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Old 2011-01-30, 17:21   Link #15921
Justin_Brett
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If the Wolkenritter can get arrested for being the servants of an artifact that continually regenerates and forces them to fight, I don't see why the Hucks should be able to 'mind their own business' killing people under similar circumstances.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:22   Link #15922
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
In the end, like I've said a few manga chapters back, for me it's a matter of presentation. The Huckebein may have a sad freudian excuse story, but we as the readers have yet to see it, even one bit. And you can say all you want about the possibilities, but unless that tragic backstory(TM) gets to be shown soon, the hearts of pretty much the majority of viewers would already be cold, no sympathy left to share.
Also reminds me of Miyo Takano from Higurashi no Naku Koro ni(also called "When They Cry"). she was such a dick and commited such horribled things that by the time her sad backstory came into play in the TV series, it's too late for almost any viewer to gather any simpathy for her, that was a lost cause.

To be fair, only SOME of the Huckebein have showed unpleasant levels of dickery by this point(i think one of the reasons Arnage is the most symphatetic now is because she seems to be a bit more sensible about their condition, her annoy ovr S6's efforts to take Tohma and how she insist abouttaking him with her apparently conceal her corncern for the boy). But time is flowing so i hope these guys get their flashbacks ready.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:26   Link #15923
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Just because you don't agree with said morals doesn't make them any less legitimate.
Only good and evil is totally moral category. They do have they morals... and we totally can label that set of morals as evil from our standpoint. If people don't have right to judge others morals then we don't need courts - as law is also nothing more than codified set of morals that society deems necessary and set of punishments for act that breach them and as result considered evil. You can advocate lawless and moral-less society where everybody do what they want... but I don't think you'll find many followers.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:30   Link #15924
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I'm not advocating lawlessness, as laws do serve a purpose of maintaining order, but they're still inherently self serving and something humans decide. The Hucks aren't lawless, they just have a different set of laws from the Bureau.

"By our morals, what you're doing is wrong!"

"Well, by our morals, what we're doing is okay!"

So, who's right?
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:31   Link #15925
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On another note, the whole Wolkenritter comparison falls to pieces for me because I do consider their actions in A's to be evil. Attacking a nine year old kid for your own selfish reasons? Counts in my book.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:33   Link #15926
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
So, who's right?
From whose standpoint? Most criminals do think they have right to steal, kill and rape - but we do judge them wrong from our standpoint. The same here - we judge them from our standpoint. And why shouldn't we?
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:35   Link #15927
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Maybe if they were killing said nine-year old girl, but that was hardly the case.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:36   Link #15928
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On another note, the whole Wolkenritter comparison falls to pieces for me because I do consider their actions in A's to be evil. Attacking a nine year old kid for your own selfish reasons? Counts in my book.
Yeah. They barely avoided being evil themselves while doing evil acts.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Maybe if they were killing said nine-year old girl, but that was hardly the case.
What they did WAS evil. Just not 'ritters themselves, they understood that what they do is wrong but couldn't go against circumstances, so they just were weak willed... and stupid - they should have started and ended with those giant animals.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:37   Link #15929
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Because it leads to conflict, like the debate we have here. Both sides blame the other. As I pointed out, in other cultures, rape is not illegal for a man. Sure, we may judge it evil, but if you approach a culture and go, "you're bad and evil! Repent and follow our ways!" they aren't going to respond favorably.

To a degree, I feel RF6's approach here is evil. They didn't come out and say, "Look, you guys are killing people. We understand you're infected with something, and we'd like to help. If you can at least stand down, perhaps we can talk and come to some sort of understanding."

That's Nanoha's tried-and-true approach with both Fate and the Wolkenritter. I'm a bit disappointed it wasn't used here.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:38   Link #15930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On another note, the whole Wolkenritter comparison falls to pieces for me because I do consider their actions in A's to be evil. Attacking a nine year old kid for your own selfish reasons? Counts in my book.
Well, that's THE biggest reason I didn't like A's so much.

Well, that and Signum's whole "LOLtanking" of Fate's attacks instead of dodging.

EVERY SINGLE PART OF ME WAS SCREAMING "DODGE!"

Look where that got her in Force.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:40   Link #15931
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
To a degree, I feel RF6's approach here is evil. They didn't come out and say, "Look, you guys are killing people. We understand you're infected with something, and we'd like to help. If you can at least stand down, perhaps we can talk and come to some sort of understanding."

That's Nanoha's tried-and-true approach with both Fate and the Wolkenritter. I'm a bit disappointed it wasn't used here.
'ritters didn't actually killed anybody that time around. Same with Fate. So Nanoha was able to preach without consequences. Hucks DO kill and they already have large bodycount to prove it, so every chance wasted to pro-actively stop them is more people dead. Totally different situation. Also 'ritters and Fate morals were unknown, Hucks' one... not so.

PS. Also they couldn't offer that to them anyway as Huck's pretty much worked on they death sentence already.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:42   Link #15932
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Edit: By the standards I'm hearing, the Wolkenritter are evil. They killed, possibly more than the Hucks ever did. They don't have an excuse, either, since it is shown very deliberately that they can decide to go against their master's wishes. So everyone they killed was a result of a choice they made.

Signum is evil.
For said master's well being anthey also can't go explicity against it's wishes, if Hayate finded out about the truth sooner and she actually ordered them to stay by her side they can't be done anything. They can twist your words and interst somewhat but they can't confront your power as the master(if that were the case numerous masters should end betrayed as soon as they pulled shit on them like many times happened on their past lives).

But you know what? Yes. Signum was EVIL back there and she's fully councsicious about it, she ackowledge right on the spot that what they're doing is NOT GOOD in any fashion, they're throwing their honor as knights and are betraying a pact they do with their master. Thus yes, they're evil and Signum feels so bad about it that when things are done she's totally willing to surrender to justice. Sadly neither of the Huckebein have showed that level of determination and councsiousness so far.

I probably start thinking better of them the moment they show to take or at least feel some responsibility for the lives they're taking. they don't trust the TSAB? they can't label them as "justice"? Fine. They don't necessary need to surrender to them to try to make amends, the can for example trying to retribute people affected by their crimes, they can try to make a big good like resolving a big problem or defeat a bigger evil to try to amend for what they're done. Probably they know of a place or authority they consider more worthy of their redemption than the TSAB anc can go there to pay for their crimes once they get cured. But nope, so far the story only show us that they kill and don't give a crap about anyone besides themselves. But Kaijo is also right in that there's still some more time on this ride so probably things will get clearer.

At the fun side of things, i think the Huckebein have invincibility because of the "backstory weakness" clause. Once they're starting to reveal their past they will be allowed to be defeated(kind of reminds me of the Asgard Saga of Saint Seiya, the Asgardian Wrrior gods were unbeatable and mope the floor each one on theor respective battles ...until the point they take a pause to tell their backstory then they get "surprisingly" defeated xDU).
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:44   Link #15933
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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
From whose standpoint? Most criminals do think they have right to steal, kill and rape - but we do judge them wrong from our standpoint. The same here - we judge them from our standpoint. And why shouldn't we?
It's precisely a standpoint thing. Again it's a matter of what says one stand point is more right than another?

And criminals such as those live within the society. I won't argue that a legitimately established governing body doesn't have the right to uphold its laws on the members of its own society.

The Huckebein, however, exists outside of the Bureau's society. "You ostrasize us and hunt us down like dogs. Why the hell should we play by your rules?"
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:48   Link #15934
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Also reminds me of Miyo Takano from Higurashi no Naku Koro ni(also called "When They Cry"). she was such a dick and commited such horribled things that by the time her sad backstory came into play in the TV series, it's too late for almost any viewer to gather any simpathy for her, that was a lost cause.
.
You don't even need to go out of the nanoverse to find such an example, Precia was one too. Series AND MOVIE failed hard to makes me feel sympathetic for her.

And the solving of the Huckie problem boiling down to Nanoha's sitcom father talk would fucking disappoint me, I am expecting the franchise and the writer behind it to be a little more ambitious and inventive than that. If Tsuzuki end the Huckie crisis with that shit plus pink beam of friendship, fuck that shit, and I can give Reckoner the green cookie, 'Yo, you are right!"
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:49   Link #15935
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Just to get off of Force for a moment.

Whoever made this post on /m/ is probably my favorite Nanoha fan of all time right now.

Quote:
Vivid looks like a fluff piece on the surface because of the art style, but I think that there is more actual world building in the chapters that have been released so far than ANY of the completed seasons, audio dramas and side stories to date.

Vivid isn't just about Vivio, it's a story about the whole world Vivio lives in. You learn about how magical children learn to use their powers. You learn about how Council Space is organized and law enforcement is handled. You see how the Bureau takes care of its own.

We've learned a HUGE amount about.. just the sort of people who ruled the Belkan Empire, the predecessor nation to Council Space.

It's also very well composed as a story. Very dense in terms of visuals. They need to get this guy to do ALL their comics, really.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:49   Link #15936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al103 View Post
'ritters didn't actually killed anybody that time around. Same with Fate. So Nanoha was able to preach without consequences. Hucks DO kill and they already have large bodycount to prove it, so every chance wasted to pro-actively stop them is more people dead. Totally different situation.

PS. Also they couldn't offer that to them anyway as Huck's pretty much worked on they death sentence already.
You're not thinking like the Bureau (and the Wolkenritter killed people, too). Remember, the Bureau's main goal is to rehabilitate people, not kill them. They only imprisoned Jail, Uno, and Quattro, despite them causing some death and a LOT of destruction.

You rehabilitate people and you solve the problem of them re-offending. Find a place for them in society. Sure, the Hucks may have to spend some time in captivity (Lutecia and the Numbers did). But you always give your enemy the option. Back them into a corner, and they'll just fight harder.

Anyway, my viewpoint is that killing isn't that much different than torturing. In fact, killing may be more human. Torture can leave someone mentally scarred. I'm a bit surprised that they glossed over any mental repercussions Nanoha might have had, but then again, she had grown into a little soldier by then. Had they left the Wolkenritter alone, they would have gone off to drain more Bureau people, or perhaps civilians with linker cores. That kind of assault can leave nightmares for someone.

And as was pointed out, the Wolkenritter attacked the Bureau, whereas the Hucks try to avoid them. If anything, that gives the Bureau more ground to do something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
For said master's well being anthey also can't go explicity against it's wishes, if Hayate finded out about the truth sooner and she actually ordered them to stay by her side they can't be done anything.
Actually, Hayate did specifically order Signum not to, and in fact, made her promise not to collect linker cores. Signum went against that. While the official record might have glossed over some things, the real story is that each member of the Wolkenritter made a choice to assault and torture people.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:49   Link #15937
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
The Huckebein, however, exists outside of the Bureau's society. "You ostrasize us and hunt us down like dogs. Why the hell should we play by your rules?"
They kill people inside Bureau's society, they abduct people there too... why the hell NOT should Bureau judge them? Also I'm not talking about Bureau, I'm talking about us, readers - we can (and should) judge them by our moral code to see if they deeds are evil and if they are evil themselves. Now that is natural thing that most people do when they watch/hear/read some piece of history or fiction.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:49   Link #15938
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Can you at least agree that rushing to judgment, knee-jerking, and jumping to conclusions before hearing the entire story, is a somewhat bad way to do things?
Ah, but just like you consider rushing to hating someone before hearing the story is bad, others believe that rushing to defend someone even though they have done nothing to deserve sympathy is bad.

You say that "OMG they killed nuns, I hate them" is jumping to conclusions.

Others say that "OMG they kill people, they must have a tragic backstory" is jumping to conclusions.

And right now both sides have taken their stance, and no amount of argument between them can sway each other. The only thing that can change them is what the story presents to us.

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That's Nanoha's tried-and-true approach with both Fate and the Wolkenritter. I'm a bit disappointed it wasn't used here.
Because the last time she did that the answer was a hammer to the face?

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Well, that and Signum's whole "LOLtanking" of Fate's attacks instead of dodging.

Look where that got her in Force.
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:54   Link #15939
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Ah, but just like you consider rushing to hating someone before hearing the story is bad, others believe that rushing to defend someone even though they have done nothing to deserve sympathy is bad.

You say that "OMG they killed nuns, I hate them" is jumping to conclusions.

Others say that "OMG they kill people, they must have a tragic backstory" is jumping to conclusions.
Actually, my viewpoint is, "It doesn't matter if someone sees them as evil or not; what matters is hearing the full story first. Can we hold off judgment, guys? Because there is a lot of different ways that may make us not condemn them so much."

Quote:
Because the last time she did that the answer was a hammer to the face?
And before that, got a Scythe to the neck. She still repeated it later. =)
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Old 2011-01-30, 17:58   Link #15940
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You're not thinking like the Bureau (and the Wolkenritter killed people, too). Remember, the Bureau's main goal is to rehabilitate people, not kill them. They only imprisoned Jail, Uno, and Quattro, despite them causing some death and a LOT of destruction.
Wolkenritter killed people in previous iterations, not last one where all they targets were alive so the were not immediate threat. You may note that any attempts to argue with Jail and cyborgs who killed/attempted to kill people right now were only after they were captured. Also Bureau's main goal is NOT rehabilitate anyone, it's to protect law abiding citizens of member planets. Also they only imprisoned Jail, Uno, Tre and Quattro because they had very big excuse of being artificially created and indoctrinated to they tasks, even if it gone wayward in case of Jail. Despite death requirement Hucks did they moral choices on they own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You rehabilitate people and you solve the problem of them re-offending. Find a place for them in society. Sure, the Hucks may have to spend some time in captivity (Lutecia and the Numbers did). But you always give your enemy the option. Back them into a corner, and they'll just fight harder.
You do not usually rehabilitate people with death sentence/life imprisonment.

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And as was pointed out, the Wolkenritter attacked the Bureau, whereas the Hucks try to avoid them. If anything, that gives the Bureau more ground to do something.
Attacking ANYBODY on Bureau territory = attacking Bureau. So Hucks do NOT avoid Bureau, they just avoid ones that can actually shoot back.
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