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Old 2011-01-30, 20:44   Link #21
momobunny
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This series isn't entirely about taking up challenges with love and faith. Mami's death was a demonstration of that, you also need to constantly think and be aware of what's going on. Sayaka made a hasty decision in the heat of the moment and can never go back on it, Madoka on the other hand is still capable of weighing her options. She realized that her resolve isn't strong enough to truly become a magical girl and changed her mind, hence her apologetic attitude in episode 4. She technically did nothing wrong, she just feels guilty for not being able to do what she said she would. Completely understandable given the circumstances. Sayaka on the other hand will regret her choice and it's pretty much foreshadowed that she will regret it soon, unlike Madoka who didn't want to make the rest of her life miserable for the sake of a promise that seemed serious at the time, Sayaka risked her life for a guy who so far seems to be indifferent towards her despite being childhood friends. There's more to the story than that, however one can't say that Sayaka's decision was the best one.

Also, no this is not Sailor Moon. Usagi faced her fears because she had to, she had to fight Beryl after watching each of her friends die rather unpleasant deaths. That much is true, but the circumstances and events framing that were completely different. Madoka is not Usagi, she is not Nanoha, she is not Tsukikage Yuri, she is Kaname Madoka. It is not fair to her character to judge and compare her to other characters who are part of a similar yet different genres after episode 4. It's not fair to oversimplify things. It's not fair to attack her character after she hasn't even been given a chance to develop. I do understand that while in my opinion it's not fair to do this so soon, it's not yours and you are free to do what you want as will everybody else. I just think it'd be a good idea to give her a chance and to stop comparing her character to others so soon because of one or two plot points that either weren't brought up or that you didn't like.
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Old 2011-01-30, 20:53   Link #22
Dark Wing
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Sailor Moon had her reasons for fighting (Because she going to die if she didn't if I remember)

Shinji had his reasons for fighting (Because if he didn't want his dick of a father would send an injured Rei back out to the front lines)

Madoka guess what doesn't have one! (not as of yet mind you) but lets for the sake of argument say she does make a contract she would have to put her life on the line doing a thankless job that knows no end with zero reward beside one wish. Now one would think it'd be pretty dumb to jump into that unless it was one hell of a wish and as of right now as fare as Madoka is concerned no wish on earth, heaven, or hell seems worth the risk.

And as for Sayaka the only real reason she made her wish was to heal her boyfriend and gaining the magical powers was just to further sugar coat the deal but mark my words shes going to see that spending time with him may be harder now that she has to take time out of her day to slay giant monster.
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:10   Link #23
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Originally Posted by momobunny View Post
Sayaka on the other hand will regret her choice and it's pretty much foreshadowed that she will regret it soon, unlike Madoka who didn't want to make the rest of her life miserable for the sake of a promise that seemed serious at the time, Sayaka risked her life for a guy who so far seems to be indifferent towards her despite being childhood friends. There's more to the story than that, however one can't say that Sayaka's decision was the best one.
Great. So you downplay Sayaka in order to make Madoka look good? Seriously? Can't you give the girl some credit? We don't know whether she will regret it or not. And we don't know what will happen in the future; in fact, that's irrelevant. What is relevant, is that Sayaka knew just as much as Madoka, and decided to risk her life to help Kamijou. I don't care whether you see Sayaka as making a selfish wish or not; that act took guts.

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Also, no this is not Sailor Moon. Usagi faced her fears because she had to, she had to fight Beryl after watching each of her friends die rather unpleasant deaths.
Actually, she didn't *need* to. In fact, she was telling her friends (that remained) that they should leave and come back later when they were stronger. She could have just run away, and indeed, she was seriously considering it.

I'm really puzzled on how we aren't supposed to judge Madoka at all. We apparently can't compare one 14 year old magical girl who watched multiple friends die, to another 14 year old possible magical girl who watched a friend die. That's strange, but okay.

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a thankless job that knows no end with zero reward beside one wish.
I'd say a wish is a hell of a reward. And if there is a reward, then it's not "zero" is it? Perhaps you don't find it worthwhile. I'd lay odds if someone offered you super powers to fight evil and protect people *and* gave you a wish of practically anything you could want, you'd be all over it.

And even if you wouldn't be up for it, I know a lot of people here would. Hell, I would. Homura may have her reasons for trying to drive Madoka out of it, and the writers may be trying to tell us how horrible it is; but so far, it doesn't seem like a bad deal. Equivalent exchange, as Kyube said.

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And as for Sayaka the only real reason she made her wish was to heal her boyfriend and gaining the magical powers was just to further sugar coat the deal but mark my words shes going to see that spending time with him may be harder now that she has to take time out of her day to slay giant monster.
I've seen this repeated, too, and I dealt with it above. "Um, yeah, well, Sayaka is gonna regret it!" Yeah, so?

I'll say it again: Regardless of how it ends up for her, and regardless of her reasons... and you know, for the sake of argument, let's assume she made her wish for purely selfish reasons, and let's assume that it does end horribly for her.

She STILL made the choice to risk her life, knowing it was a "thankless job with zero reward" and that she'd have to fight for the rest of her life, risking death and being forgotten.

That takes balls in my book. Big, stainless steel ones.

But this isn't a Sayaka thread. This is a Madoka thread. A thread that's getting good discussion now.

Edit to add some more: I'll repeat that Madoka having flaws is a GOOD thing. It means she can grow out of them into a better person. But if you try to excuse them, you simply take away from the moment when Madoka grows out of it. She becomes your standard magical girl that whines about fighting and wishes she could live a normal life. When that type of MG finally fights, it doesn't bring about any "Wow, she finally grew up!" feeling. More of a "Man, it's about time; wish she'd cut out the whining and just do it!"

Last edited by Kaijo; 2011-01-30 at 21:21. Reason: Edited out some of the comparisons, since it's a Madoka thread
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:20   Link #24
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Yeah I'm not going to entertain you with this, valid points were brought up by others anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong, but from my point of view you certainly aren't right. ^^;
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:26   Link #25
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Yeah I'm not going to entertain you with this, valid points were brought up by others anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong, but from my point of view you certainly aren't right. ^^;
Well, that's the funny thing about points of view; we like to think we are right, and everyone else is wrong. I find it better to say we just have different points of view, because we have different tastes. And I just stated mine in a post, which you decided to contest.

And hey, I'll give the girl some grieving time. It's not totally a bad thing that she hasn't stepped forward just yet. My only concern was hoping she didn't become a character stereotype of the terminally depressed, like a certain Eva pilot or a crying moon girl.

I think she won't, but then again, we'll see. A lot of people are forecasting this to be a dark series, and given how Madoka has handled that so far, she'll end up in an asylum before too long...
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Old 2011-01-31, 04:38   Link #26
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Madoka is my favorite character, it is odd that as the main character and namesake of the series she has the least activity in her topic but it's not surprising seeing the progression of things.
Yeah, I'm not surprised that so many people think Madoka's bland or generic, but she's my favorite character as well. Beats out Sayaka (My second favorite) by a pretty wide margin.

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A lot of people are forecasting this to be a dark series, and given how Madoka has handled that so far, she'll end up in an asylum before too long...
Sanity Slippage is one of my favorite tropes, so I wouldn't mind at all if Madoka went through that. I love negative character development just as much as positive.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:24   Link #27
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In most other magical girl series, the girls in question accept the magic by the end of the first episode. By the time something happens that makes them think, "OMG, I really could die while doing this!" they're already in so deep, they have to buckle up and continue on, trusting in their abilities and experience as magical girls to pull them through.
Madoka in comparison has the luxury of seeing the glorious and ugly sides of magical girls in action repeatedly before deciding if she wants to become one. Unlike almost every other magical girl ever, she still has the option of walking away without consequences at this stage of the game.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:25   Link #28
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In episode 1, i found Madoka so-so. In episode 2, impressions improved but still don't really care. Episode 3, found her naviety annoying but otherwise ok. Episode 4, i found myself hoping she never becomes a mahou shoujo.

I blame the toothbrushing scenes and the scenes where she lets down her hair. Her pancake style face is growing on me as well. Episodes 1-3 established her as an innocent person while 4 gave her sadness, fear and bravery. When Kyubei's sentences are accepted as double meaning (episode 1: If you give up now, everything ends! <-yeah you would end you furry idiot), the bad end that is in store really sucks.

They really pulled off the emotional manipulation good there. The manipulation of light and shadow to control the underlying messages was also very well done. If she was established as a idiot + innocent + naive, then i won't not have cared about her upcoming bad end since no one can save an idiot.

Eg Sayaka. To me she's an idiot, wishing for something that could be solved without wishes just because it was expedient. Now she's probably going to drag Madoka in when she's about to get killed or similar.
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:14   Link #29
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Eg Sayaka. To me she's an idiot, wishing for something that could be solved without wishes just because it was expedient. Now she's probably going to drag Madoka in when she's about to get killed or similar.
Hmm? Madoka is already involved. She involved herself by trying to save her friend and those people. Sayaka had to come to her rescue and save her. If Sayaka hadn't made that contract, Madoka would be dead now. Homura might have killed the witch eventually, showing up later, but Madoka was about to be killed while wallowing in her despair. Sayaka literally got there in the nick of time.

By the way, not sure what you mean about "something that could be solved without wishes" as we were very definitely told that Kamijou's hand could not be healed with any medical technology. Only a wish could have healed him and allowed him to play again.
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:24   Link #30
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Hmm? Madoka is already involved. She involved herself by trying to save her friend and those people. Sayaka had to come to her rescue and save her. If Sayaka hadn't made that contract, Madoka would be dead now. Homura might have killed the witch eventually, showing up later, but Madoka was about to be killed while wallowing in her despair. Sayaka literally got there in the nick of time.
No, involved as in become a mahou shoujo. Homura's words on her being too caring is a likely foreshadow. As for dying, that is unknown. Madoka was seperated into pieces when drawn into the witch dimension. Yet she survived fine. Her stretching did not show she was going to die yet. Add to this Homura arrived 1 minute after Sayaka.

Then there is the problem of can she even die inside there? Has any normals been killed inside a witch dimension?

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By the way, not sure what you mean about "something that could be solved without wishes" as we were very definitely told that Kamijou's hand could not be healed with any medical technology. Only a wish could have healed him and allowed him to play again.
Cut off your left hand. There's no wishes in RL. What happens? The vet whose hand gets amputated. He can't shoot anymore. Does he die?
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:55   Link #31
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Then there is the problem of can she even die inside there? Has any normals been killed inside a witch dimension?
A frightening answer would be, that's up to the witch's discretion.
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Old 2011-01-31, 14:58   Link #32
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Then there is the problem of can she even die inside there? Has any normals been killed inside a witch dimension?
Mami clearly states at one point that normal people who wind up in a witches magic barrier typically never return. I'd imagine that they are killed, but who knows?
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:00   Link #33
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No, involved as in become a mahou shoujo. Homura's words on her being too caring is a likely foreshadow. As for dying, that is unknown. Madoka was seperated into pieces when drawn into the witch dimension. Yet she survived fine. Her stretching did not show she was going to die yet. Add to this Homura arrived 1 minute after Sayaka.
Maybe, maybe not. Her previous separation could be seen as just her being drawn into the witch world. Once the witch took notice of her, it began to devour her. At any rate, it was quite dangerous, and Sayaka still saved her. And the point being, Madoka is still continuing to get herself involved, even if she isn't an MG.

And in actuality, by Sayaka becoming an MG, Madoka doesn't have to. Now there is someone who can take of the witches. So Sayaka is helping to keep Madoka uninvolved in the MG business.

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Then there is the problem of can she even die inside there? Has any normals been killed inside a witch dimension?
Of course normals can die. Take anotehr look at ep 3; when Mami gets her head bitten off, she reverts to her normal clothes, implying that she turned normal. You think normals are 100% safe in a witch dimension? Kyube obviously believed there was some amount of danger (related to how active the witch had become).

Also, since witches deliberately feed on normal people, I would assume it could draw them in.

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Cut off your left hand. There's no wishes in RL. What happens? The vet whose hand gets amputated. He can't shoot anymore. Does he die?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Kamijou was alive, true, but there was no medical technology that would have allowed his hand to return to normal enough to play the violin. He even said he couldn't feel anything with it, implying the death of nerves.

Your original comment was that his hand could be "solved" without wishes. That is blatantly untrue. It's a point of fact: Kamijou would never have been able to play the violin again without a wish (or some other magic or miracle). Heh, it's one of the few facts we have.
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:20   Link #34
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Maybe, maybe not. Her previous separation could be seen as just her being drawn into the witch world. Once the witch took notice of her, it began to devour her. At any rate, it was quite dangerous, and Sayaka still saved her. And the point being, Madoka is still continuing to get herself involved, even if she isn't an MG.
Sorry but i see major manipulation. She is not willing to get involved but some furry creature is forcing the issue. Hitomi of all people? In a spot where Madoka could see her? After she parted with Homura?

Too coincidental when a nice example of the furball showing up exactly when Sayaka friend is acting up is added into the equation.

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And in actuality, by Sayaka becoming an MG, Madoka doesn't have to. Now there is someone who can take of the witches. So Sayaka is helping to keep Madoka uninvolved in the MG business.
I don't see this at all. In fact furball's sentences when talking to Kyoko (whose personality he knows and invited) and the tone sounds very fake. To me he sounds like he is goading Kyoko to attack Sayaka because this is the way to drag Madoka in. Remember only Madoka dreamed of the furball, not Sayaka, so the final target is pretty much set.

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Of course normals can die. Take anotehr look at ep 3; when Mami gets her head bitten off, she reverts to her normal clothes, implying that she turned normal. You think normals are 100% safe in a witch dimension? Kyube obviously believed there was some amount of danger (related to how active the witch had become).
The problem is did we see any non mahou shoujo die? Example the woman who jumped off. Why was she not eaten? The appearence of the dimensional door just next to Madoka instead of the MANY juicy people outside?

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Your original comment was that his hand could be "solved" without wishes. That is blatantly untrue. It's a point of fact: Kamijou would never have been able to play the violin again without a wish (or some other magic or miracle). Heh, it's one of the few facts we have.
You're looking a only the symptom, not the root. The problem he has is of his dream being gone as well as his hand. In RL since there are no wishes, the death of one dream can birth another IF there is sufficient emotional support and strength of will. Sayaka could have been that support but it would have taken years or decades. So what does she do? Wish for his hand. Why? Its expedient and gives immediate gratification -> aka stupid.

Yes we could make a case of her being young (yet she is aware of the selfishness that serves as the root for wishing for others) and we could make a case of her being emotionally fragile (and she never thought such a day would happen?!?)

Normally in such cases in anime, i just wait for them to reap what they sow and laugh about it but in this case, she's probably bringing down Madoka and that is just not nice.
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:36   Link #35
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Sorry but i see major manipulation. She is not willing to get involved but some furry creature is forcing the issue. Hitomi of all people? In a spot where Madoka could see her? After she parted with Homura?

Too coincidental when a nice example of the furball showing up exactly when Sayaka friend is acting up is added into the equation.
Theoretical assumption.

See, this would imply Kyube has control over witch victims, something that hasn't been stated. You're welcome to the assumption, though, if it makes you feel better. When you're assuming there is a Chessmaster in play, you have to be able to account for them controlling what is random. There is no way Kyube could have controlled where Madoka went, nor predicted where she would go.

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I don't see this at all. In fact furball's sentences when talking to Kyoko (whose personality he knows and invited) and the tone sounds very fake. To me he sounds like he is goading Kyoko to attack Sayaka because this is the way to drag Madoka in. Remember only Madoka dreamed of the furball, not Sayaka, so the final target is pretty much set.
I'd say theoretical assumption again, but theories at least have something to lend them a little weight. You don't have any here. There is quite a bit of time between Kube leaving Madoka and Sayaka, saying he had to find another MG, and Sayaka deciding she wanted to be one. Thus, plenty of time for him to put out an "ad" saying the territory was vacant. Kyoko even says as much.

You're Kyube far too much credit for controlling things, that it begins to stress the sense of disbelief. Having written many stories myself, I've had to rewrite some of my stories when it was pointed out that no one could have successfully engineered certain things; there were just too many uncontrollable random elements in play.

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The problem is did we see any non mahou shoujo die? Example the woman who jumped off. Why was she not eaten? The appearence of the dimensional door just next to Madoka instead of the MANY juicy people outside?
So, you're assuming a normal can't die in a witches world? Wow. That's great, then. Why are we sending MG's who can die, and instead let's just send a bunch of normals! At least, let's give an MG a ton of normals to act as a buffer army.

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You're looking a only the symptom, not the root. The problem he has is of his dream being gone as well as his hand. In RL since there are no wishes, the death of one dream can birth another IF there is sufficient emotional support and strength of will. Sayaka could have been that support but it would have taken years or decades. So what does she do? Wish for his hand. Why? Its expedient and gives immediate gratification -> aka stupid.
Oho? Really? You're telling me, you'd go up to a quadropalegic sitting in a wheelchair, and tell them: "It's a good thing you lost all access to your body! It means you can find something else you enjoy! Oh, by the way, I could wish you whole again, but I feel it's better for your character to remain the way you are."

Or perhaps you'd see someone suffering on the side of the road, but not stop to help because, "Eh, it's just a little pain they are going through. With enough support, they'll get better."

Holy shit, you scare me.

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Normally in such cases in anime, i just wait for them to reap what they sow and laugh about it but in this case, she's probably bringing down Madoka and that is just not nice.
Damn that Sayaka for saving Madoka! I mean, Madoka was only screaming in pain as she was stretched apart. Perhaps she would have lived; perhaps not. But the bitch Madoka can live with that risk, and with a little pain, eh?
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:55   Link #36
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Theoretical assumption.

See, this would imply Kyube has control over witch victims, something that hasn't been stated. You're welcome to the assumption, though, if it makes you feel better. When you're assuming there is a Chessmaster in play, you have to be able to account for them controlling what is random. There is no way Kyube could have controlled where Madoka went, nor predicted where she would go.
Eh spying sound familiar? Or did Kyubei just decided that it was a good time to visit Sayaka at that precise time?

And sorry you don't need to control the witch victims you just need control over the witch. Grief seed stuck in a hospital where surprise surprise Sayaka's friend is in?

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I'd say theoretical assumption again, but theories at least have something to lend them a little weight. You don't have any here. There is quite a bit of time between Kube leaving Madoka and Sayaka, saying he had to find another MG, and Sayaka deciding she wanted to be one. Thus, plenty of time for him to put out an "ad" saying the territory was vacant. Kyoko even says as much.

You're Kyube far too much credit for controlling things, that it begins to stress the sense of disbelief. Having written many stories myself, I've had to rewrite some of my stories when it was pointed out that no one could have successfully engineered certain things; there were just too many uncontrollable random elements in play.
Sometimes i really don't understand why some people don't think about the basics. Whats the name of the show? Whats a wish's power based on? Who grants wishes? Who was i talking about as the furball so far?

Lets put it in sci fi. Could Q from startrek have done what you said?

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So, you're assuming a normal can't die in a witches world? Wow. That's great, then. Why are we sending MG's who can die, and instead let's just send a bunch of normals! At least, let's give an MG a ton of normals to act as a buffer army.
Please point out where i assumed that a normal could not die. As i said point out to me where a normal died. The CURRENT information on the interaction between normals and witches do not support them dying in the witch dimension rather all are shown to suicide

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Oho? Really? You're telling me, you'd go up to a quadropalegic sitting in a wheelchair, and tell them: "It's a good thing you lost all access to your body! It means you can find something else you enjoy! Oh, by the way, I could wish you whole again, but I feel it's better for your character to remain the way you are."

Or perhaps you'd see someone suffering on the side of the road, but not stop to help because, "Eh, it's just a little pain they are going through. With enough support, they'll get better."

Holy shit, you scare me.
...

i) Point out where i said Sayaka should have gleeful laughed at her friend
ii) Point out where i mentioned complete paralysis.
iii) Is losing access to your left had complete paralysis?
iv) Exactly where did i say that Sayaka would feel that its better to remain as he was, depressed and dreamless?
v) If Sayaka helped him be spending YEARS or DECADES, does that mean a greater SACRIFICE than "wish your hand was fine, ok i'm off to die now"?

... But then again like i said, some things can't be taught.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-01 at 10:01. Reason: Let's not get personal... take it to PM or VM.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:09   Link #37
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Eh spying sound familiar? Or did Kyubei just decided that it was a good time to visit Sayaka at that precise time?
Why didn't he visit Sayaka in the hospital before, then? Because Sayaka wasn't ready to make a wish yet. Take a look at that scene again carefully; there is *no* surprise on Sayaka's face when her head comes up. Indeed, her expression is firm, especially after what she just told Kamijou.

In short, whether Kyube showed up there on his own whim or Sayaka's is immaterial. Sayaka appeared quite ready to make the wish, and if Kyube hadn't showed up, she probably would have gone looking for him. If anything, Kuybe was responding to her heart.

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Sometimes i really don't understand why some people don't think about the basics. Whats the name of the show? Whats a wish's power based on? Who grants wishes? Who was i talking about as the furball so far?

Lets put it in sci fi. Could Q from startrek have done what you said?
Yes, but we have no evidence Kyube is a Q-like being. If Kyube could grant his own wishes, he'd make as many MG's as he needed, and adjust them mentally for his task. There would be no need for games.

Again, you make assumptions. Are they interesting theories? Yes, that I'll grant. But they haven't been proven one way or the other.

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Please point out where i assumed that a normal could not die. As i said point out to me where a normal died. The CURRENT information on the interaction between normals and witches do not support them dying in the witch dimension rather all are shown to suicide
Wait, so you need to actually see a normal die in a witch world to believe that it's possible? Why didn't you answer JimmyC when he said it would basically be up to the witch? Actually, normals probably can't enter the witch world, and Sayaka and Madoka only could, only because they were special. So regardless of whether a normal could, them entering was clearly considered dangerous. Only we only went off on this tangent because you wanted to believe that Madoka was somehow 100% safe.

I'm sorry I can't share that assumption. Even if I buy that she couldn't have died, she was at least in pain from being stretched, so I suppose you think endless torture is somehow better than death?

Quote:
...
i) Point out where i said Sayaka should have gleeful laughed at her friend
ii) Point out where i mentioned complete paralysis.
iii) Is losing access to your left had complete paralysis?
iv) Exactly where did i say that Sayaka would feel that its better to remain as he was, depressed and dreamless?
v) If Sayaka helped him be spending YEARS or DECADES, does that mean a greater SACRIFICE than "wish your hand was fine, ok i'm off to die now"?

...
Look, we got onto this tangent because you believed that Kamijou was somehow better off for having a paralyzed hand. And you do have a partial point: one person sticking with another and helping them over decades does take considerable will and sacrifice.

But you're trying to make it sound like a bad thing that he was healed, and that he'll once again be able to do the thing he loved more than anything: play the violin. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this; do you really think people should turn down a chance to be able to do what they loved? Do you think injured people shouldn't be healed?

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-01 at 10:03. Reason: Removed quoted off-topic sentences
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:33   Link #38
FlavorOfLife
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Why didn't he visit Sayaka in the hospital before, then? Because Sayaka wasn't ready to make a wish yet. Take a look at that scene again carefully; there is *no* surprise on Sayaka's face when her head comes up. Indeed, her expression is firm, especially after what she just told Kamijou.

In short, whether Kyube showed up there on his own whim or Sayaka's is immaterial. Sayaka appeared quite ready to make the wish, and if Kyube hadn't showed up, she probably would have gone looking for him. If anything, Kuybe was responding to her heart.
Yes the same way he responded to Mami's desire to live.

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Yes, but we have no evidence Kyube is a Q-like being. If Kyube could grant his own wishes, he'd make as many MG's as he needed, and adjust them mentally for his task. There would be no need for games.

Again, you make assumptions. Are they interesting theories? Yes, that I'll grant. But they haven't been proven one way or the other.
"Sorry but i see major manipulation" doesn't sound like i'm aware that this is not proven?

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Wait, so you need to actually see a normal die in a witch world to believe that it's possible? Why didn't you answer JimmyC when he said it would basically be up to the witch? Actually, normals probably can't enter the witch world, and Sayaka and Madoka only could, only because they were special. So regardless of whether a normal could, them entering was clearly considered dangerous. Only we only went off on this tangent because you wanted to believe that Madoka was somehow 100% safe.

I'm sorry I can't share that assumption. Even if I buy that she couldn't have died, she was at least in pain from being stretched, so I suppose you think endless torture is somehow better than death?
"Up to the witch" is a theory. It is acceptable because it does not contravene what is seen. Hence why should i put a one sentence answer like "That's possible"?

Madoka was safe from making that wish UNTIL someone she cares for is threatened. Currently that is Sayaka and will remain so. If/When she bites it, the next in line is her family.

Sure her family could be bumped up in the queue if Sayaka did not make her wish BUT stopping her family from suiciding is easier than stopping a witch which is what an inexperienced and not very powerful Sayaka (Mami never mentioned Sayaka) will face.

Ever wonder why the furball is so anxious to get Madoka to become mahou shoujo? This implies urgency which implies something critical whether a time limit or what not.

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Look, we got onto this tangent because you believed that Kamijou was somehow better off for having a paralyzed hand. And you do have a partial point: one person sticking with another and helping them over decades does take considerable will and sacrifice.

But you're trying to make it sound like a bad thing that he was healed, and that he'll once again be able to do the thing he loved more than anything: play the violin. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this; do you really think people should turn down a chance to be able to do what they loved? Do you think injured people shouldn't be healed?
No, i said Sayaka was STUPID for using her wish when it could be done WITHOUT wishes.

It is a STUPID thing he was healed because the COST is Sayaka dying (ok no big deal to me, reap what you sow etc) and probably dragging down Madoka with her.

None of this NEEDED to happen if she really wanted to help him. Now he gets his hand back and she's going to die. Seriously think about it. The method i proposed, she would LIVE (abeit with much sadness until the guy got over it) and the guy could still be saved.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:38   Link #39
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Ever wonder why the furball is so anxious to get Madoka to become mahou shoujo? This implies urgency which implies something critical whether a time limit or what not.
It could also mean a hidden motivation, not necessarily related to the witch hunting. We really need more clues to get any solid conclusion on this, I think.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:44   Link #40
Kaijo
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Yes the same way he responded to Mami's desire to live.
So he should have left her to die?

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Ever wonder why the furball is so anxious to get Madoka to become mahou shoujo? This implies urgency which implies something critical whether a time limit or what not.
Not really, because he doesn't seem anxious to me. He tells her outright that she has great potential, but that's it. When they finally decide they don't want to be MG's, he apologizes and leaves without a fuss. If Kyube really wanted Madoka, and if he were really scheming, and if the wishes were as powerful as being able to world reset and time travel... then Kyube could have said reviving Mami with a wish was possible, or at least hinted at it.

That would have made one HELL of an impression on Madoka. Even if she didn't decide to become an MG, it's great mental torture to subject someone to, knowing that in time, they'd probably come to you because they know about a specific wish you can grant. Instead, he apologizes for bringing them in.

Note that Kyube doesn't even appear when Madoka gets involved with the zombies. He could have popped in and said, "I can help get you out of this if you contract with me." Would have been perfect.

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No, i said Sayaka was STUPID for using her wish when it could be done WITHOUT wishes.
It was stupid to want Kamijou to play the violin again?
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