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Old 2011-01-13, 03:04   Link #2101
roriconfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Yet again more that was left out from the manga (most of this was only hinted in the anime) so I cant argue the anime perspective but I'll shed what I know. Due to genetics seishero (sp?) had nil chance of becoming a shiki, why he would serve them seems self explanatory. He seemed to revere them and wanted to do what he could since he couldn't be one himself. He shot the werewolf because he had been bitten by yuuki and was under his control.

As for the doctor, he started to drown in his hatred for the shiki and did everything he could to see them destroyed, I would go so far as to say his want to see them eradicated even overruled his desire to save people. He even turned a blind eye to what some of his allies were beginning to do. I don't think it was surprising more than his leave of sense finally returning to him and realizing that he should have known it would end up that way.

That's how I feel any way, hoping the manga will shed more light on that.

Its really unfortunate so many details were left out in the anime, having read other sources first, I probably missed a lot of said holes because I had prior knowledge to what it was and so I didn't notice it. Strictly from the anime perspective I cant argue many of your points.

The point I have been trying to stress about the review is, when you write a review, good or bad, people will disagree. In a thread that mostly be perused by fans, most of those people will disagree with a bad review. Further when write a review with your impressions of the show, it is going to leave people an impression of you based on how you write it. Especially if your opinions are very harsh like your own you should be more careful in how you word things (this post of yours is a good example of better language use compared to the first). If you think it sucked and was terrible, then you should write that but do it in a way that doesn't cause a knee-jerk reaction.

Weird example sorry but lets say...

You have a lemonade stand, I throw the cup at the ground and say "your lemonade is *beep* terrible". That's asking for a fight, even if it was true.

Rather I should say (aside form not throwing the cup at the ground, perhaps tossing it to the can to make the point) "This stuff tastes terrible, probably because *problems here*" I am much more likely to spark an intelligent conversation that way, while still getting my point across that it was just bad.

Put simply: Even if you vehemently hate it, sound intelligent about it to provoke more intelligent responses. Hostility will be responded to with hostility.


I've dragged this out long enough, hope I conveyed my point in an intelligible manner, every time I type and retype what I think I seem think something is missing...
Understood. I admit I was very harsh and will not continue recycling the same arguements in this tone.
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Old 2011-01-13, 03:17   Link #2102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
This. Shiki is not a series which tries to take itself too serious. The reason behind it may be very simple. Nothing is always necessary complex.
This is a problem I have in a lot of things, I over-complexify (hehe I made that word up) things too much when the answer is sometimes right in my face. Speaking of which your way of stating the werewolf thing makes a lot more sense, they don't have to follow a "strongest is ruler" mindset, in fact it was never there in the first place, if anything they have more of a seniority system.
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Old 2011-01-13, 04:47   Link #2103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Speaking of which your way of stating the werewolf thing makes a lot more sense, they don't have to follow a "strongest is ruler" mindset, in fact it was never there in the first place, if anything they have more of a seniority system.
Does that mean they follow the elders? Is this stated in the anime? I don't remember.
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Old 2011-01-13, 07:46   Link #2104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
I'm more puzzled because, well, you could be spending your time watching something you actually enjoy instead. It seems a bit masochistic to keep watching something you don't like precisely because you don't like it.
You can't know whether you'll like something unless you watch it... is what I would normally say, but that doesn't really work in this case. I'm just as puzzled as you are. The other day, he started one of his reviews with "I hated it from the very description". Why would you want to waste your time watching a show you know you'll loathe, unless you're a masochist or are getting paid for it? I just don't get it.
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Old 2011-01-13, 14:13   Link #2105
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^ I wanted to write a review; I already said that.

Another thing I completely forgot to mention so far (I blame my not-so-overanalysis) is the fact that this show is supposed to be character-centered yet features brainwashing. Not the propaganda type but the ga-ga-no-free-will type. It completely ruins all importance of one's actions if they are all forced by mind bending and not through personal choise. By extension any story with mind control is bad for me for the same reason (famous example: Code Geass)

This is such an overlook, I need to add it to the review as well. Plus the Interviwew with a Vampire example; it came to me only after talking about it here.
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Old 2011-01-13, 16:23   Link #2106
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Does that mean they follow the elders? Is this stated in the anime? I don't remember.
Wasn't stated in the anime (or anywhere else far as I know), but if you look at it, Sunako is the oldest and the leader, the rest of the kirishiki's lord over the new vampires, then among the new vampires you see the "older" ones leading around the even more recent risen. Kind of like Megumi showing Kaori's father the ropes and explaining everything to him.
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Old 2011-01-13, 17:25   Link #2107
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^ And were do werewolves fit in this strictly Shiki hierarchy? It didn't prevent the newer werewolf from rebeling against his creator and senior either. Your theory is unsupported and even proven non-universal because of that. And if it was an exception, then I always say werewolves were masocists who wanted to be ruled by the weaker shiki as an exception instead of being masters of the cosmos.

Or just call it yet another plot hole. Just like the shiki village masterplan. As if nobody would wonder why everybody is asleep during daytime and people are disappearing by the hundreds or found anemic with lots of bite marks.
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Old 2011-01-13, 18:02   Link #2108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
^ And were do werewolves fit in this strictly Shiki hierarchy? It didn't prevent the newer werewolf from rebeling against his creator and senior either. Your theory is unsupported and even proven non-universal because of that. And if it was an exception, then I always say werewolves were masocists who wanted to be ruled by the weaker shiki as an exception instead of being masters of the cosmos.

Or just call it yet another plot hole. Just like the shiki village masterplan. As if nobody would wonder why everybody is asleep during daytime and people are disappearing by the hundreds or found anemic with lots of bite marks.
Why do they have to want to rule, and again where is stronger/weaker relevance coming in, do the have to want to be "masters of the cosmos"? A better question would be "why join the shiki, when they could also live less dangerously with normal humans" the only problem they would have is the fact they don't seem to age, so they would have to not settle for long in a single area. Which is perhaps why they would be with the shiki? I don't rightly know the answer to that, but I feel your asking the wrong question regarding the werewolves, the whole "strong ruling the weak" doesn't seem to have any relevance in this story, from either end.

Generally the new Shiki are broken in by Tatsumi or another, they are in a corner, confused. Eventually they break down and taste the first blood which is queue for predator instincts, eventually they are taken out, shown what they need to do and eventually, left on their own. They don't revive with these loyalties or systems in place, they are broken into it. The case of werewolves is different since they don't hold the normal restrictions, especially in natsuno's case.

Many people die only being aware of the shiki as they die, Natsuno had known about them long before he was attacked and had already developed a deep hatred for them which is why he rebelled immediately. Coupled with the fact that he couldn't be threatened with the "I'll kill you at daybreak" there wasn't a way to initially control him and envelop him into the "fold". Tatsumi wanted to kill him right away, but Sunako said not to. He had already realized that Natsuno had not risen under favorable (for them) conditions. We don't have any other cases to compare with though, as the only other two werewolves have already been part long since and we don't know the situations regarding their rising.

It was stated many times that the people suspected it but were in denial, all the same when it was fully revealed they so quickly fell into it as well. Also, not everyone see's the bite marks, that's mainly the hospital which is suffering people going missing or quitting constantly. The shiki controlled the flow of information, the most people gone in daylight is weird at best, but no average person is going to scream "omg vampires!" it also fits into the above bite of "denial". As far after they had taken over the town and masked that were any deaths at all, this isn't just some rural nowhere town its OUT THERE. It seemed over 90% of the people also had their entire families inside the town making outside influence minimal, which is much more controllable for them. Even if the town was plain strange to the infrequent visitors, I doubt the police would get a phone call saying suspect vampires.

Even with the above though, there ARE several holes in the vampires plans, but that as well could be in design form a story perspective. The kirishiki's were desperate for a place to call home, among their kind with no hiding or skulking. It is very possible the plan borne from them would only work for a short while even after success, considering the large amount of inconsistencies it would eventually create. Just because they wanted it and planned it, doesn't mean it had to work. Even if they did win they could easily discover that their desire to have their own community in the end, was never possible in the first place. It was just a desperate attempt to imitate normal human society.
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Old 2011-01-18, 19:21   Link #2109
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Just in case it hasn't been mentioned already, the first mini OST has shown up.
...

It's wonderful, albeit too short! Eau de vie is the song I was mostly anticipating.

Overall very similar to his work for Jigoku shoujo, especially not hearing it within the anime it nearly sounds like Jigoku Shoujo outtakes. Yasuharu is probably my fave anime soundtrack composer.

Anyone know if there really is another one coming and when it's out?

Edit: Ok I was just checking the official website and every DVD/BD release except for the 5th has a CD with it! Did the show even have this much music? o.o

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-01-18 at 20:20. Reason: You can't link to downloads of OSTs (forum rule 1.1)
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Old 2011-01-18, 20:03   Link #2110
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Originally Posted by stadtkind View Post
Did the show even have this much music? o.o
Yep. I easily counted over 20 pieces used in the series.
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Old 2011-01-18, 22:35   Link #2111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
^ And were do werewolves fit in this strictly Shiki hierarchy? It didn't prevent the newer werewolf from rebeling against his creator and senior either. Your theory is unsupported and even proven non-universal because of that. And if it was an exception, then I always say werewolves were masocists who wanted to be ruled by the weaker shiki as an exception instead of being masters of the cosmos.

Or just call it yet another plot hole. Just like the shiki village masterplan. As if nobody would wonder why everybody is asleep during daytime and people are disappearing by the hundreds or found anemic with lots of bite marks.
I think the anime explain that during a conversation between Senshin and Tatsumi. You might not agree with it, but they definitely explain it. Senshin has the exact same question as you (werewolf is much stronger than Shiki, why are they serving Sunako?) and Tatsumi gives an explanation. It seems you completely miss it (along with the reason Senshiro shoot werewolf female - also shown clearly in the anime). My only conclusion is that you didn't pay attention when you watch the anime. Don't act like an expert acting all high and mighty if you don't even pay attention! It is OK for you not to like the show, but if you want to say the show is fill with plothole...etc, at least watch it 3 times before making such accusation.

As of the Shiki village masterplan, well the anime didn't spell it out but it is easy to put all the dots together. Shiki is ruled in a dictatorship monarchy organization which Sunako is the absolute ruler. When Sunako want to do something, Tatsumi and company fulfills her wish. They might give her advises, but if Sunako reject it they will simply follow Sunako's wishes. It is not that different for all the absolute monarchy in the past and humans lives thousands of years in that system.
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Old 2011-01-19, 00:27   Link #2112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
...Or just call it yet another plot hole. Just like the shiki village masterplan. As if nobody would wonder why everybody is asleep during daytime and people are disappearing by the hundreds or found anemic with lots of bite marks.
Those might or might not be plot holes. They could be holes in the shikis' plan. Having lived this strange life for a couple of hundred years, Sunako is certainly a bit mad. As well as desperate.

Or there might be a way the plan could work that we have not thought of. Perhaps they don't actually have to kill, and can control and farm enough compliant normal humans for a population of a few dozen shiki/jinrou. Perhaps they can get away with not killing too unusual a number of humans in the surrounding villages. Perhaps they can make do with some animal blood. Perhaps something else. This doesn't all have to be explained at this point. Or at any point, for me.

These points may have been discussed before, but I haven't read all of your posts and the replies. Sorry, just as you take so much pleasure in tearing this show apart, I take very little pleasure in that. For me, whether there are plot holes or not, it was one of the 3-4 top shows of the year. I've never seen anything quite like it, in pacing, build-up, atmosphere, characters, et al.
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Old 2011-01-22, 07:47   Link #2113
SJCrew
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Okay, I finally finished the series just now. As for it being a pretty good show...I want to say it isn't, but I think it's worth pointing out that the every episode prior to 17 felt like a waste of time. Everyone I cared about died for nothing, most of the good characters deconstructed into hollow shells of nothingness, and the humans feel like even greater monsters than the Shiki by the end. Fuck the villagers, I'm glad their shitty village burned down to the ground.

But! I will not say Shiki was a bad anime or a waste of time. I was this close to saying "wow, what the fudge did I just watch" until Seishin stepped in and saved the entire damn thing in one fell swoop. He saved Sunako from a horrific death after one of the most hilariously pompous arrogant I've heard about life, period. And it was like, what, a few lines? Anyway, though, I'm glad they ended the anime the way they did, and that the only two characters I was anywhere close to liking by the end survived. I'm actually obliged to say Seishin stole the show every time he showed up, but that'd mostly be bias on my part because most of his actions and reactions mirror what I would have said or done in the very situation.

Also, a couple of things I just wanted to point out randomly: I hated Toshio for what he did to his wife. No feelings, no mercy, no explanation...I really just flat out hated the guy every single episode after that. His passionate doctor aspect died right in that episode, and never comes back, not even for a second. I've never seen an anime where someone completely loses their humanity the way he did. He fought really hard to save that village, but he ended up losing so much more...including the village.

Overall, Shiki's pacing is really slow and takes a really long time for the unfolding events to pay off. When it does, it just doesn't hit you hard enough to ignore the lull of the early episodes. :/
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Old 2011-01-28, 05:39   Link #2114
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The second mini soundtrack has the track i've been waiting for since it was first used. 'Epitaph' is it's title, and i'd be shocked if anyone here didn't recognized it.
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Old 2011-01-28, 18:50   Link #2115
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I'm only at episode 8 and damn! There are not enough words to describe my annoyance with Natsumo's mother, I mean come on!
That weird child whom they never met was going barsek right before them without being nice or apologizing even once! How on earth could Natsumu's mother let in someone as rude as her? Where is the common sence?
Being nice is good but it is going over board...

Now they both will be eaten, good job mother -_-


Ep 14
Wow... I understand that she is Shiki and has to be stopped and that experiments are needed to find the solution as well as the fact that she is the easiest target to experiment on since no one else knows her... but that still was very cruel! Doctor sure can become a killing machine, to turtore his own wife like that... just wow...

Ep 15
Oh come on! If you want people to believe then show the freaking video! Why did you film it in the first place?!
Wow... has this guy never held or seen funerals before? 0_o I would have killed him...
And wouldn't people notice that the coffin is empty? After all it will become lighter!

Ep 18
Damn, I don't know how to feel now...
Natsumo's father sure became a creep... looks like our nurse will be the first one not to go the killing path, I'm very proud of her. She is very strong willed.
About time villagers found out about vampires but I must say that Chizuru being the target made me feel bad... so far she didn't really do anything bad... Megumi herself asked for it and doesn't seem to mind her new life, don't remember Chizuru randomly attacking people and the whole flashback and scene at the festival where she was casually talking to people and enjoying herself didn't make me feel better about whole villagers attack... if it was someone else like Megumi and that thin threak, I would be cheering all the way!

Ok, I have finished the series...
So how exactrly is Akira alive? Natsumo the hero saved him?
Actually there are a lot of things that I would like to ask...

Well... villagers sure went brutal there, especially when they started to kill innocent people just out of suspicion. Was happy to see Megumi finally die... I didn't agree with her death in first episode despite disliking her from the start but she really happened to be a cruel and ungreatful person... so what if villagers don't agree with your morals? It is not the reason to kill! Just do something youself and leave the village, GEEZ!

I actually sympathize with Shiki at some point... yes they are the killers but as Sunako pointed out, they do need to eat as everyone else. It is not their fault that their food happened to be humans. We also kill animals to eat them so at some point we humans are not that much better...
The only thing I dissagree with is that they really could feed on blood donors, not real people but their blood which is stored in packages in fridges. I really didn't understand why they couldn't do it. Like that no one would be at fault.

Also a bit sad that Kaori never faced Megumi...

But over all I will give this series 9 for the fact that it was unpredictable in many cases, had gotten whole bottle of emotions from me and that I had finished it in 2 days
It was a long time since I got so hooked with anime, lately I couldn't find anything worthy.
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Old 2011-02-06, 12:21   Link #2116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320
The only thing I dissagree with is that they really could feed on blood donors, not real people but their blood which is stored in packages in fridges. I really didn't understand why they couldn't do it. Like that no one would be at fault.
The Shiki instinctively want to kill humans, not just feed on them. Quite possibly you can resist killing, but Sunako and her underlings would certainly not allow that.
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Old 2011-02-08, 11:32   Link #2117
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Finally listening to the OSTs and theyre all I wanted and more <3 Yasukaru Takanashi did a wonderful job.

Quote:
'Epitaph' is it's title, and i'd be shocked if anyone here didn't recognized it.
By far my fave so far but everything is perfect.
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Old 2011-02-15, 19:32   Link #2118
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IMHO this is the best noitamina can achieve with all the restrictions it puts on itself (like accesibility to salarymen, and even worse office-ladies)

Shiki, had a torturous build up (very slow pace, crappy characer designs, tons of red herring, no service, even yaoi would be better than nothing BUT the final third of the show paid of.

I don't think that going into detail about the plot, characters, and philosophical perspective of the writer makes any sense now, since 100+ pages of posts should have covered these

What I want to mention though is that BUCK-TICK, composed two of their best singles for the show ... I think they have not done anything this good since Fleurs du Mal days

PS@roriconfan: I eagerly await your review, though you should know that I will probably disagree ... still, they're fun to read ... πρώην συμπολίτη
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Old 2011-02-16, 07:32   Link #2119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
PS@roriconfan: I eagerly await your review, though you should know that I will probably disagree ... still, they're fun to read ... πρώην συμπολίτη
Check the previous pages dammit
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Old 2011-03-29, 21:52   Link #2120
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Funimation announced that Shiki will get a DVD and Blu-ray release. It's currently scheduled for Spring 2012. Official website
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