no directions, and no indication that the guy who drove them out here had a map in the first place himself.
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:42   Link #21674
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I was referring more to the idea that if he's going to pull amnesia on us, what corny plot twist won't he pull on us. I have absolutely no trust in his competency once he starts pulling that kind of crap. That was practically the one thing I said I hoped he wouldn't do. I would literally be happier with space aliens and Bigfoot.Well, it wouldn't be the first time it happened in Umineko.
I can't think of a single time I've ever liked an amnesia plot, but I enjoyed it here. For one thing, it was written as complicated with a bittersweet edge. I liked and felt for Touya and didn't feel it was cliched at all. In fact, it was probably the best part of the entire episode aside from Battler and Beato's scene at the end.
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:45   Link #21675
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It reeks of a convenience dodge, and I'm no longer going to tiptoe around it: That's exactly what it was.

People were always asking "Yeah well if Battler's alive, why isn't he appearing?" And it turns out he didn't have any good answer, so he went with "He forgot." I could be a prick and say that amnesia doesn't even work that way but the reason I don't like it in fiction has nothing to do with it being unrealistic and everything to do with it being unfathomably stupid.

The "bittersweet older Battler" thing I have no problem with. It's that he had no good mechanic to set it up except amnesia, and he damn well knows it. It makes me question whether he put any thought into it before this point whatsoever, and I'll tell you right out, the answer is that he didn't.
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:50   Link #21676
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Renall, what are you on about? It sounds like you're trying to say that Tooya was the culprit because his amnesia allows him to be, although, Tooya never existed until Battler left the island.

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To play the spoiler, one word:Amnesia.
As in this quote to Aura's message about Battler not being the culprit.

Or do you just hate amnesia stories in general and are raging that he just brought it out even though it didn't really have an effect?
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:50   Link #21677
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It reeks of a convenience dodge, and I'm no longer going to tiptoe around it: That's exactly what it was.

People were always asking "Yeah well if Battler's alive, why isn't he appearing?" And it turns out he didn't have any good answer, so he went with "He forgot." I could be a prick and say that amnesia doesn't even work that way but the reason I don't like it in fiction has nothing to do with it being unrealistic and everything to do with it being unfathomably stupid.

The "bittersweet older Battler" thing I have no problem with. It's that he had no good mechanic to set it up except amnesia, and he damn well knows it. It makes me question whether he put any thought into it before this point whatsoever, and I'll tell you right out, the answer is that he didn't.
Here's the thing, though. Battler having amnesia wasn't a set up to him not rushing back. It was a set up that allowed him to live another life to the point where he was no longer Battler. That's what I find interesting and worthwhile about it. The obvious struggle Touya had between the person in his head and his own life. To me, there's no other way to set that up in a way that makes sense, so I was fine with it and what it told us about Touya as a character.
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:53   Link #21678
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I'm saying, why not an evil twin at this point? Ryukishi spat in our faces. I can't trust him to not be lying to me (although it's more I suspect he didn't actually have answers to give anyone, not that he just didn't feel like revealing any). He asked me to trust him, I did, he pulled third grade plot concepts on me. He put a unicycle juggler at the end of Citizen Kane. So why the heck not Eeeeeevil Battler!!!?
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Here's the thing, though. Battler having amnesia wasn't a set up to him not rushing back. It was a set up that allowed him to live another life to the point where he was no longer Battler. That's what I find interesting and worthwhile about it. The obvious struggle Touya had between the person in his head and his own life. To me, there's no other way to set that up in a way that makes sense, so I was fine with it and what it told us about Touya as a character.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that guy is himself a bad character, just that the author set it up in a profoundly moronic and amateur way.

Here, look: Who says anyone named Ushiromiya Battler existed at all? Maybe Hachijou Tohya is just a nutcase. I guess we'll never know because Ryukishi won't commit to that sort of thing for fear people won't like it. I should not even be permitted to suggest something like this. It simply should not have left me with the feeling that such a thing could even be considered. That's proper closure. Not a lingering question as to whether I missed something to make everything make sense. Not "draw your own conclusions."
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:59   Link #21679
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm saying, why not an evil twin at this point? Ryukishi spat in our faces. I can't trust him to not be lying to me (although it's more I suspect he didn't actually have answers to give anyone, not that he just didn't feel like revealing any). He asked me to trust him, I did, he pulled third grade plot concepts on me. He put a unicycle juggler at the end of Citizen Kane. So why the heck not Eeeeeevil Battler!!!?
I see no spittle in my face.

Nor do I really see any third grade plot concepts. I also see no promise that he will never reveal anything to us either or that all the answers are now locked up.

I think you need to calm down. 8)
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Old 2011-01-25, 02:01   Link #21680
musouka
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Here, look: Who says anyone named Ushiromiya Battler existed at all? Maybe Hachijou Tohya is just a nutcase.
Then I guess Yukari is in on his delusions.

The plot left a lot of things open, but it didn't leave room for anything goes. You seem to be saying that because some things didn't have answers, nothing has an answer.
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