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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 48 36.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 46 35.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 27 20.61%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 4.58%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.76%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.76%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-01-27, 14:23   Link #21
Vanish
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Spoiler for u mad?:
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Old 2011-01-27, 14:24   Link #22
panzerfan
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Spoiler for On Sayaka:


@Mentar:
Spoiler for On Madoka:


@zato_1one: I like the direction greatly as well.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2011-01-27 at 15:00.
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Old 2011-01-27, 14:53   Link #23
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Hmm, do we really need to use spoiler tag in spoiler thread?

I just watched the raw. Although, it was expected about what happened to Sayaka but the execution of the aftermath was really well done. It could maintain the dark and creepy atmosphere. Madoka was too fear to become mahou shoujo was made sense. Impressive! I really like the direction of this series.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Yep, 100% on target. And one thing more:

Spoiler for stay away if you haven't watched ep4 yet:
This is very good speculation. The theme of overcoming the fear and becomes the true hero is very refreshing for this genre. At this point, I think that it's quite certain that Madoka will become mahou shoujo in the last part of the series.
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Old 2011-01-27, 16:49   Link #24
Decagon
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Yep, 100% on target. And one thing more:

Spoiler for stay away if you haven't watched ep4 yet:
I'm not sure I can follow this bit. Madoka said she would never forget Homura, but Homura's reaction was shown after Madoka said she would never forget that Homura saved her yesterday. Granted, this is said in the same breath, but if she wanted to react to the first half they would have cut to her hand instead of focusing on Madoka. I think the reaction is more indicative of guilt--either of her own inability to prevent Mami's death, or because of some reason that Homura haters may support.
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Old 2011-01-27, 16:59   Link #25
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I think Homura reaction was a result of Madoka's "I'll never forget about what you have done for me", it was close to "but you already did...", even though it was Homura's will (Homura's reaction to question regarding her own wish). I'm pretty sure Sayaka is already a death flag, her boyfriend was totally not worth her sacrifice and I think it would be better for her if she died fighting a witch, than knowing a real worth of her "beloved", I still hope she will not turn into a witch, but it feels almost solid - "curses are from what witches are born". Kyubei confirmed for evil bastard and I also have bad feeling about new Puella.
Did I mention I love SHAFT?
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Old 2011-01-27, 17:13   Link #26
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Looking back, Kyubey calling in a new MG to fill Mami's place seems odd since Homura is already in the area. Maybe he needs MGs he contracts (and are friendly to him) to do something for him. Kyouko's appearance will bring us the MG vs MG Mami said could happen early on, but in contrast to this witches don't seem to have conflicts with each other. Since Kyubey wasn't with Madoka and Sayaka this time, it seems that Homura is stalking shadowing Madoka and not Kyubey.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:10   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I'm not sure I can follow this bit. Madoka said she would never forget Homura, but Homura's reaction was shown after Madoka said she would never forget that Homura saved her yesterday. Granted, this is said in the same breath, but if she wanted to react to the first half they would have cut to her hand instead of focusing on Madoka.
Seems extremely far-fetched to me. Both parts (that she wouldn't forget Homura-chan, and that she would never forget that she had saved her yesterday) were hurriedly stammered by Madoka while the camera cut over to a waxen face of Homura, devoid of any life or reaction, staring into space, but closing the grip of one hand of hers. There is no indication whatsoever that this (non-)reaction was supposed to indicate her emotions only to the second half, but not to the first.

Quote:
I think the reaction is more indicative of guilt--either of her own inability to prevent Mami's death, or because of some reason that Homura haters may support.
Makes no sense. She's 100% free of guilt concerning Mami's death - she wanted to take over, was immobilized by Mami, and still warned her about the peculiarities of the witch, but was ignored. There's noone else to blame for Mami's death than Mami herself. There has never been any indication of "guilt" after Homura's rescue either.

But even more important is how Homura answered that after the brief pause: That Madoka was way too kind/caring, and that she HAD to let go and forget - because otherwise her pain would only increase. Essentially, she's telling Madoka the same thing she always had: She doesn't want Madoka's eternal gratefulness in her thoughts. She wants the opposite: To be forgotten so that Madoka can get away from this whole messy business (in my reading: That's exactly what she wished for when she removed Madoka from being a MG. It would also serve as an explanation why she did it in the past: Because Madoka's caring personality was suffering as a MG because she could NOT let go and forget in the past either).

No. This is not about personal "guilt" which would be entirely unwarranted in the first place. This is about the past, and Madoka unknowingly poked in an old painful wound, causing Homura to flinch and momentarily tugging at her mask of extreme emotional self-control.

EDIT: Heh. This is why I should wait for the subs before going into bigger detail, it's been getting even more clear when I rewatched it: Right BEFORE Madoka's outburst Homura gave Madoka the old "that's how it is as a Mahou Shoujo, you can't help it, you're going to be forgotten in the end" tune, Madoka remarks that she would definitely not forget Mami. Absolutely not! To which Homura replied that Mami would have been happy knowing this. And that Homura is feeling envious about this.

How much clearer can it possibly get? Homura is envious about Madoka's absolute determination to remember Mami. This is what prompted Madoka's outburst that she'd never forget Homura and what she did for her either. But Homura isn't happy about that, her face utters a lifeless/doubtful "Oh?". Because she knows for a fact that all good intentions notwithstanding, Madoka already HAS forgotten about her before.

Last edited by Mentar; 2011-01-27 at 18:23.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:21   Link #28
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Well, that's it. Without Mami being revived I'm done with paying attention to this show until the end. By which time Mami and Sayaka and ANYONE ELSE (important) who dies over the course of the series had better have been brought back to life, or I will track down this Urobuchii Gen and there will be a reckoning.

...You all can go back to what you were doing, now. I won't bother you anymore.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:26   Link #29
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Makes no sense. She's 100% free of guilt concerning Mami's death - she wanted to take over, was immobilized by Mami, and still warned her about the peculiarities of the witch, but was ignored. There's noone else to blame for Mami's death than Mami herself. There has never been any indication of "guilt" after Homura's rescue either.
I think he meant Homura feels guilt when Madoka said she won't forget when in disguise she did because of Homura herself.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:44   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Seems extremely far-fetched to me. Both parts (that she wouldn't forget Homura-chan, and that she would never forget that she had saved her yesterday) were hurriedly stammered by Madoka while the camera cut over to a waxen face of Homura, devoid of any life or reaction, staring into space, but closing the grip of one hand of hers. There is no indication whatsoever that this (non-)reaction was supposed to indicate her emotions only to the second half, but not to the first.
Again, if they wanted to show the reaction to the first half of the statement they could have cut to her hand clenching and unclenching instead of showing a cut of their legs. Even as Madoka speaks the second part of the line. This would be more in line with how they handled the scene where Madoka and Homura were walking to the Nurse's office in episode one where Madoka prattles on as we watch cuts of Homura's reaction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Makes no sense. She's 100% free of guilt concerning Mami's death - she wanted to take over, was immobilized by Mami, and still warned her about the peculiarities of the witch, but was ignored. There's noone else to blame for Mami's death than Mami herself. There has never been any indication of "guilt" after Homura's rescue either.

/snipped

No. This is not about personal "guilt" which would be entirely unwarranted in the first place. This is about the past, and Madoka unknowingly poked in an old painful wound, causing Homura to flinch and momentarily tugging at her mask of extreme emotional self-control.

Rather than guilt, maybe a range of emotions with frustration or irritation inclusive? Homura makes it clear during their conversation that she has been in the game for a while through the number of expired MGs she's given up counting, and through her fatalism about the obscure threads MGs leave behind when they die. From this conversation I find Homura to resemble a tragic hero who tried to prevent Mami fighting an enemy she couldn't beat, but through her own clumsiness in establishing trust or respect was rejected by someone she tried to save.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
EDIT: Heh. This is why I should wait for the subs before going into bigger detail, it's been getting even more clear when I rewatched it: Right BEFORE Madoka's outburst Homura gave Madoka the old "that's how it is as a Mahou Shoujo, you can't help it, you're going to be forgotten in the end" tune, Madoka remarks that she would definitely not forget Mami. Absolutely not! To which Homura replied that Mami would have been happy knowing this. And that Homura is feeling envious about this.

How much clearer can it possibly get? Homura is envious about Madoka's absolute determination to remember Mami. This is what prompted Madoka's outburst that she'd never forget Homura and what she did for her either. But Homura isn't happy about that, her face utters a lifeless/doubtful "Oh?". Because she knows for a fact that all good intentions notwithstanding, Madoka already HAS forgotten about her before.
To a MG who has resigned herself to believe that MGs fight others just to die unknown, why wouldn't she be happy? I think you've become too grounded in your theory of Madoka being un-MG'd by Homura. Of course she was envious of Mami, but why do you think she knew about Mami's family/relative situation or lack thereof? Homura has obviously been looking into Mami to some degree. Why would she care if she's so focused on Madoka?

Last edited by Decagon; 2011-01-27 at 18:55.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:45   Link #31
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I think he meant Homura feels guilt when Madoka said she won't forget when in disguise she did because of Homura herself.
That's not what he said, no. Reread Decagon's original post.

I'm doubtful about your interpretation too, tbh. Homura explicitly said that she feels _envious_. Not guilty. And that would be a much more natural reaction, if we assume that my theory is correct. Because in this case, Homura would have made a gigantic sacrifice for Madoka's sake, while she knew at the same time that she could never expect any kind of gratitude for it - because the one person she's been doing all this for MUST NOT KNOW about it, so that she can enjoy her family life without being burdened by MG knowledge.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:50   Link #32
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
That's not what he said, no. Reread his Decagon's original post.
Oh well, thats my interpretation =_=+

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I'm doubtful about your interpretation too, tbh. Homura explicitly said that she feels _envious_. Not guilty. And that would be a much more natural reaction, if we assume that my theory is correct. Because in this case, Homura would have made a gigantic sacrifice for Madoka's sake, while she knew at the same time that she could never expect any kind of gratitude for it - because the one person she's been doing all this for MUST NOT KNOW about it, so that she can enjoy her family life without being burdened by MG knowledge.
Thats what I'm saying guilt. It includes envy of course but I give equal or more weight to the guilt because if Madoka now lives a normal life (while ignorant of the truth) Homura herself isn't included on Madoka's life which makes her feel envious.
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Old 2011-01-27, 18:59   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Oh well, thats my interpretation =_=+
Didn't mean to nitpick ... that's perfectly fine then.

Quote:
Thats what I'm saying guiilt. It include envy of course but I give equal or more weight to the guilt because if Madoka now lives a normal life Homura herself isn't included on Madoka's life.
Please explain that to me... why "guilt" of all feelings?

In my theoretical scenario, the Homura of the past cared deeply for Madoka the MG, and she saw that Madoka was suffering due to her open, caring nature. So she decides to essentially take Madoka's burden and become a MG in her stead. As her wish, she chooses "Let Madoka live the life of a normal girl in a loving family, unknowing of the whole MG business".

In doing so, Homura implicitly forfeited any hope for gratitude or companionship. Instead, she'd rather even lose contact to the person dear to her, FOR HER SAKE.

Now explain to me: Why would Homura feel _guilt_ about doing this? Guilt implies wrongdoing. It would rather have been a gold-hearted sacrifice she could be proud of.
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:13   Link #34
Miraluka
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Didn't mean to nitpick ... that's perfectly fine then.
Again, don't worry don't wanna to reread posts D:.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Please explain that to me... why "guilt" of all feelings?

In my theoretical scenario, the Homura of the past cared deeply for Madoka the MG, and she saw that Madoka was suffering due to her open, caring nature. So she decides to essentially take Madoka's burden and become a MG in her stead. As her wish, she chooses "Let Madoka live the life of a normal girl in a loving family, unknowing of the whole MG business".

In doing so, Homura implicitly forfeited any hope for gratitude or companionship. Instead, she'd rather even lose contact to the person dear to her, FOR HER SAKE.

Now explain to me: Why would Homura feel _guilt_ about doing this? Guilt implies wrongdoing. It would rather have been a gold-hearted sacrifice she could be proud of.
Well, in my recently new theorical scenario, ha!, Homura indeed cared deeply for Madoka but as a kouhai to her as a MS in a parallel world situation were Homura's wish caused a tangent line in the course of the events. Like a videogame where you can reset the game but the scenarios and missions are still the same despite its variations of order.

Maybe she commited a wish for others sake, this case Madoka.
This is/was Homura's wish so it applies Homura's own concept about happyness on Madoka.
Yes, she did it for her sake, but she would never receive any thanks or reward from it, then she has no option but to resign to the consequences of her own desire. The resignation leads to the guilt or the dissatisfaction of a desire not thought in detail, mind Sayaka.
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Last edited by Miraluka; 2011-01-27 at 19:24.
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:24   Link #35
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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oh. man, homura's appearing to deeply care for madoka. and i am touched.DX these theories about the probability of her wish for the sake of madoka's happiness are to my liking and i am to approve of them. well, somehow, i finally want this show to end in hope.. and not lead to pure despair. X)

gen, thank you. L0L.

Last edited by BaKaBaKaOtaKu; 2011-01-27 at 19:27. Reason: madoka
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:39   Link #36
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Well, I'm glad those "Homura is obviously evil" theories are getting jossed (hopefully).
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:41   Link #37
Miraluka
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Well, I'm glad those "Homura is obviously evil" theories are getting jossed (hopefully).
I don't think those theories were enough strongs as "Mami is obviously evil" theories were until episode 3.
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:42   Link #38
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I was in the "Mami obviously has mental issues" camp myself =P
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:44   Link #39
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Most of the users thinks Homura only has communication problems .
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Old 2011-01-27, 19:54   Link #40
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Okay, gg were madly fast this evening, so I got to watch ep4 subbed before going to sleep late at night. Wonderful ep again! Lots of insightful clues to be picked up! In fact - so many, that I'm already willing to commit on an ending prognosis.

I'll update my active theories&speculations post in the Spoilers&Speculations thread with explanations tomorrow, so for now in the final minutes only the superbrief end results:

Overarching story theme:

Spoiler:


Ending prognosis:

Spoiler:


Details tomorrow.
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