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Old 2011-01-29, 11:42   Link #941
Polarem
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Originally Posted by GundamAce View Post
Hey, I just noticed your conversation. If you need an on-call translator, I'll volunteer to do it. Of course, I can't work with you as a full time translator due to my commitment to translating Never7, but I'm willing to work with you as a consultant of sorts if you want to.
That'd be awesome, thanks man! Will give you a buzz when we start cleaning in earnest.

What's the best way to contact you?

Last edited by Polarem; 2011-01-29 at 12:11.
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Old 2011-01-29, 12:57   Link #942
GundamAce
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Just PM me, and I'll try to check every day. But if you need to contact me frequently, I can just give you my e-mail.
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Old 2011-01-30, 03:06   Link #943
Xcandescent
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Ah sorry, that was a pretty vague description. From my experience in RealLive, the rap options get updated each time you dub Sunohara's tape, AND finish listening to him complain in class (no saving required). It worked for me when I returned to title screen when he said "You really know how to get on someone's nerve, don't you?!" (reading that again... should that be "nerves"?). Restarting before he finishes complaining does not trigger an update.

The first time round, the update enables the option to "say something fitting"; subsequent updates give you a different dumb rap when you choose "say something fitting" (I don't know what happens if you choose "Forget it, this is stupid", but it probably doesn't update).
I checked my latest SEEN.txt build from Leopard, and it does in fact behave like that. (There are 7 responses, which are cycled through in order, cycling back to the first after the last response is played.) Checking the .ke and .utf files for the scenario confirm that there's a counter which is incremented at the points you indicated, and there are 3 files in the SAVEDATA directory which are updated on every play, regardless of whether you actually save -- which means that the game engine has persistent global variables, which it updates and uses across plays.

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Mine still threw an exception.
Weird. Well, no point using block comments, then.

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
That sounds like a messy job alright... is it something you'd take up? I might start digging into the rlc code on Monday (it's probably good coding experience, although I have no idea how long it'll take). BTW, where did you find Shizuka's diagnosis?
So ... Shizuka's theory was in the bug he posted to SVN. I assumed it was an educated guess ... but then I noticed this bit in section 6.1.2 of the rldev manual:

Quote:
Limitations of dynamic formatting

Certain RealLive features are not available in rlBabel-formatted text. In particular, the \ruby control code is not supported at present.

Proportional text formatting has not been extended to cover all cases. In particular, text displayed by select_s(), objOfText(), grpTextout(), and related functions still uses the fixed advance width system built into RealLive. Support for these functions is planned for a future release.
So there you have it, straight from the author's mouth: the feature ain't there at all. It's really unclear why that's the case -- what makes those functions any harder to hook rlBabel into than the windows it already uses?

As a sidenote, the manual also says this:

Quote:
The select() family of functions are the primary interface between player and game in a standard visual-novel-style work. They present a set of options. The return value is a zero-based integer indicating the option selected, or a negative value indicating an error.

The difference between the three variants is the manner in which the options are presented:

* select() displays them in the normal text window; unlike the AVG32 equivalent, it appears not to break them into columns if there are too many options to fit in the window, so use with care.
* select_s() displays them as a series of buttons, formatted according to the settings of the #SELBTN variables in gameexe.ini. This is the command used to display Fūko's “donna itazura wo?” selections in Clannad.
* select_w() displays them in a separate selection window, which automatically expands to fit the number of options.
If I'm not mistaken, ordinary select() also has rlBabel properly hooked into it (as evidenced by the proper formatting of choices in the normal text window). However, what's more interesting is the mention of #SELBTN. While currently undocumented, it's likely that their functions parallel their #WINDOW equivalents. Hacking those variables won't magically give you proportional text, but they might be useful for positioning the text within the buttons (or repositioning the buttons themselves). You should give it a try with the Fuuko menus.

And no: hacking rlc to add the appropriate bytecode to select_s() calls is something way beyond my current skill set. That would require actually learning enough OCaml to make sense of the parser and the bytecode modules, and knowing what bytecode is necessary to call rlBabel properly. The guy who writes rlvm would probably know the bytecodes.

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Ok, I fixed 2 of the rlc compiler warnings, and unearthed a few more Japanese lines (see Wiki project page), which accounts for the rest of the warnings.
Those untranslated lines are so random (WHY are they untranslated?) ... but there is code to print them in the .ke files, so I guess we have to assume they show up at some point? (Or are they never called?) Also strange that 3 of those lines are numbered <9999>; were they hacked in manually?

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There was no warning for untranslated #character directives though, like the "Jet Man" in SEEN0422. "Jet Saito" seems to allude to some kind of in-joke, but none of the English discussions I read really knew what it's about...
In theory (according to the rldev manual), #character directives don't do a damn thing in RealLive. However, it's kind of sloppy to leave them untranslated like that, so I went ahead and hacked in the temp name (Water Jet Man) already being used in the translation.

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Also found some translations for the graphical text!
Incidentally, all the text linked there is said aloud by characters during the course of the anime. I would check the anime subs for additional guidance on how to interpret those lines (esp. since all of those are crucial lines to the story).

-XCN-
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Old 2011-01-30, 05:47   Link #944
Khu
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Jet Saito is an easter egg in Tomoyo's route, you might wanna you know...keep that in there. lol.
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Old 2011-01-31, 01:15   Link #945
Xcandescent
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Jet Saito is an easter egg in Tomoyo's route, you might wanna you know...keep that in there. lol.
Oh, it's not going anywhere; there's just some confusion as to what it's all about. I haven't proofread Tomoyo's route yet, but there's a character in SEEN0422.utf whose name has been rough translated as "Water Jet Man" -- because no one knows what the translation is SUPPOSED to be. Shortly thereafter, Kinny left a comment implying that character was 'the elusive "Jet Saito"'. I'm guessing that name will have to be fixed later, but this is something the editors should've figured out already.

-XCN-
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Old 2011-01-31, 02:02   Link #946
Khu
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No no, I'm talking about the actual NAME Jet Saito - probably better to just leave that in there rather than try to translate it. Easier to recognise for those that are hunting for the easter eggs.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:33   Link #947
lonewolf179
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Sorry, but I have a quick question regarding the newest seen.txt file, r78. I know I did everything correctly regarding installing the files, but whenever I try to play, anything the protagonist tries to say stays blank. everyone else's dialogue works perfectly fine, and anything the protagonist is thinking is displayed fine, it's just that whenever it's something he is supposed to say out loud, the text box remains blank until I click and then it moves on to the next line. If anyone could help me out with this it would be really appreciated.
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Old 2011-01-31, 11:28   Link #948
Polarem
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Ha, so it turns out that Key likes to slip characters named "Saito" into their works for laughs. There's Jet Saito in Clannad, Bush Saito in Kanon, Mask Z Saito in Little Busters! and Fish Saito in Angel Beats! ...apparently there's a Hop Saito out there as well but I couldn't find him/her.

The thing is I'm not sure if the jet ski dude IS Jet Saito... When he appears, his name is displayed as 「ジェット男」 (romaji: Jetto otoko, literally "Jet Male"/"Jet Man"). After he leaves, Sunohara talks about a junior SCHOOLMATE called 「ジェット斉藤」 (romaji: Jetto Saitō), kinda like a guy named Saito who has the title "Jet" (like "Rocket Dan", I suppose).

Saito is a reasonably common surname, so it has no translation anyway. For the label, I'm inclined to use "Jet ski man" instead of "Water jet man" as "jet ski" refers to the whole vehicle but "water jet" refers to the propulsion system only.

Anyway, our Saito isn't tied to Tomoyo's route only; the key to summoning him is to ditch Sunohara every chance you get (one possible route out of two is in this walkthrough).

Last edited by Polarem; 2011-01-31 at 12:39. Reason: Unsure about the Mask translation
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Old 2011-01-31, 12:35   Link #949
Polarem
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Originally Posted by lonewolf179 View Post
Sorry, but I have a quick question regarding the newest seen.txt file, r78. I know I did everything correctly regarding installing the files, but whenever I try to play, anything the protagonist tries to say stays blank. everyone else's dialogue works perfectly fine, and anything the protagonist is thinking is displayed fine, it's just that whenever it's something he is supposed to say out loud, the text box remains blank until I click and then it moves on to the next line. If anyone could help me out with this it would be really appreciated.
Hmm, I haven't seen that before, so I can only work on hunches... Let's try anyway: Does the name "Tomoya" show up in the little name-box, or is it blank too? Your name variable might be malfunctioning. Try going into the Name menu and choose "Reset to default" [bottom left] --> "Accept" [middle] --> "Yes" [Blue left].

Have you used any of the older patches before?

Last edited by Polarem; 2011-01-31 at 12:46.
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:48   Link #950
lonewolf179
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Hmm, I haven't seen that before, so I can only work on hunches... Let's try anyway: Does the name "Tomoya" show up in the little name-box, or is it blank too? Your name variable might be malfunctioning. Try going into the Name menu and choose "Reset to default" [bottom left] --> "Accept" [middle] --> "Yes" [Blue left].

Have you used any of the older patches before?

No, it doesn't. I reset the name, but unfortunately it didn't help. It's weird because everything else seems to be working fine. I only noticed because I was using a different patch before (not sure of the creator, but it wasn't very well made, which is why I switched) and the text with his name displayed fine, but when I switched to this patch, every line that would display his name (so whenever he would speak out loud) turns up blank. it doesn't affect gameplay or anything, it's almost as if the text is there, but it's just invisible or something.

I tried switching to some of the earlier patches, I think I tried the r45 and r46 versions. I thought it might be something to do with rlvm, since i'm using a mac, but nobody else seems to have this problem.

Thank you very much for your time, I assure you it is much appreciated.
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Old 2011-01-31, 18:09   Link #951
Xcandescent
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
The thing is I'm not sure if the jet ski dude IS Jet Saito... When he appears, his name is displayed as 「ジェット男」 (romaji: Jetto otoko, literally "Jet Male"/"Jet Man"). After he leaves, Sunohara talks about a junior SCHOOLMATE called 「ジェット斉藤」 (romaji: Jetto Saitō), kinda like a guy named Saito who has the title "Jet" (like "Rocket Dan", I suppose).
I noticed that, but the English translation is really unclear, and makes it sound like Jet Saito is the same person as Jet Man, even though the Japanese names are clearly different. ("The junior that I'm bothering at the moment is named Jet Saito" is said 4 lines after talking to Jet Man.)

I guess we could use "Jet Ski Man" or "Jet Ski Guy" for the moment, but it would be nice to get some clarification about that whole scene. If Jet Ski Guy and Jet Saito are different characters, then it's probably some sort of pun -- but it doesn't read as one in English. It's just confusing.

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Originally Posted by lonewolf179 View Post
No, it doesn't. I reset the name, but unfortunately it didn't help. It's weird because everything else seems to be working fine. I only noticed because I was using a different patch before (not sure of the creator, but it wasn't very well made, which is why I switched)

I tried switching to some of the earlier patches, I think I tried the r45 and r46 versions. I thought it might be something to do with rlvm, since i'm using a mac, but nobody else seems to have this problem.
rlvm is ... quirky, at best.

In general, if you drop a new SEEN.txt over your old one, you need to either rename or nuke your entire SAVEFILE directory. The RealLive engine has persistent global variables which it saves to certain files in that directory, even if you never actually save a game. Since savefiles generally don't work across versions, it wouldn't surprise me if those state files are giving you problems. (It's actually something I've run into myself, during testing.)

-XCN-
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Old 2011-02-01, 01:03   Link #952
Polarem
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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
So ... Shizuka's theory was in the bug he posted to SVN.
D'oh... that's what happens when I skim recklessly :P


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
So there you have it, straight from the author's mouth: the feature ain't there at all. It's really unclear why that's the case -- what makes those functions any harder to hook rlBabel into than the windows it already uses?
No idea... maybe because RealLive used different rendering functions to paint pixels for different window types? Or maybe rlBabel isn't called when the text rendering is hard-coded into the Kepago files like Shizuka said; I'll see if Kepago contains any clues.

Also, I believe that the last two untranslated lines in SEEN9071 are for the Tomoya + Tomoyo tag team against Sunohara, which is displayed in the same rounded window as the Fuuko pranks. Shizuka reasoned that hard-coding without .utf files made the compiler overlook the rlBabel call. I wonder SEEN9071.utf triggers rlBabel... (detective music starts playing)


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
If I'm not mistaken, ordinary select() also has rlBabel properly hooked into it (as evidenced by the proper formatting of choices in the normal text window). However, what's more interesting is the mention of #SELBTN. While currently undocumented, it's likely that their functions parallel their #WINDOW equivalents. Hacking those variables won't magically give you proportional text, but they might be useful for positioning the text within the buttons (or repositioning the buttons themselves). You should give it a try with the Fuuko menus.
Your deductions sound reasonable. Time to play with variables! (it's a good thing that bad software instructions no longer cause hardware damage)


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
And no: hacking rlc to add the appropriate bytecode to select_s() calls is something way beyond my current skill set. That would require actually learning enough OCaml to make sense of the parser and the bytecode modules, and knowing what bytecode is necessary to call rlBabel properly. The guy who writes rlvm would probably know the bytecodes.
Fair enough. I think we can put that on the backseat for now... (I got nowhere myself)


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
Those untranslated lines are so random (WHY are they untranslated?) ... but there is code to print them in the .ke files, so I guess we have to assume they show up at some point? (Or are they never called?) Also strange that 3 of those lines are numbered <9999>; were they hacked in manually?
Hmm... SEEN4421.ke has contained #res<9999> since the beginning of the SVN (2008-12-08), but SEEN4421.utf had <9999> added on 2008-12-20. The latter update was labelled "Merge functional FV branch". The file history isn't available before 2008-12-08, but it sounds like #res<9999> was inserted into .ke (breaking the code) shortly before the SVN import, then the system was fixed later by updating .utf.

Problem: The Voice Patch .ke files don't have the full set of #res<9999> in the Full Voice version. Since they share the same .utf files, it looks like any VP build will have missing text.


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
Incidentally, all the text linked there is said aloud by characters during the course of the anime.
An excuse to re-watch Clannad!


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
If Jet Ski Guy and Jet Saito are different characters, then it's probably some sort of pun -- but it doesn't read as one in English. It's just confusing.
My best guess is that "Jet Man" was a bit of nonsensical amusement, and an excuse/link for Sunohara bring up the name "Jet Saito"... but while the Japs can get away with saying "Jet Man", it doesn't work in English.
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Old 2011-02-01, 01:12   Link #953
Polarem
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@lonewolfYou're most welcome

I guess I shouldn't have assumed that you're using RealLive... the name menu actually does absolutely nothing on rlvm.

Like XCN said, the easiest way to guarantee zero compatibility issues is to delete old data, as it's too hard to keep track of what's compatible and what's not. I believe your rlvm save files are under /Users/[username]/.rlvm/KEY_CLANNAD_FV ...backup KEY_CLANNAD_FV if you want to preserve your old progress, and delete everything inside it. See if that helps.

Did you download gameexe_ini_r43.rar along with SEENr78.txt?
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Old 2011-02-01, 01:48   Link #954
Xcandescent
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Also, I believe that the last two untranslated lines in SEEN9071 are for the Tomoya + Tomoyo tag team against Sunohara, which is displayed in the same rounded window as the Fuuko pranks. Shizuka reasoned that hard-coding without .utf files made the compiler overlook the rlBabel call.
Well, we know the rounded window is what you get from calling select_s(), which doesn't have rlBabel hooked into it due to Haeleth not implementing it. I'd need to try the --single-file option in kprl to see what the equivalent Kepago calls are for displaying normal resource strings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Problem: The Voice Patch .ke files don't have the full set of #res<9999> in the Full Voice version. Since they share the same .utf files, it looks like any VP build will have missing text.
Honestly, I haven't touched the original/VP files at all, as I own the Full Voice version, and not the earlier release. You're probably right that missing code means missing text in VP, but I have no way to test it.

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My best guess is that "Jet Man" was a bit of nonsensical amusement, and an excuse/link for Sunohara bring up the name "Jet Saito"... but while the Japs can get away with saying "Jet Man", it doesn't work in English.
Yeah; that's something I'll want a translator to make a second pass at ... after the remaining image/system text and misc. stuff gets translated. I guess we can use "Jet Ski Man" for now ...

-XCN-
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Old 2011-02-01, 07:54   Link #955
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
@lonewolfYou're most welcome

I guess I shouldn't have assumed that you're using RealLive... the name menu actually does absolutely nothing on rlvm.

Like XCN said, the easiest way to guarantee zero compatibility issues is to delete old data, as it's too hard to keep track of what's compatible and what's not. I believe your rlvm save files are under /Users/[username]/.rlvm/KEY_CLANNAD_FV ...backup KEY_CLANNAD_FV if you want to preserve your old progress, and delete everything inside it. See if that helps.

Did you download gameexe_ini_r43.rar along with SEENr78.txt?

oh. I didn't even notice it doesn't work. D:

after I tried replacing the seen.txt file the first few times, I deleted everything and re-copyed all the files from the FV .iso, then re-applied seen.txt r78 and the correct gameexe_ini , but it still didn't fix the problem. I guess this is what I get for buying a Mac. xD
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Old 2011-02-01, 12:14   Link #956
Polarem
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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
Also, I believe that the last two untranslated lines in SEEN9071 are for the Tomoya + Tomoyo tag team against Sunohara, which is displayed in the same rounded window as the Fuuko pranks. Shizuka reasoned that hard-coding without .utf files made the compiler overlook the rlBabel call. I wonder SEEN9071.utf triggers rlBabel... (detective music starts playing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
Well, we know the rounded window is what you get from calling select_s(), which doesn't have rlBabel hooked into it due to Haeleth not implementing it. I'd need to try the --single-file option in kprl to see what the equivalent Kepago calls are for displaying normal resource strings.
Ok, putting English text into SEEN9071 indeed gave me a text banner instead of an empty banner during Tomoyo combos, but the text still wasn't formatted properly. Conclusion: Having the strings in .utf vs .ke files has no effect.

The Tomoyo banner doesn't use select_s(), but objOfText(), which is also unsupported by rlBabel. In the rlbabel source code itself, there's a set of functions specifically for processing arguments from Kepago's select(). Looks like we need to write similar functions to process select_s() and objOfText() (there's no grpTextOut() in Clannad).

Other places that use objOfText() are the save/load labels (SEEN9042), Fuuko Master Achievement announcements (SEEN9070), and parts of Kappei's route (SEEN9071).

The Tomoyo banner and the Fuuko announcements (not prank choices) also use the rounded-window, but Kappei's doesn't -- the text is just bitmapped and painted over the background (which is unusual -- all other routes use pre-rendered bitmaps in .g00 files)
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Old 2011-02-01, 12:17   Link #957
Polarem
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@lonewolf179: Unlike RealLive, the save data of rlvm is stored separately from the other game files. Try looking in /Users/[username]/.rlvm/KEY_CLANNAD_FV (you may need to tell Finder to show hidden items)



Speaking of Kappei, I encountered some missing text in that route -- the voice plays, but there's no corresponding text, so "Tomoya" is displayed instead. If anyone comes across those, could you record the line immediately before (or after), and report it here? (Edit: Silly me, I was using an OLD seen.txt)

Last edited by Polarem; 2011-02-16 at 11:48.
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:45   Link #958
lonewolf179
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
@lonewolf179: Unlike RealLive, the save data of rlvm is stored separately from the other game files. Try looking in /Users/[username]/.rlvm/KEY_CLANNAD_FV (you may need to tell Finder to show hidden items)

I deleted the save files, and it displays all of the text properly now. Again, thank you so much. Now I get to spend all of my free time playing Clannad.

Last edited by lonewolf179; 2011-02-01 at 18:01.
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Old 2011-02-04, 00:09   Link #959
Xcandescent
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FYI: Looks like a new version of rlvm (0.10) has shipped. Haven't tried it yet.

-XCN-
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Old 2011-02-04, 03:06   Link #960
Polarem
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Typo

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Originally Posted by Polarem View Post
In the rlbabel source code itself, there's a set of functions specifically for processing arguments from Kepago's select(). Looks like we need to write similar functions to process select_s() and objOfText() (there's no grpTextOut() in Clannad).
I've been digging around the source codes...

One huge source of confusion was that the name "Textout" refers to:
1) An older lineation library that is incompatible with rlBabel
2) The set of Western text formatting functions WITHIN rlBabel

Good news: It looks like we don't need to modify the compiler (no need to learn OCaml!). Updating its headers should be enough -- assign ID numbers for our new functions, and insert a small wrapper to call rlbabel.dll (passing the relevant ID and data) instead of RealLive's native functions. (http://subversion.assembla.com/svn/c...dev/trunk/lib/rlBabel.kh)

The rlBabel source code is at http://subversion.assembla.com/svn/c...rlBabel/trunk/. The ID numbers from rlBabel.kh are mapped to enums in textout.h and select.h; the DLL entrypoint of interest is reallive_dll_func_call() in rlbabel.cpp, which accepts 5 arguments -- the 1st is the ID number, the rest are for us to decide.

reallive_dll_func_call() passes the arguments to TextoutCall() to handle main text, or SelectCall() to handle selections. So, we want to implement our own ObjOfTextCall() and Select_SCall(). The former is easier, I think.


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Originally Posted by Xcandescent View Post
FYI: Looks like a new version of rlvm (0.10) has shipped. Haven't tried it yet.
If you install it, can you tell me if you notice any performance drops? My 0.09 was slow enough (being run from within VirtualBox), but updating seemed to make the save/load menus nightmarish :-S

Last edited by Polarem; 2011-02-04 at 10:56.
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