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Old 2011-01-30, 21:15   Link #201
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
It's pretty explicit that the 'losing energy' thing is more 'darkness takes root into the magical girl egg' btw.

After all, mami didn't take energy fro mthe grief seed- she gave the darkness from her egg to it.

It's much more likely that the more time pass or the more you use magic and the more tainted you are.
Nothing is mentioning about darkening due to time passing, only darkening due to magic use.

Given that, the solution is obvious: simply don't use magic unless you really, really have to. Get your wish, and continue to live your life. If another MG comes along... "Great! Knock yourself out killing witches; saves me the trouble!"

Kyube even referred to the grief seeds as "getting paid" which implies it's a bonus. It makes it sound like having magic powers (which would be pretty sweet and I can see some MG's loving) is the sole reason to keep fighting.

Now, if it's revealed that the soul gem will darken anyway regardless, and something bad happens to you when it happens, that's a different story. I've just been trying to brainstorm reasons why an MG would keep fighting if fighting is so horrible.
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:27   Link #202
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
Dunno if this theory has been posted before, but could it be that maintaining the contract wish is what gradually drains the Soul Gem's energy? IIRC, Homura (or Mami) mentioned that it is necessary to fight witches in order to keep the wish working; is it because MGs must loot Grief Seeds in order to replenish their constantly fading Soul Gem?
I don't believe that their soul gem powers their wishes. What if Madoka wished for cake? I speculate that the soul gem is their life force given shape by their wish. They then draw on their own life force ('fighting with their very lives' as Mami puts in in episode 2), that they need to keep recharged by fighting witches or die.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
You're thinking backwards. If Kyubey is revealed to be the antagonist or Sayaka becomes a witch, it's because the writer aimed for that from the start (or at least it should be that way) and so he's already prepared to answer whatever question arise.

Anyway, Tenjo_Utena said this outcome would mess the logic of the show. IMO, that's just not true. We're at episode 4. There's plenty of time to answer questions and even to bring up new ones.
I liked what Triple_R had to say in response to my post. My point was that, IMO, the less complicated the plot is the more interesting Madoka Magica will be.

Anyone who watches this show must notice how creepy Kyube is. Is anyone going to be impressed if it turns out he's had an evil agenda this whole time? Anyone?

I think it will be far more chilling if it turns out he really has been trying to save the world by throwing the lives of young girls into hell.
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:38   Link #203
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I'm not one who sees Kyube as evil just yet, although I admit a certain minor level of creepiness. It could be just in the presentation, perhaps as a major misdirection on the part of the writers. "See! He seems good on the surface, but he unsettles you a little, so maybe he's evil!" and then later "Psyche! Haha, you really thought he was evil, didn't you?"

And I don't have a problem with him using girls, if the plot calls for it. Many series call children to be the heroes, because they possess something adults don't. So as long as a reason is given, I don't have an issue with it. I would be interested in hearing a reason, though, because it is a good question:

Why girls?

Why not boys? I know a lot of boys who would gladly take up the mantle of a superhero; at least more than girls would. Perhaps because Kyube found out boys didn't wanna wear a skirt? ;p
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Old 2011-01-30, 22:03   Link #204
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i've always thought that kyubey being evil is quite obvious so i have to consider that he's actually good. you see, he appears very suspicious,and i must say,gen really wants us to think that way. and then when're settled with that,he slaps in our faces that he is not.and that'd be a nice twist.just think how j.k. rowling did with severus snape in HP.. xDD
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:03   Link #205
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

Kyube even referred to the grief seeds as "getting paid" which implies it's a bonus. It makes it sound like having magic powers (which would be pretty sweet and I can see some MG's loving) is the sole reason to keep fighting.
No, getting paid implies you are doing your job. You know, the one you had the wish as prepayment.

Another possibility is that if your egg gets dark, your wish gets undone.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:31   Link #206
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Being able to disregard your obligation to fight witches after getting your wish granted seems like cheating.
Which is why I've always thought there should be an "incentive" to fulfill said obligation, such as the Soul Gem keeping your wish in force.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:43   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Being able to disregard your obligation to fight witches after getting your wish granted seems like cheating.
Which is why I've always thought there should be an "incentive" to fulfill said obligation, such as the Soul Gem keeping your wish in force.
I'm surprised at the number of people who forgot that it is already stated on the official site that MG's are forced to fight witches, question is what is the enforcing mechanism. I'm going with the darkness build up overtime theory.

The "using up energy" theory has no credibility as the transfer process is clearly darkness->GS. Mami says otherwise either because
1) She simply didn't notice
2) She realized that QB wouldn't tell her so just went with it.
3) Lied because she wanted companions.
Given her back story I'm going with 3 because she was clearly conflicted about getting the girls to join.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:49   Link #208
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Im actually more inclined to believe that your wish is tied to your own energu being tied to your own seed. This is probably the most realistic condition that forces one to keep fighting as opposed to say QB warning that he can deny tje wish anytime should you choose to stop your end of the deal.
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Old 2011-01-31, 09:45   Link #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
I'm surprised at the number of people who forgot that it is already stated on the official site that MG's are forced to fight witches, question is what is the enforcing mechanism.
What's wrong with Jimmy C's idea for the enforcing mechanism? It makes sense to me.


Quote:
I'm going with the darkness build up overtime theory.

The "using up energy" theory has no credibility as the transfer process is clearly darkness->GS.
I disagree. Ruling out a theory based solely on what seems to happen during the transfer process really seems like jumping to conclusions to me, to be frank. Especially when Mami herself says otherwise.


Anyway, I like Jimmy C's idea the best. If the Magical Girl doesn't keep fighting witches, then her wish is lost. So, in a sense, a Magical Girl is forced to fight witches in order to maintain her wish.
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Old 2011-01-31, 10:18   Link #210
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree. Ruling out a theory based solely on what seems to happen during the transfer process really seems like jumping to conclusions to me, to be frank. Especially when Mami herself says otherwise.
I would not take Mami's words at face value (her motives were not pure), you go by what was shown not what was said when it comes to these things.
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Old 2011-01-31, 10:39   Link #211
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Anyway, I like Jimmy C's idea the best. If the Magical Girl doesn't keep fighting witches, then her wish is lost. So, in a sense, a Magical Girl is forced to fight witches in order to maintain her wish.
So if I wish for cake?
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Old 2011-01-31, 11:35   Link #212
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What's wrong with Jimmy C's idea for the enforcing mechanism? It makes sense to me.
If you were forced to fight to maintain your wish, wouldn't it be obvious to Homura? Would she not simply tell them? Exposure of the main attraction of being a mahou shoujo as a fraud would pretty much destroy any desire to become one. Since Homura's desire is to prevent the creation, she would have exposed it immediately.
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Old 2011-01-31, 11:44   Link #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
I would not take Mami's words at face value (her motives were not pure),
What's "unpure" about wanting friends and allies?


Quote:
...you go by what was shown not what was said when it comes to these things.
What was shown could have been nothing more than flubbed or misdirected animation. It would hardly be the first time.


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Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
So if I wish for cake?
Maybe you end up getting a severe stomach ache, and/or end up regurgitating the cake, if you don't keep fighting the witches.


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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
If you were forced to fight to maintain your wish, wouldn't it be obvious to Homura? Would she not simply tell them? Exposure of the main attraction of being a mahou shoujo as a fraud would pretty much destroy any desire to become one. Since Homura's desire is to prevent the creation, she would have exposed it immediately.
... I'm startled that someone is actually making this argument.

Because it begs the following question: If Magical Girls can become Witches, then why isn't Homura telling Madoka that?

In my opinion, that's a much bigger potential turn-off to being a magical girl than having to continue to fight witches in order to maintain one's wish.

The simple fact is this: Homura isn't the most expressive person around, and isn't telling Madoka everything. That may indeed be a significant character flaw of her's.
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Old 2011-01-31, 12:27   Link #214
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
If you were forced to fight to maintain your wish, wouldn't it be obvious to Homura? Would she not simply tell them?
But she did tell Madoka, "We all fight for our own wishes" in ep4 after meeting her outside Mami's apartment building. That's been my support for this speculation.
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:21   Link #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But she did tell Madoka, "We all fight for our own wishes" in ep4 after meeting her outside Mami's apartment building. That's been my support for this speculation.
While your theory makes a certain amount of sense, it doesn't quite address the "what if I wish for cake?" scenario that Redwing brought up. If I wished for cake, that I later fed to a friend, and then decide to stop fighting wishes... how is that enforced?

Or, in Sayaka's case, her wish was to heal the guy's hand. If he does what some feel, and "dumps" her, or does something stupid and gets himself killed... how do you enforce Sayaka to keep fighting? Who cares if the wish is undone? "Go ahead, take my wish and my powers away; I don't want to risk my life fighting anymore, anyway."

I agree there has to be some measure of enforcement or coercion, but I'm at a loss to know what it is. And I'm really fearful the show will never address it.
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:40   Link #216
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I agree there has to be some measure of enforcement or coercion, but I'm at a loss to know what it is
That's why I'm more of a fan of the "MG become witches if their soul gem isn't purified" , not wanting to be a witch could be enough of a reason for the girls to keep fighting,and if their wish somehow doesn't turn out too good maybe they'll just lose the will to fight and accept being a witch.
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:43   Link #217
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If I wished for cake, that I later fed to a friend, and then decide to stop fighting wishes... how is that enforced?
Or, in Sayaka's case, her wish was to heal the guy's hand. If he does what some feel, and "dumps" her, or does something stupid and gets himself killed... how do you enforce Sayaka to keep fighting? Who cares if the wish is undone? "Go ahead, take my wish and my powers away; I don't want to risk my life fighting anymore, anyway."
I don't have a complete answer for that. But most of the time when someone offers you a wish, you'd ask for something you want dearly, that you couldn't get any other way, right? That you'd fight to keep.
Anyway, can you think of another reason for Homura to say "for our wishes" instead of "because of our wishes"? I'd like to hear it.
One more possibility is that a darkened Soul Gem might not turn you into a witch, but it could kill you, and it's still being used to enforce your wish. I have to say, I don't rate this one highly.
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:03   Link #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I don't have a complete answer for that. But most of the time when someone offers you a wish, you'd ask for something you want dearly, that you couldn't get any other way, right? That you'd fight to keep.
Anyway, can you think of another reason for Homura to say "for our wishes" instead of "because of our wishes"? I'd like to hear it.
One more possibility is that a darkened Soul Gem might not turn you into a witch, but it could kill you, and it's still being used to enforce your wish. I have to say, I don't rate this one highly.
Could be a translation thing. Translating isn't an exact science, after all.

And like I said, even if you are right about fighting and maintaining a soul gem to maintain the wish, what if Sayaka decides not to? It sounds like, whatever happens, Sayaka will keep it up anyway, but it represents a situation where an MG could say "No more fighting for me" and there would be no real consequences because the wish affected someone else.

Hell, if Kamijou died, there would technically be no need for Sayaka to keep fighting unless she wanted to. There has to be MG's who are in that position, or has come up before.

The only thing I can see, is for a soul gem to darken on it's own naturally, and something bad happening when it does. But the show hasn't told us that happens; only that a soul gem darkens with magic use.

Of course, it would be an interesting spin if MG's could become witches once their soul gems are completely dark, but that begs the question of why MG's were formed in the first place, unless witches can be created in other ways.

Even if Kyube were neutral and honest in his desire to create MG's to kill witches, it would be a delicate balance; too many MG's, and there aren't enough witches to go around, and thus more MG's would become witches when their soul gem darkens over time. Too few, and the witches have their way.

And only the right wish can end the situation once and for all.
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:14   Link #219
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... I'm startled that someone is actually making this argument.

Because it begs the following question: If Magical Girls can become Witches, then why isn't Homura telling Madoka that?

In my opinion, that's a much bigger potential turn-off to being a magical girl than having to continue to fight witches in order to maintain one's wish.

The simple fact is this: Homura isn't the most expressive person around, and isn't telling Madoka everything. That may indeed be a significant character flaw of her's.
It could simply be a side effect of her wish if this is a world reset/time loop OR it could be simply that Mahou Shoujo do not become witches OR it could be that Homura knows Madoka's personality and exposing that particular part would have the reverse effect of driving her to it.

I hope you are prepared to be startled even more when your idea is exposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But she did tell Madoka, "We all fight for our own wishes" in ep4 after meeting her outside Mami's apartment building. That's been my support for this speculation.
You missed her initial sentence, "Its not for others but for our own wishes that we fight." This is pointing to the previous chapters on wishes for yourself rather than for others aka they are sacrificing and putting themselves for wha they had wished for.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-01 at 02:22. Reason: The "EDIT" button is your friend...
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:21   Link #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
It could simply be a side effect of her wish if this is a world reset/time loop OR it could be simply that Mahou Shoujo do not become witches OR it could be that Homura knows Madoka's personality and exposing that particular part would have the reverse effect of driving her to it.

I hope you are prepared to be startled even more when your idea is exposed.
One thought here... if wishes are powerful enough to be able to do world resets and time loops, then it really does just take one wish to solve all problems: "I wish witches never existed." Bam, world reset.

So, ironically, world resets and time loops due to wishes, would destroy the very foundation of the world and the series, and thus wouldn't be possible. If so, it's a big plot hole as to why no MG ever had the thought to wish for something like this.
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