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Old 2011-01-24, 07:12   Link #81
Irisiel
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Actually, in my theory, Faust would not find redemption; Mephisto would agree to release Faust from the hell he agreed to in his previous contract in exchange of the other souls, but then, Faust essentially earns to be put in hell by his actions (damning innocent souls), ending with Mephisto having both Faust and the magical girls' (and maybe, the witches') souls, giving Mephisto the power to rise and create the apocalyptic future.

I also believe that Kyuubee prioritises contracting Madoka above harvesting Mami's soul, hence, if Homura figured out that something is up (maybe she's seen any number of magical girls die and how Kyuubee picks up their soul gem and carries it away), then letting Homura take the soul would effectively crush any remaining trust Madoka would have in her words (also, the reason why Homura is the one fighting in the apocalyptic future is because she would be the only one who refused to reach that last bit of purification, which would be another reason for her to refuse the Grief Seed Mami offered her, and therefore be the only magical girl left standing).

This actually ties with the myth of witches; they also made deals with the devil/Mephisto/Beelzebub/insert-name-of-Satan-here for powers/immortality/favours in exchange for their souls. So they would already be at hand to be used if the enemies actually come from hell.

If Kyuubee is a willing participant, unwilling participant or simply a lifeless doll with no opinion of his own, simply dancing to his puppeteer's tugs on his strings, I cannot tell at the moment (though if he sent Madoka the vision of the future and asked her to change it, it could be that he is an unwilling slave, or Faust figured out that he's getting screwed either way, and wants revenge against Mephisto).
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Old 2011-01-24, 07:30   Link #82
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I got a feeling that madoka wont become mahou shoujo till the last episode
LOL
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Old 2011-01-24, 07:36   Link #83
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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I got a feeling that madoka wont become mahou shoujo till the last episode
LOL
and that's going to be some faqing awesome troll since a lot are alrdy expecting her to be an MG in the future chaps. d biggest twist and disappointment in my part though.L0L. it'd be lame if she won't.XD
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Old 2011-01-24, 07:38   Link #84
panzerfan
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I must warn to not use Mephistopheles' name so casually in place of the Devil, Lucifer. Under the Faustian tales, Mephistopheles is but a servant of the Devil, not the Devil himself.

The problem however Irisiel, is that in many aspects, Mephistopheles is the protector of his consignee while during the stage of him fulfilling the part of devil's obligations. He has, time and time again, acted for the interests of Faust, and in that he has become a representative of his 'customer'. As no rendition of Faust has questioned the likelihood of Faust put to the shoes of Mephistopheles in this manner, it is not going to be clear what the outcome would be.

I am not going to outright assume that apocalypse is what the Serpent desires. Something that you also have to keep in mind is that the Serpent is not painted as one that seeks mere ruination for the sake of ruination. He has an ideological conflict with the creator of all things, and destruction is but a mean to illustrate this observation in the amount of strings that the creator of all things actually has, which no other entity can counter.
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Old 2011-01-24, 08:40   Link #85
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I must separate this from my prior post. I apologize for double-posting.

The parallels that I have now seen in Goethe's Faust and that of Madoka would be that:

In the opening of the drama, Faust, filled with regrets of his life, laments about his life ending before it has truly begun. He felt that he has little importance in a world that emphasizes not the wealth of knowledge in sages... whereas Madoka, filled with regrets of her short life, laments about her life coming to a point where she is of little importance in a world that requires one to be useful... yet, both Madoka and Faust are actually ambitious and hopeful. They both do not see hedonistic happiness as the most important thing.

Faust heads off brazenly, in the spirit of headstrong ignorance, that he shall seek all the ups and downs of humanity without ever stopping, and he shall fall should he wish time to standstill. Madoka has now seen sorrow and joy in its rawest form, and she now has the opportunity to make the same leap of faith... yet she of course is ignorant.

Madoka, as Faust has, will soon face the issue of her hotheaded ambition being doused time, time and time again. The ill omen strikes in this parallel where, by the second part of Faust, the man becomes resolved to do good via obtaining the means to do so. Although Mephistopheles misinterpreted Faust's intentions as Faust attempting to seize power unto himself, it was not so... which led, unfortunately, to the bloody price that Faust paid to achieve his own Utopia, that land made from sea reclamation; The blood of innocents would yet again trip the mind of the idealist.

Will we see this occur with Madoka, where good intention does not yield the ideal performance?

Faust lives on, with humility of understanding that he is no better than others and that he cannot play god, yet he must live on and continue this journey in the ugly yet beautiful world. Will Madoka come to understand this bitterness and yet still resolve to reach a form of satisfaction, albeit with humility? It remains to be seen. This realization has earned Faust of his salvation, yet would that point come with Madoka and would she in term, reach her salvation?

In relation to the Faustian issue in the price to be paid for a contract, I now think that Goethe's answer would be that once signed, the moment of lament is over. Moreover, make no assumption that one will gain such tangible benefit and that you are wiser than the other side of the consigning parties by dictating the terms of the agreement. After that, all parties must partake the journey together, as success and failure is now defined, and intertwined between all parties involved.

Spoiler for Taken to margin since it's causing misunderstanding:


@J the Drifter: Not really, ti's only an allegory.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-01-24 at 12:46.
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Old 2011-01-24, 11:20   Link #86
J the Drafter
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
As Junko applies her makeup, Faust downs the Witche's one-times-one, Madoka must transform into a magical girl and face a world that she has consigned to involve herself in. Everything prior is just prologue. I hope Madoka would solve the Witchs' Epitaph and enter the Golden Land of her choosing.
What does Umineko have to do with this?

On another note, does anyone find it strange that Kyubey is specifically required to ask his potential recruits if they want to become puella magi? Something is preventing the contractors from forcibly binding the girls into the magical girl life. Kyubey might need the girls in mystical debt to him before he can transform them, he might need the girls to take some action of their own accord during the transformation ritual, or he might be prohibited by agreement with a rival party from taking the girls by force. Or he could just feel bad about what he's doing, and want the girls to get something out of the deal, but you'd think that if he could forcibly bind people to puella maig service he'd have done it against Charlotte.
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“Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom” and “Superman vs. the Elite”

(Mostly accurate dialogue, but with a little editing to make it mesh better.)
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Old 2011-01-24, 12:21   Link #87
Jimmy C
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Kyubei is like a genie, he can only manifest his powers through granting wishes.
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Old 2011-01-24, 12:35   Link #88
GDB
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Well, if Kyuubei is synonymous to Mephisto, he can't just walk around and take people's souls for no reason. He has to tempt them, and they have to succumb to that temptation.
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Old 2011-01-24, 13:35   Link #89
hoarfrost
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Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
What does Umineko have to do with this?

On another note, does anyone find it strange that Kyubey is specifically required to ask his potential recruits if they want to become puella magi? Something is preventing the contractors from forcibly binding the girls into the magical girl life. Kyubey might need the girls in mystical debt to him before he can transform them, he might need the girls to take some action of their own accord during the transformation ritual, or he might be prohibited by agreement with a rival party from taking the girls by force. Or he could just feel bad about what he's doing, and want the girls to get something out of the deal, but you'd think that if he could forcibly bind people to puella maig service he'd have done it against Charlotte.
Well, as he doesn't seem very powerful, he probably wouldn't want a gang of them chasing him down for doing something like that. It seems Homura alone was enough to kill him unless that desperation was an act.
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Old 2011-01-24, 14:22   Link #90
Siniyas
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OK. Here is something that seems very plausible to me.
Homuras wish was, to be popular and to excel at everything and this will explain alot.
When Mami and her meet in episode 3 about 1/3 through, there is a particual line.
"That sounds like something a person, who has been bullied her whole life would think.

So what i am thinking is, that Homura already was a student at Madokas school. Thats why she knows her and thats why she knows the school. Now through her wish to become popular and excel everywhere, it meant for the old Homura to disapear and a new different Homura transfers into school. Everyones memory of a weak little ugly girl, that was bullied all the time disapears.

Maybe madoka was her only friend or someone who at least tried to be nice to her or protect her. Maybe not and she just wants her not to become a magical girl, because if she does become a rival to her, her wish might be in danger, since it is fueled by defeating witches, like many have the theory here. Them being friends, supports that Homura actually seems to care about her happinies and lead her away from being a magical girl with words instead of attacking her.

There is also her making an angry face, when Madoka mentions her name is weird. Maybe because the other children used to tease her with it, call here really bad nicknames?

Thats basically how far my speculations go right now. Also some of the other thoughts in this thread are really insteresting. Hope to see more
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Old 2011-01-24, 19:26   Link #91
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Siniyas - Now that's very interesting speculation! Thanks for sharing.

That would certainly work well with Homura's character as we know her so far. It would be pretty cool if you end up being correct, or close to correct, here.
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Old 2011-01-24, 20:12   Link #92
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now someone in 2ch is throwing up link to Through the Looking Glass............
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Old 2011-01-24, 20:44   Link #93
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I feel like I have to point this out... if you watch the new ending sequence, you can see Madoka walking past four figures. One is Sayaka, one is Mami (who's sitting down, while the all the others are standing up), one is an unknown individual (the red-haired girl we see in the opening?), and one is Homura... notice that, while none of the others interact with Madoka, Homura reaches out to her as she passes...

Er, I thought it was interesting. :/

Speaking of which, what about the red-haired girl? We see her on a balcony of some sort in the OP, and Madoka's other friend seems to be looking up at her in the next shot... Hm, one has to wonder.

Maybe I'm just reading into things too much. xD;;;
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Old 2011-01-24, 23:26   Link #94
jeroz
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next episode mami comes back without any use of wishes

Mami: "Yeah, I'd been through this kind of stuff before, no big deal, just hurts a lot and I don't get the chance to clean my soul gem. Don't like how the respawn time gets longer though...Shouldn't wish to not die when kyubee appear in front of me that time"
*pops the head back on* ".....what?"
*smile* "oh by the way, anyone seen my left hand somewhere? my soul gem is still stuck on there"



But still, considering that the 2nd boss is that cheap (2 parts), I can see Urobuchi setting up more traps for the mahou shoujo to fall in.
(now give me more tentacles..........just kidding :P)
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Old 2011-01-25, 00:49   Link #95
Jimmy C
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Yeah, even death is no escape from being a magical girl.
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Old 2011-01-25, 03:35   Link #96
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siniyas View Post
OK. Here is something that seems very plausible to me.
Homuras wish was, to be popular and to excel at everything and this will explain alot.
When Mami and her meet in episode 3 about 1/3 through, there is a particual line.
"That sounds like something a person, who has been bullied her whole life would think.

So what i am thinking is, that Homura already was a student at Madokas school. Thats why she knows her and thats why she knows the school. Now through her wish to become popular and excel everywhere, it meant for the old Homura to disapear and a new different Homura transfers into school. Everyones memory of a weak little ugly girl, that was bullied all the time disapears.

Maybe madoka was her only friend or someone who at least tried to be nice to her or protect her. Maybe not and she just wants her not to become a magical girl, because if she does become a rival to her, her wish might be in danger, since it is fueled by defeating witches, like many have the theory here. Them being friends, supports that Homura actually seems to care about her happinies and lead her away from being a magical girl with words instead of attacking her.

There is also her making an angry face, when Madoka mentions her name is weird. Maybe because the other children used to tease her with it, call here really bad nicknames?

Thats basically how far my speculations go right now. Also some of the other thoughts in this thread are really insteresting. Hope to see more

i agree, this theory is very plausible. i love to think it will actually happen. and that would just tell that homura really cares for madoka. aww.. i'm liking it.. XDDD
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Old 2011-01-25, 11:18   Link #97
Estavali
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This came to me while I was doing some cleaning. What if Kyubei itself was once human and became what it is now through a witch's curse?

The scenario would go like this:

1) Human!Kyubei, for whatever reason, makes a wish to a Witch, perhaps one that's particularly powerful, to be as powerful as she is, without knowing the latter's true nature.

2) The Witch grants the wish but does it through a curse. Since being human = no special magical powers, in the reasoning of the curse, the only way to grant Kyubei's wish is to transform her/him into something that has the powers s/he so desires. And voila! Kyubei, to its dismay, becomes the cute and creepy little beast we now so know and detest. The good news is that, yes, it now possesses the great power it has desired. The bad news, on the other hand, is that it is denied the right to use its own powers as it wishes. Kyubei, though marvellously omnipotent, is restricted to granting any one wish for every willing party. Other than that, it is now just another small, vulnerable and rather suspicious-looking animal (the subjective invisibility it enjoys could be a "bonus" attached to the curse, perhaps to prevent it from seeking help. Or it could have been a result of tricking a previous Puella Maga into using her wish for this purpose. Personally, I think the latter is more possible).

3) The Witch departs, Ohohoho-like, leaving the newly cursed little animal in a state of shock, outrage and growing despair. Determined to free itself from the curse, Kyubei seeks out anyone who would be so kind as to waste his/her wish to restore it back to normal... Only to find out that, the Witch, being meticulous, has also made it so that this method of wishing the curse away is not going to work, AT ALL.

4) Left with what seems to be utter despair, Kyubei decides that the only way out is to kill the Witch responsible, in the hope that the curse will be broken with her death. Unfortunately for it, the Witch, as we have mentioned, is a meticulous person(?) who took care not to show her real form to her unwitting victim. So while Kyubei can sense Witches, it doesn't know which Witch is the one it needs dead. And in the very first place, how is it, just a small animal, going to kill a Witch as powerful as she is?

5) So in the end, Kyubei comes to the conclusion of using the guilible as its tools. Dangling the wish offer, it fishes in anyone that bites the bait, equips her with magic and sends her out to do battle on the Witches, hoping that with luck, its unwitting minions will strike the jackpot. And these, would be the Puella Maga.

6) As the battles wear on, Kyubei is confronted with the growing understanding of the power of its enemy. While the Witches met, fought and perhaps quelled were seldom small fry, their powers pale in comparison to the One Witch that it is searching for. This introduces the increasingly urgent need to find and create a Puella Maga that could rival, no, best the One Witch in battle.

7) And finally after a long search and many lives sacrificed to its cause, Kyubei found its greatest pawn in the game. An ordinary teenager named Kaname Madoka.


.....


Now if anyone, after reading this, calls out, "WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT?!?!?!"... Well, I guess you're not too off the mark . As of now, I have very little (as in, no) proof to support my speculation. But this is what I do think is possible, though even imho it does seem pretty cliched.
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Old 2011-01-25, 17:48   Link #98
NeoEevee
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
next episode mami comes back without any use of wishes

Mami: "Yeah, I'd been through this kind of stuff before, no big deal, just hurts a lot and I don't get the chance to clean my soul gem. Don't like how the respawn time gets longer though...Shouldn't wish to not die when kyubee appear in front of me that time"
*pops the head back on* ".....what?"
*smile* "oh by the way, anyone seen my left hand somewhere? my soul gem is still stuck on there"



But still, considering that the 2nd boss is that cheap (2 parts), I can see Urobuchi setting up more traps for the mahou shoujo to fall in.
(now give me more tentacles..........just kidding :P)
I giggled.

Anyway, I feel bad now because I don't have any deep, thought out theories to contribute. xD; All I can think of is "WHOAMG THIS IS TURNING INTO SAILOR NOTHING" which... just made me think of something else; Sailor Nothing was an incrediblely dark deconstruction of the magical girl genre, a direction MM seems to be going... but Sailor Nothing still had a happy ending... so could MM have one too?

...Look I like these guys, I don't want them to die. 8[
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Old 2011-01-25, 20:38   Link #99
jeroz
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if anything the amount of fanfic could be huge. I'd already seen tonnes of completely different speculations already
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Old 2011-01-25, 22:26   Link #100
NeoEevee
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OKAY, I actually got something.

-Kyuube is a literal genie; this is mostly for the following theories to work.

-Mami can't die. As in literally cannot die; she'll probably turn up in an episode totally unharmed at best, and shambling around like a zombie at worst. The probability of this depends on the wording of her wish; if it was along the lines of "I don't want to die," then, coupled with the idea of Kyuube being a literal genie, it's at least feasible.

-Mami has to regenerate when she gets killed. I dunno, I just have this picture of Madoka and Sayaka freaking out when Mami turns up looking like an attempt at human transmutation, and it amuses me, so there you go.

-Mami is related to Miyo Takano somehow. Because crack theories are my speciality.
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