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Old 2010-04-13, 17:53   Link #21
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Do you mean just in romance shows, or in general? Because...many shounen leads do not have those traits - especially lack of a backbone.
lack of backbone is pretty common in shonen since shonen is usually about a boys journey to becoming a man. So 75% of the time he's a chicken shit sometimes too excessive, but finding the courage in dire situations to man up eventually forming resolution.
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Old 2010-04-13, 21:08   Link #22
Xion Valkyrie
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Indecisiveness is fine if its treated as a character flaw and is something that the character overcomes. In all the shows where people hate on the main character's indecisiveness, it's the case where he NEVER overcomes this flaw. People want plot and character advancement, instead they get episode after episode of filler which mean nothing.
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Old 2010-04-14, 00:28   Link #23
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Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
that is an extreme example. and there are probably not much MC's like him.
there are optimistic alternatives you know...like girls not obsessing over MC to the point of killing the rival girl.
There are not - and for a good reason, since they are not really popular. But then, can you think of any more-optimistic examples of MC's who give in to their hormones and do not end up like him. I can't at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
lack of backbone is pretty common in shonen since shonen is usually about a boys journey to becoming a man. So 75% of the time he's a chicken shit sometimes too excessive, but finding the courage in dire situations to man up eventually forming resolution.
Where are you getting this from? Naruto lacks backbone? Luffy? Ichigo? Edward Elric? Allen Walker? Gon? Goku? Really, lack of back-bone is really un-common for most shounen heroes. Stupidity - definitely, but not cowardice.

Besides, if it is as you said and shounen is about becoming a man, then why do you expect the main character to be a man at the beginning when he's only 13-15 years old. Why do you hate shounen leads so much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Indecisiveness is fine if its treated as a character flaw and is something that the character overcomes. In all the shows where people hate on the main character's indecisiveness, it's the case where he NEVER overcomes this flaw. People want plot and character advancement, instead they get episode after episode of filler which mean nothing.
Unfortunately this is not the case. For instance the main character from Kimi ga Nozomu Eien overcomes his indecisiveness at the end, but people still hate his guts. Also there are cases where there is plot advancement for the character in other areas except in this one particular aspect and people hate the character because of this lack of resolution in just one aspect, even though this is not the main point of the story - again Alto Saotome is one example of that.

Really, I feel like people want the main character to choose a girl at episode 3 and stick with her until the end and to choose their favorite girl. In all other cases, they hate the main character.
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Old 2010-04-14, 00:49   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Really, I feel like people want the main character to choose a girl at episode 3 and stick with her until the end and to choose their favorite girl. In all other cases, they hate the main character.
That will be me. But what is worse that indecisive characters are characters who change their mind after their "decisive" choice.
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Old 2010-04-14, 01:15   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
There are not - and for a good reason, since they are not really popular. But then, can you think of any more-optimistic examples of MC's who give in to their hormones and do not end up like him. I can't at the moment.

Really, I feel like people want the main character to choose a girl at episode 3 and stick with her until the end and to choose their favorite girl. In all other cases, they hate the main character.
Spoiler for zero no tsukaima:

yeah, i would have liked that. example - kare kano. now that was fast plot development...
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Old 2010-04-14, 02:02   Link #26
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It's not a question of being indecisive or not, there's good examples of both (R+V, HSDK) but what matters is how the relationship between the harem leader and his girls evolves. There have been cases of girls just having a crush for no reason (teens!) and others liking the guy for all sorts of tearjerking reasons, and he ends up with the former...or times when ALL of the girls set their eyes on one guy for kicks, and he either chooses none or takes them all <_<
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Old 2010-04-14, 02:18   Link #27
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Good in a harem anime, bad in all others. I don't see this as having many exceptions... I'm sure there are, but none come to mind right away. To me, a character that doesn't know what he/she wants or can't at the very least make decisions when it matters isn't desirable.
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Old 2010-04-14, 03:10   Link #28
Darklord_bg
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
That will be me. But what is worse that indecisive characters are characters who change their mind after their "decisive" choice.
Well, in a show where the primary tension comes from who the main character will end up with there are only two ways to keep that tension - either by making the character choose very late or by making him choose early and then change his mind. Besides, in real life, people change their mind all the time. How many people do you know who get married to their first ever girlfriend and just live happily ever after. Sure, I know a few but the vast majority go through several until they find someone who they want to spend the rest of their life with.

Changing your mind is perfectly normal. Of course, if you change your mind by cheating then that's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
Good in a harem anime, bad in all others. I don't see this as having many exceptions... I'm sure there are, but none come to mind right away. To me, a character that doesn't know what he/she wants or can't at the very least make decisions when it matters isn't desirable.
Interesting...I would think it should be the opposite.

In most harem shows the primary concern of the main character is to pick a girl to be with, so if he doesn't work on that, then he really isn't doing anything.

In non-harem/romance shows, the main character usually has some other primary purpose - like defeat some villain, obtain some object, become the best at something etc. In that case picking a girl should be of secondary or sometimes even trivial importance. So, why should he be hated for not choosing a girl, when he has other more important issues on his mind - Inuyasha is one such character for example.
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Old 2010-04-14, 16:44   Link #29
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Where are you getting this from? Naruto lacks backbone? Luffy? Ichigo? Edward Elric? Allen Walker? Gon? Goku? Really, lack of back-bone is really un-common for most shounen heroes. Stupidity - definitely, but not cowardice.

Besides, if it is as you said and shounen is about becoming a man, then why do you expect the main character to be a man at the beginning when he's only 13-15 years old. Why do you hate shounen leads so much?
Naruto? yeah he was a coward, rewatch the first arc and see how many times he almost pissed himself.

I don't mean it as a whole, I'm merely pointing an archetype that is annoying, these types generally fall under the romantic comedy shonens though.

Like Keitaro from Love Hina, The weak, indecisive, coward who's generally socially inept but has a heart of gold types. I can list tons of manga with characters that start out with this type of persona but slowly changes throughout the series. I'll start out with a small list of a examples:

Ane Doki
The Breaker
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi (although I actually like this one)
GE - Good Ending
Love Hina

Basically anything that involves female companionship.

Just FYI, when I say "to become a man", it's a literary term used for when a story is about a young boy maturing through hardships and etc.

And Shonen age is elementary thru highschool age it's not 13 - 15.
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Old 2011-01-27, 02:31   Link #30
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BEing indecisive is really bad. Try reading Onani MAster Kurosawa. Because the male lead didnt profess his feelings, it turn out that her first love was stolen. THey just ended up as friends..
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Old 2011-01-27, 03:30   Link #31
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^ I think his hobby had something to do with it too. And he did confess in the end but it was not his feelings. XD
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Old 2011-01-27, 03:41   Link #32
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I say as long as they dont go overboard you can only squeeze out indecisiveness for only too long then it just becomes annoying
Keitaro toook so long to confess his feelings...uh..
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Old 2011-01-27, 05:21   Link #33
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In the context of romance and *cringes* harem, the problem lies not in the archetype himself. It lies in HOW the romance and *winces* harem is told. Let me elaborate. Most of the time, the spectator are teased with the question "WHO the protagonist will choose?" and the story is over when the protagonist chooses the girl. Period.

And that is HOW most of the romances, and harems, are structured.

What writers don't seem to realize is that the choice IS the end of the beginning of the journey in life of the protagonist. You can end the story with the choice, on the "They had lots of babies and lived happily ever after" line, sure. But I believe that most of us have reached the point where we want to know what happens AFTER the choice of the wife. How do the lead and his girl deal with job hunting, then the conditions of a work environment and how it takes a toll on the couple? How do they make ends meet? How do they handle the temptations from other women, be it former classmates or "haremette" or workmates, or from other men, former classmates or work partners? What effects the successes and the failures of the couple, former classmates and haremettes have on the couple itself? How do they deal with a friend in need? How do they handle the big success of a former classmate who then rub it on their faces, unintentionally or not? And when pregnancy come, how do they deal with it? I am not talking about abortion because I am assuming that they WILL WANT a baby; I am talking about how it affect their daily life too. For some lame reasons, writers can't understand that the hardships and joys of early adult life can also be a source of inspiration for more compelling stories, that can go well beyond "Oh sick moe girl have fallen sick, quick bring her to the infirmary, oh crap I triggered an event flag!"

This brings me to the indecisiveness of the protagonist. It needs to elaborate on why he is indecisive? Does he want to avoid to hurt the girls? Is he afraid to take the wrong decision?

Also can't the writers show that his indecisiveness affect him OUTSIDE of the choice of the girl? At which point it affect him in social life? How does it make him deal with career and university choice? How does it affect him later when he have to make a choice between the short term solution to a problem or betting on the long run. How do life and his wife finally help him to get over his indecisiveness and make him a better and more decisive person?

Or perhaps you are a sadist who want to see how his indecisiveness cripple him and drown him into a spiral of misery and despair? That's also can make a good story, a cautionary tale about why indecisiveness is a fatal flaw when you let it take over your life and person.

Bottomline, the problems lies not in the stereotype but in how the writers handled the characters and how they viewed the codes of the genre. It lies in their apparent inability to think outside the box, and constant need to cater to the wish fulfillment of the otaku because "oh noes they be angry at me in 2ch because I did not meet their expectations that is SERVING THEM THE SAME RECYCLE SHIT I HAVE SERVED THEM SINCE OVER TWENTY YEARS!!!"

Last edited by Sheba; 2011-01-27 at 05:32.
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Old 2011-01-27, 05:45   Link #34
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^ That is a wonderful take on the subject but I think most writters of such stories are not taking any risks at all. Problems like pregnancy or finding a job means making stories with lots of RESPONSIBILITIES because they are IMPORTANT PROBLEMS. Yet in order to cater the low-tier fans, this must never happen. Indecisive leads simply NEVER take responsibility for anything; they are just frakking around all the time as if their choices will never get them to trouble. That is the core problem here; the authors don't want to make the readers feel anxiety in a genre they consider to be escapism.

What are harems after all if not games and series that tell you "Real life sucks because it is full of serious problems like making money and being responsible in whatever you are doing. Well forget that because in this world nothing is serious, you will never be held accountable for anything." And the way they achieve this is by making everything feel like a joke with zero implications on the characters.

He looks at other women? No problem. He can't reveal his feelings? No problem? He was caught stealing underwear? No problem. NOTHING IS SERIOUS IN A STEREOTYPICAL HAREM WITH SUCH A CHARACTER.

And assuming someone creates a story where a character does deal with all those issues, it will be full of cheating, sex, pregnancies, taxes, bills, poverty, disappointment and lots of other shitz the average harem fan reads or plays in order to NOT BE REMINDED OF ALL THAT.

A manga that somewhat deals with all that is Ressentiment, although it also has its share of fooling around.
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Old 2011-01-27, 05:52   Link #35
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As much as I dislike that series, Desperate Housewives have shown you can deal with those "adult" topics with a fair deal of satire, without going over the top GRIMDARK a la Emile Zola.
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Old 2011-01-27, 06:01   Link #36
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And I guess the nemesis of Desperate Housewives is Sex and the City? XD
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Old 2011-01-31, 19:08   Link #37
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It really depends on the context of the show. An indecisive main character can work great in one setting and can be a complete turn off in another.

I believe the indecisive main works best in, you guessed it, harems. Why? Well, harems, regardless of personal opinions, are made for two things: comedy and fanservice. Obviously, a small army of girls must be introduced to lust after the main character and these girls must get their time in the camera, whether it be to show panty flashes or for character development. If the main character were decisive, and picked a girl right from the beginning, began dating her, and refused the other girl's advances then the anime wouldn't last an episode. If you want to milk the anime for what it's worth than it has to last a while with the eventual 'revalation' episode about who the main wants happening at the end. Thus the indecisive lead works well here.

In other anime, that don't have a harem context, not so much. For example, I would hate to watch an action anime about an indecisive lead (oh wait , I already do). An anime that completely focuses on one person who can't decide whether they want to go down path A or path B and meander about in a show that prides itself on action packed battes is very boring and begins to irritate the viewer. The only reason Magical Madoka is still keeping my interest is that the side characters are interesting and the world is intriguing. If the show was only about indecisive Madoka than I'd drop it faster than a hot potato.
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Old 2011-01-31, 20:23   Link #38
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This is why I liked Haruka from Yosuga no Sora. He doesn't hesitate one bit to become God's gift to women. This is what people would really do in such a ridiculous environment.

But regardless, the indecisive and flat type of character which often experiences negative development will plague anime as long as there is a need to contrive romance in a story where it doesn't belong. You guys suck at writing romance! Stop! Well, but then again I can't just tell people to not want money-- we all do. And romance sells.

We want to see characters grow and react to the events that happen to them. If someone starts out indecisive and reaches some kind of realization, that's fine to me. It could be a positive or negative change. If the person is still the same at the end, then what the hell was the point of the show?

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The only reason Magical Madoka is still keeping my interest is that the side characters are interesting and the world is intriguing. If the show was only about indecisive Madoka than I'd drop it faster than a hot potato.
In the case of Madoka it's actually more practical of her to remain indecisive at this point, given that rushing into a decision has led to really bad things. She's just really mindscrewed at this point.
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Old 2011-02-09, 15:49   Link #39
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good if it leads to doujinshi
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Old 2011-02-09, 16:02   Link #40
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^ They all do
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