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Old 2011-01-26, 02:37   Link #21741
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh, this popular misconception seemed to have come from the Umineko Wikia, I think. What happened was after the release of EP6 (Japanese), someone translated Erika's TIPS and posted it. I remember seeing the translation on the wikia, with an added line that Erika's dead body that floated to Rokkenjima. But it was really nothing more than a theory.

Since it was on the 'translation' people took it as confirmed fact, even though the English translation came out later. Once in awhile we kept seeing it appear on here and elsewhere on the internet, despite a few people correcting it several times. I think it refuses to die.

Or perhaps we can say it became gold truth. 8)
Yeah, I remember correcting people on the TIPS for Eiserne Jungrau. However, I still heard theories about how Van Dine's "twelve" wedges would come into play.
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Old 2011-01-26, 02:45   Link #21742
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Yeah, I remember correcting people on the TIPS for Eiserne Jungrau. However, I still heard theories about how Van Dine's "twelve" wedges would come into play.
To be fair, most people were reading episode 7 in a hurry. 二十,十 二, easy mistake. That plus the assumption that Ryu would remove some of Dine's rules since they didn't fit...

Also, my personal theory about Van Dine's rules is that Will COULD use them(since using them and killing mysteries is sort of his job) but since he is not a jerk he chose not to declare his rules in red since he doesn't want to break Beatrice's gameboard. It would explain how Bern sidestepped so many of his rules, he just didn't use them because she reminded him of how that would break the gameboard. And it would fit with his personality.
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Old 2011-01-26, 02:57   Link #21743
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
To be fair, most people were reading episode 7 in a hurry. 二十,十 二, easy mistake. That plus the assumption that Ryu would remove some of Dine's rules since they didn't fit...
Nah, no one was in a hurry because it was months before episode 7 was even released.
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Also, my personal theory about Van Dine's rules is that Will COULD use them(since using them and killing mysteries is sort of his job) but since he is not a jerk he chose not to declare his rules in red since he doesn't want to break Beatrice's gameboard. It would explain how Bern sidestepped so many of his rules, he just didn't use them because she reminded him of how that would break the gameboard. And it would fit with his personality.
I was wondering if he was going to say his third rule in red.

Take that, no?
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Old 2011-01-26, 03:00   Link #21744
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Nah, no one was in a hurry because it was months before episode 7 was even released.
Wait, I knew people made that mistake once episode 7 came out, but they made the same mistake with episode 5 tips?
...Amazing.

EDIT: Oh, just realized that the original typo was in the translation while episode 7's mistake was from many people actually reading the thing.

Quote:
I was wondering if he was going to say his third rule in red.

Take that, no?
That would be a great ending. Battler and Beatrice about to kiss, then time freezes, Will cuts it in half and kills it with Dine.

Game over.

I'm joking, but I wish there were more Dine rules. They didn't get as much attention as the Knox ones, which is a shame. S.S Van Dine is probably one of my top 5 favorite mystery writers.

Last edited by Sherringford; 2011-01-26 at 03:12.
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Old 2011-01-26, 03:20   Link #21745
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
We should probably organize a picture with the most common misconceptions about episode 8 though. Some people probably don't even know about the author theory and will be arriving blindly and confused.
I'm running away before that happens.

Though it's easy for me to be confident about it now, after EP8. I was going into panic mode about it and some of our other theories when I started it... "What if all those Author Theory clues were just red herrings? What if Ryukishi's just trolling us! Augggh!"
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Old 2011-01-26, 03:32   Link #21746
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
That would be a great ending. Battler and Beatrice about to kiss, then time freezes, Will cuts it in half and kills it with Dine.

Game over.

I'm joking, but I wish there were more Dine rules. They didn't get as much attention as the Knox ones, which is a shame. S.S Van Dine is probably one of my top 5 favorite mystery writers.
You know, that'd be rather cool, in some fashion.
Just think of it: The fans are there, just in the moment. Shipping Maximus. Battler and Beato are really close, and then there's an *Ahem* out of nowhere. Battler and Beato stop and turn to see the one intruding this moment. The intruder is Will, who is there with his eyes closed and his stern face. He says "I'm sorry for intruding at such terrible time, but...". At this point Will, while keeping his eyes closed, shows his pimp smile and says: "There's one last bit that should be mentioned, before this touching closure." Battler and Beato ask what it could be, and then, suddenly, with a troll face at full Will says: "Van Dine's Twenty Rules. Rule #3. It is forbidden for a love interest to exist!" (Cue ending sequence)
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Old 2011-01-26, 09:18   Link #21747
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Well I wasn't entirely joking. I legitimately am curious about the existence of Gohda's family now, since Ange contacted other families and shit for information. Is Gohda just getting that much of the shaft, or does he have no next of kin whatsoever?
Well, everyone hates him. Which is going to make eternity in the Golden Land suck ass with Kanon over there glaring at him all the time while Natsuhi, like, totally doesn't appreciate his genius (but she saved him, so he's so torn, drama!).

Literally no one cares about Gohda even though, as far as I can tell, he's the only person who can definitely be called legitimately innocent in basically any scenario not involving him being the actual killer (which is just silly). He seriously was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Still, he's a guy who got killed in the incident. Surely somebody wants to know what happened to him. A guy who really, really liked his cooking before he lost his previous job? His landlord? Somebody must be sad for him.
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I'm running away before that happens.

Though it's easy for me to be confident about it now, after EP8. I was going into panic mode about it and some of our other theories when I started it... "What if all those Author Theory clues were just red herrings? What if Ryukishi's just trolling us! Augggh!"
I'm honestly not sure how he could have done that with ep8 (at least after 6 and 7), but I suppose if anyone could find a way, he'd do it.
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Old 2011-01-26, 10:49   Link #21748
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Nanjo Masayuki still operated the Nanjo clinic, which was fairly close to Rokkenjima; Kumasawa worked at Rokkenjima for decades, so she probably lived on a nearby island; they would be easy to track down in any case, and Ange would be going right by them.

Gohda was the youngest employee at the hotel, but the oldest of the applicants at Rokkenjima. I'd guess his age in 1986 about 40. That would put his parents age in 1998 in their 70s, if they were still alive. Plus, there's no reason for them to have roots around Rokkenjima, so they could be anywhere in Japan.
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Old 2011-01-26, 13:51   Link #21749
Kheve
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Stop and think for a second: Put yourself in the shoes of Gohda's mom. Your son dies when his employer's home literally blows up. The police are not inclined to provide significant details. He gets very little media attention because he wasn't rich or famous like the people he worked for. And some asshole teenagers on the Internet, goaded on by irresponsible jerks like Professor Ootsuki, start spinning nonsense about he was a witch, no he was the killer, no he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Is the grief of Gohda's mom and the desire for closure and some kind of understanding of the truth of what happened to her son and whether he did anything wrong subordinate to the personal satisfaction of Ushiromiya Battler and Ange, just because they're more important fictional characters? Is it really a matter of "Well Gohda's mom doesn't exist in the narrative but Battler and Ange do so it's more important to discuss what's moral as relates to them?" That is messed up in my mind.
BRAVO!!! This is truly a very amusing n thought provoking (no sarcasm at all) insight. I laughed out in spite of myself especially the part on irresponsible teenage jerks on the net. I must say on this situation YOUr arguments r very valid (forgive the caps, some deign 'u' as beneath their intellectual station). I actually agree on most of YOUr views, however im by nature a cynical person, thus my equating good=winner. As for some for some basis on that claim, I would say the pacific trial of japanesse military commanders is a good basis esp the philipine commander who was hanged because he defeated mcArthur previously.

To Sherringford, I have always enjoyed the quotes n arguments YOU presented thus far. Perhaps I sounded slightly overbearing but bear in the mind I was making those comments lightly except the part on law, coz i know intention is never proved rather it is implied. If YOU r offended I apologize ofc.

On final note, BRAVO!!! again Renall, that is truly very funny yet seriously insightful. An argument in context seems to be way better at presenting the picture than an argument based on pure statement of values. I applaud u once again.
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Old 2011-01-26, 16:50   Link #21750
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Well, everyone hates him. Which is going to make eternity in the Golden Land suck ass with Kanon over there glaring at him all the time while Natsuhi, like, totally doesn't appreciate his genius (but she saved him, so he's so torn, drama!).
Everyone likes his cooking, though. Now he can spend eternity making delicious meals, and since all their problems evaporate in the Golden Land, no one hates Gohda and he learns to stop being a smug bastard to the younger servants! Hurray!

Quote:
Still, he's a guy who got killed in the incident. Surely somebody wants to know what happened to him. A guy who really, really liked his cooking before he lost his previous job? His landlord? Somebody must be sad for him.
"lol fuck that asshole he never paid rent."

Quote:
Gohda was the youngest employee at the hotel, but the oldest of the applicants at Rokkenjima. I'd guess his age in 1986 about 40. That would put his parents age in 1998 in their 70s, if they were still alive. Plus, there's no reason for them to have roots around Rokkenjima, so they could be anywhere in Japan.
A good point, but you'd think there'd be someone she could contact on the way. I mean, Japan isn't THAT large, and going off track would help through off Kasumi anyway.

Also, Kheve, a question since I know it's bothering Sherry: Is English your first language, or did you learn it later in life?
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Old 2011-01-26, 17:37   Link #21751
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So, I was just speaking with a friend to whom I recommended Umineko loooong ago (and by this, I mean back in the days of EP5) and he just reached EP3. Either way, I found it funny because he reached the same conclusion I did about Beato's dream (the one about the little girl in Kuwadorian) and the flashback with Rosa and Beatrice. Just like me, he didn't think they were the same person. It's funny, because after EP7, I had almost completely forgot about this. But, even then, I cannot associate that girl with Yasu either, because, as far as we know, Yasu was never in Kuwadorian (other than, possibly, by the time she was born) and she was a servant. However, the girl in Beato's dream, whilst we were never told any particular age for her, due to her behaviour, I think it'd be fair to guess she's probably between... say... 5 and 10 years old. In addition, this girl didn't even seem to be treated as a servant, and she spoke of a certain grandfather.

As for why I didn't think that little girl wasn't Beatrice 2, that was due to some reasons. One being that Beato 2 didn't seem to have any idea why she was being called Beatrice. In the flashback we saw when she spoke with Rosa, she said she was supposed to be a witch, but she didn't know anything about that. In addition, Beatrice 2 didn't seem to like being Beatrice and her main interest was to get out of Kuwadorian and the island. On the other hand, the little girl in Beato's dream did know who Beatrice was (i.e. Virgilia - which is even funnier, because I don't recall Yasu thinking of Kumasawa as Beatrice, and I think she always thought of Beatrice as the one in the legend, and later on, some of her imaginary friends (the first one being Gaap) and finally herself), and she did show interest in magic and said she wanted to become the new Beatrice. As a side not, there also seemed to be a cat in that house and I'd find it weird for there being one in the island, if it wasn't a pet. But well, it was probably delivered as a pet for that girl.

Of course, we could see this dream as one huge metaphor. Kumasawa would be the 1st Beatrice since she was the one who taught Yasu about mystery novels and tricks. The little girl taking about this "grandfather" could be a hint about Beatrice's true lineage. The rest, like Kuwadorian's and this girl being the one that was served could have been mere illusions and red herrings.

There are other things that I've mentioned before, which I believe do not make much sense like, if EP1-2 were written by Yasu, then she probably should know about Battler's real mother, since Rudolph's confession was mentioned there. How would she know about that?

I'm wondering if these things mean anything, or if these are plot points R07 just decided to drop.
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Old 2011-01-26, 17:49   Link #21752
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Maybe Rudolf confided about his problems with the servants? Does help to explain something else.

"So... Rudolf. WhAT yoU'RE saYIng IS thAT... YOu Put me tHRough theSE yeArs Of HeLL foR... NOTHing?"
"Uh... well..."
"Who ELse KnEw?"
"Well, y'see..."
"I STronGLY AdVISE you To TELL me."
"I... did discuss it with the others. I asked my siblings, of course, but the people I really reached out to were..."
"Go ON?"
"Well, the servants. It felt refreshing to get their opinions on things. I mean, especially Gohda. He's a really good listener."
"RIGht. SO aNYone On ThiS ISlanD could'VE told ME?"
"...I suppose so..."
"Very well. Rudolf, I strongly advise that you do *exactly* as I say from now on."
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Old 2011-01-26, 19:54   Link #21753
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Was that place Kuwadorian though? Didn't that part say that there where multiple servants? Wouldn't it be hard to have multiple servants that work for a little time in the island going about to a mansion thats suppose to be hidden?

I think my first reaction to that scene was with that girl being a young Jessica for whatever reason but that didn't make much sense either at the time. Probably just a big old red herring or dropped plot point!
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Old 2011-01-26, 20:05   Link #21754
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Or, more likely, it's a portmaneau of different events into a single fantasy. Remember that in Beatrice's magical narrative, she's trying to pass off three people as a single immortal being.
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Old 2011-01-26, 20:19   Link #21755
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Was that place Kuwadorian though? Didn't that part say that there where multiple servants? Wouldn't it be hard to have multiple servants that work for a little time in the island going about to a mansion thats suppose to be hidden?

I think my first reaction to that scene was with that girl being a young Jessica for whatever reason but that didn't make much sense either at the time. Probably just a big old red herring or dropped plot point!
That particular scene was set in a yard which is unquestionably Kuwadorian, and the anime makes it explicitly clear as well. Game files confirm that as well.
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Old 2011-01-26, 20:28   Link #21756
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That particular scene was set in a yard which is unquestionably Kuwadorian, and the anime makes it explicitly clear as well. Game files confirm that as well.
It's true that there are servants that are not supposed to be at Kuwadorian in this scene though. I pointed this out before. I think that's enough to doubt this scene happened as it's said to have happened.

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Or, more likely, it's a portmaneau of different events into a single fantasy.
a portmaneau? what's that?
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Old 2011-01-26, 20:49   Link #21757
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A portmanteau (pronounced /pɔrtˈmæntoʊ/ ( listen), plural: portmanteaus or portmanteaux) or portmanteau word is a blend of two (or more) words or morphemes and their meanings into one new word, usually combining specifically the beginning syllables of one word with the end syllables of another.[1][2][3] In linguistics, a portmanteau is defined as a single morph which represents two or more morphemes.
I typo'd and left out a T, my bad.

And given that it's Umineko, etymological and semantic terms are equivalent to metaphysical constructs at this point. This is a mashup of more than one scene that are mixed into one impossible scene, probably not unlike how in EP6, Battler's personal emotions and problems in the Meta-World are clearly compounded with Kinzo's experiences with the Kuwadorian Beatrice.
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Old 2011-01-26, 23:30   Link #21758
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Spoiler for Kuwadorian:

Oh, i also didn't read EP8. I have the DVD right here and i know that there are free translator progs and tutorials how to do it but i rather wait for the Witch Hunters. I just have more trust in Humans then in automatic translators.
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Old 2011-01-27, 00:12   Link #21759
Kylon99
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But, even then, I cannot associate that girl with Yasu either, because, as far as we know, Yasu was never in Kuwadorian (other than, possibly, by the time she was born) and she was a servant. However, the girl in Beato's dream, whilst we were never told any particular age for her, due to her behaviour, I think it'd be fair to guess she's probably between... say... 5 and 10 years old.
Yah, it might make sense as yet another dream of Yasu. Because if you look at Beatrice-2, she never really wanted the job, it seems. But Beatrice-3, or Yasu, kinda seemed to like it. At least at first.

The story cuts off in EP7 after she became Beatrice in title, and she said that she wanted to go check out Kuwadorian to learn more about her mother/sister. (Hurray for incest.) So, this may have been how she imagined she would've been brought up, especially with Virgilia/Kumasawa as her tutor.

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Oh, i also didn't read EP8. I have the DVD right here and i know that there are free translator progs and tutorials how to do it but i rather wait for the Witch Hunters. I just have more trust in Humans then in automatic translators.
It's great entertainment value though. Who wouldn't find humor in lines such as:

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As for "the thing of young order, is a booby Kinzo?"
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Old 2011-01-27, 02:23   Link #21760
Used Can
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Or the elder sister's clitoris.
Or Ange's huge orgams.

I'm sad I've lost those pics.
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