2011-01-23, 11:45 | Link #21661 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Meta-Battler couldn't repeat in red that he was born from Asumu because the context wasn't the situation of a specific gameboard.
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2011-01-23, 14:41 | Link #21662 | |||
The True Culprit
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Except he is fuck you everyone who read this far. Sorry, no. Quote:
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2011-01-23, 20:19 | Link #21663 | |
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And that explains why R07 had to scapegoat Ange's parents in Ep7 Tea Party and in the murder game of Ep8. With anyone else as the "final fictional culprit" there would still be some room for doubt. With R & K, Battler as the culprit of R-prime is 100% guaranteed. Do you think Ange would kill herself over finding the truth in which, say, fat George is the mass murderer? Yep, just think about it for a sec, and it becomes obvious. As for the R-prime incident itself, I believe it was rather simple compared to the fictions. No greedy siblings shooting themselves over money, for sure. When Battler unexpectedly returned, Yasu simply couldn't help telling him about everything: the headship, the gold, the bomb. So he came up with the plan to kill everyone, including Yasu. He (wrongly) hated his parents because of the whole Asumu mess, and other people were total strangers to him, anyway. Remember, he hasn’t seen any of them for 6 years. And the only place where Yasu x Battler existed was Yasu's fucked up head. Motive? Lol, money. He was young and he, like, needed it. It was stated since ep1 that Battler is a slacker with no real plans for the future. Howdunit? During October 5 Battler & Yasu transported as much gold as they could using the underground tunnels to a boat waiting at the Kuwadorian coast. Then they set the bomb. Then Nice Boat. Voila. I believe he attempted to drown Yasu as soon as they left the island, but failed somehow. I also believe Ep1-4 were all written by Yasu, Banquet & Alliance after the incident. The appearance of Ange as the investigator in Ep3 and Ep4 is Yasu blackmailing Battler, plain and simple. Split the gold or your sister knows the truth. Btw, who do you think Okonogi was working for in the end? Could it be that non-fictional Ange got too close to the truth and had to be silenced by the orders of her onii-san? Remember, only Eva, Battler and maybe Yasu knew about the Rokken arsenal, and Okonogi phone conversation with Amakusa clearly shows he knew it all. Now who would provide Okonogi with that kind of info? I doubt it was Eva, who'd rather die than disclose anything. Battler's amnesia may be fake too, of course. It's too convenient to be real. In short, I once predicted that Umineko was a mash-up of "Atonement" and "The Cave of Ideas". It turned out it is a mash-up of "Atonement" and "The Usual Suspects". And Battler is Keyser Söze.
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2011-01-23 at 22:31. |
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2011-01-23, 23:24 | Link #21664 | ||||
The True Culprit
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1) It was an accident and everyone died for nothing. 2) Battler having had the opportunity to do something to save their family and was unable to do so. 3) Maria being the culprit. 4) Eva being a hero. 5) The incident somehow being Ange's fault in any way. Quote:
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You might as well say that an evil twin did it, since you're essentially invoking a completely different character who looks just like the Battler we came to know to come out of the woodwork and kill people. Quote:
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2011-01-24, 09:48 | Link #21665 | |||||
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Bear in mind, however, that we have no idea what information channels exist outside of what comes up in the stories. For instance, how does Battler know that Maria wrote a diary? That Ange had the diary? That Ange's life was influenced by the diary? It appears that this has to have been at least partially true, or she wouldn't know about Sakutarou. But how would either Hachijou learn that? Yet we can't say "well it's impossible," because we don't know for sure. For all we know there's a magazine article about Ange and Ikuko just bought it and showed it to Tohya/Battler. Or they just made the whole thing up. It's basically unverifiable. Quote:
i.e. Bern can talk to 1998 Ange about what "really happened" because Meta-Ange is a close approximation of the Ange who actually lived (but is not in fact that Ange specifically) and thus Bern can speak to experiences that map closely with the real world. But Virgilia can't tell Meta-Battler that "in reality, you were not a culprit" because Meta-Battler is so far removed from Battler-Prime as to essentially be another character (Tohya, if you want to call him that). Or she could literally be saying Battler wasn't the culprit and he in fact wasn't. Whoops, closed catbox. Thanks a lot, Ryukishi. Quote:
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Last edited by Renall; 2011-01-24 at 10:00. |
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2011-01-24, 20:23 | Link #21666 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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The island might just blew up in the accident and nothing in the games actually happens, literally or metaphor. Quote:
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2011-01-24, 20:56 | Link #21667 | |
The True Culprit
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Then again, Knox's 5th was excluded, so what the fuck.
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2011-01-24, 21:17 | Link #21668 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Considering that the only mystery in Umineko seems to be found in the fictions, I don't think the Knox rules apply to R-prime. So, whilst the fictional Battler may be a really cool chap who cares for his family, R-prime Battler may not have been like that.
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2011-01-24, 21:23 | Link #21669 | |
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Amnesia.
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2011-01-24, 21:40 | Link #21670 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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To play a few more words, there's no sense that Touya feels guilty about anything he remembers--which is most of it--and he only avoided Ange out of fear that he would become a stranger, not that said stranger was dangerous or could potentially hurt her.
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2011-01-25, 00:29 | Link #21671 | |
The True Culprit
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I could've dealt with most of the crazy shit, but saying we never REALLY learned a damn thing about our main character in any way that matters is where I draw the line. It doesn't even make sense when put under scrutiny. And, again, it's basically just replacing Battler with what is essentially a new character that looks like him and having this new character be the culprit. If you can't find a culprit without rewriting every basic facet of an established character, you might as well go with the 19th person X, or accept the witch. You're not learning any of the lessons Ryukishi set out to establish, following any of the trends of logic that were given to us as solving tools, and basically gutting out the insides of the story, it's heart and the motives that power that heart, and plugging your own original creation in there to make things fit with your idea. In other words, you become Bern and people like her.
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2011-01-25, 00:42 | Link #21672 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Sure, the characterisation we've seen all along could be true, but there's simply no certainty about it. We know, for sure, most of the stories we've seen are fiction. And thus, doubting the characterisation and/or any other thing we've seen is not unreasonable. Quote:
What can I do? I enjoy stories about people going trigger happy. Please understand my heart. ;_;
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2011-01-25, 01:39 | Link #21673 | ||
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Ryukishi threw out his own lessons, not his readers. He apparently never intended to "teach" anything but empty wishful thinking and ambiguities. If anything, Bern comes out ahead of her creator for not mounting a cowardly retreat at the last moment and sticking it out. Dire though they are, she has principles. Ryukishi asked us to trust him, then lectured us condescendingly for not trusting him properly, then proved himself unworthy of that trust. He's worse than his own villains. He's worse than his own author stand-in. Really, it's barking up the wrong tree to rip the people who are disappointed. They aren't the ones who blinked. They're the ones who wanted the lesson to be that it was one of the 18, that truth matters, that you can face the truth without becoming a monster about it. What'd they get instead? "lol it could be these guys but maybe it wasn't I'unno." One can't fault people for continuing to speculate; what else has he left us with but random pieces of an unfinishable puzzle? If the goal was to get us to be respectful and give the story the end it deserved, there was a way to do it and he refused to do it. You can't hear me golf-clapping over here, but I'm doing it with the dreariest sense of sarcasm that he managed to troll so many faithful people so hard for so long and ditch them by the roadside with no map, no directions, and no indication that the guy who drove them out here had a map in the first place himself.
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2011-01-25, 01:42 | Link #21674 | |
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2011-01-25, 01:45 | Link #21675 |
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It reeks of a convenience dodge, and I'm no longer going to tiptoe around it: That's exactly what it was.
People were always asking "Yeah well if Battler's alive, why isn't he appearing?" And it turns out he didn't have any good answer, so he went with "He forgot." I could be a prick and say that amnesia doesn't even work that way but the reason I don't like it in fiction has nothing to do with it being unrealistic and everything to do with it being unfathomably stupid. The "bittersweet older Battler" thing I have no problem with. It's that he had no good mechanic to set it up except amnesia, and he damn well knows it. It makes me question whether he put any thought into it before this point whatsoever, and I'll tell you right out, the answer is that he didn't.
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2011-01-25, 01:50 | Link #21676 |
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Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Renall, what are you on about? It sounds like you're trying to say that Tooya was the culprit because his amnesia allows him to be, although, Tooya never existed until Battler left the island.
As in this quote to Aura's message about Battler not being the culprit. Or do you just hate amnesia stories in general and are raging that he just brought it out even though it didn't really have an effect? |
2011-01-25, 01:50 | Link #21677 | |
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2011-01-25, 01:53 | Link #21678 | |
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I'm saying, why not an evil twin at this point? Ryukishi spat in our faces. I can't trust him to not be lying to me (although it's more I suspect he didn't actually have answers to give anyone, not that he just didn't feel like revealing any). He asked me to trust him, I did, he pulled third grade plot concepts on me. He put a unicycle juggler at the end of Citizen Kane. So why the heck not Eeeeeevil Battler!!!?
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Here, look: Who says anyone named Ushiromiya Battler existed at all? Maybe Hachijou Tohya is just a nutcase. I guess we'll never know because Ryukishi won't commit to that sort of thing for fear people won't like it. I should not even be permitted to suggest something like this. It simply should not have left me with the feeling that such a thing could even be considered. That's proper closure. Not a lingering question as to whether I missed something to make everything make sense. Not "draw your own conclusions."
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2011-01-25, 01:59 | Link #21679 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Nor do I really see any third grade plot concepts. I also see no promise that he will never reveal anything to us either or that all the answers are now locked up. I think you need to calm down. 8) |
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2011-01-25, 02:01 | Link #21680 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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The plot left a lot of things open, but it didn't leave room for anything goes. You seem to be saying that because some things didn't have answers, nothing has an answer.
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