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Old 2011-02-01, 13:08   Link #21801
Cao Ni Ma
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She deletes a personality/character in the real world for the sole purpose of evading a red in the meta world. This Shannon's actions are very convenient!
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:09   Link #21802
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Well, we are told that the way of getting out of the logic error was a bit on the dodgy side, and that it would never work in a mystery novel.
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:18   Link #21803
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
She deletes a personality/character in the real world for the sole purpose of evading a red in the meta world. This Shannon's actions are very convenient!
There's always the idea that Erika killed Kanon when she shot him through the door multiple fucking goddamn times.

Also, I imagined Kanon was killed not to "dodge a red in the Meta-World", but to screw with Erika. I still sort of like Erika-ball theory, and if Erika is Jessica...
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:20   Link #21804
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
She deletes a personality/character in the real world for the sole purpose of evading a red in the meta world. This Shannon's actions are very convenient!
not shannon its yasu.in ep7 i think yasu created a kanon persona for shannon because of battler and yasu also created a beatrice persona for maria.so she have 2 different persona.

anyways,shannon is a real person not a persona so thats why she leave a corpse after she's killed.
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:22   Link #21805
witchfan
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If you're talking about Kanon's existence and non-existence in the guest room, I'd say there are better ways to solve it than red-avoiding Shkannon. If we wanted to discuss this in detail, though, we would need a list of all the relevant reds as well as a description of the scenario and contradiction (at least, I would like one, since I know well enough that I don't have photographic memory and may very well miss a lot of details). If someone neutral could write a good one it would be very productive. Otherwise we're just talking half-blindly here.
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:31   Link #21806
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
If you're talking about Kanon's existence and non-existence in the guest room, I'd say there are better ways to solve it than red-avoiding Shkannon. If we wanted to discuss this in detail, though, we would need a list of all the relevant reds as well as a description of the scenario and contradiction (at least, I would like one, since I know well enough that I don't have photographic memory and may very well miss a lot of details). If someone neutral could write a good one it would be very productive. Otherwise we're just talking half-blindly here.
lets do that, here's where i look for red truth
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

its hard to find the answer if you want to avoid it.

anyways,im not talking about shkannon,what i think is yasu=kanon and beatrice
kanon and beatrice are the persona yasu created.
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:45   Link #21807
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If Kanon is naught else but a concept, how exactly does he die? Does he "die" several times a day, even on normal days? If he can only "die" when permanently erased (at least within the bounds of a single story), what would that mean for a disguise variant? If he's a personality/persona/character-portrayed, is it so simple to say he "died?"

And before we start getting into "ep8 confirms personality death!" think very hard about what ep8 actually proposes. Are these circumstances analogous?
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's always the idea that Erika killed Kanon when she shot him through the door multiple fucking goddamn times.
Well, that would certainly be a lot less problematic to explain. I also like "Beatrice was talking about a different scenario, one in which Kanon isn't there/doesn't exist."
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:51   Link #21808
witchfan
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That's a useful list of reds, but I still don't remember the context well enough. What I don't remember:

- The contradiction is that Kanon was confirmed to 'rescue' Battler, meaning he entered the room, set Battler free, and locked the room with him inside. At the same time, he was not there. Is that correct?
- This contradiction aside, what are the logical problems that occur when we assume Kanon is not a persona of Shannon, but an actual person?

What needs clarification:
- How exactly does the Shkannon solution work? I don't remember how Yasu is supposed to avoid the reds, such those about the seals being unbroken and there being 5 people in the room at times XYZ.
- I was going to write, "is there a problem when assuming Beatrice is talking about two different games?", but was beaten to it. Is there a problem with that? I mean, technically, I'd say she already does that with the final reds in the episode.
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:53   Link #21809
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Kanon is naught else but a concept, how exactly does he die? Does he "die" several times a day, even on normal days? If he can only "die" when permanently erased (at least within the bounds of a single story), what would that mean for a disguise variant? If he's a personality/persona/character-portrayed, is it so simple to say he "died?"

And before we start getting into "ep8 confirms personality death!" think very hard about what ep8 actually proposes. Are these circumstances analogous?Well, that would certainly be a lot less problematic to explain. I also like "Beatrice was talking about a different scenario, one in which Kanon isn't there/doesn't exist."
i don't know how kanon died but Will said that "only the actor can kill the character"
im sure yasu acted as kanon.
oh yeah its the same as battler killing the battler persona.in ep8? im not sure though
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Old 2011-02-01, 13:58   Link #21810
witchfan
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To contrast, referring to the crackpot gun theory, it's also important to discuss whether "dying" (in the human sense) equals "not existing". I'm not sure we can avoid the red if we say Kanon bit his tongue after entering the room, for example.

Quote:
If Kanon is naught else but a concept, how exactly does he die? Does he "die" several times a day, even on normal days? If he can only "die" when permanently erased (at least within the bounds of a single story), what would that mean for a disguise variant? If he's a personality/persona/character-portrayed, is it so simple to say he "died?"

Last edited by witchfan; 2011-02-01 at 14:18.
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:19   Link #21811
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
That's a useful list of reds, but I still don't remember the context well enough. What I don't remember:

- The contradiction is that Kanon was confirmed to 'rescue' Battler, meaning he entered the room, set Battler free, and locked the room with him inside. At the same time, he was not there. Is that correct?
- This contradiction aside, what are the logical problems that occur when we assume Kanon is not a persona of Shannon, but an actual person?

What needs clarification:
- How exactly does the Shkannon solution work? I don't remember how Yasu is supposed to avoid the reds, such those about the seals being unbroken and there being 5 people in the room at times XYZ.
- I was going to write, "is there a problem when assuming Beatrice is talking about two different games?", but was beaten to it. Is there a problem with that? I mean, technically, I'd say she already does that with the final reds in the episode.
-yes if we assume that the actor ,who played kanon persona,change from kanon to other persona,like beatrice.

-the problem is how can kanon die without leaving a corpse? in ep7 Will said that illusion doesn't leave a corpse and illusion return to illusion,so i think kanon is a illusion in other words a persona/character.
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:22   Link #21812
witchfan
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Sorry, I couldn't salvage much from your response. I am explicitly assuming Shannon isn't Kanon, and thinking about this from that viewpoint.
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:22   Link #21813
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I still sort of like Erika-ball theory, and if Erika is Jessica...
I hate the erika-ball theory as much as many people hate shkanon. It's simply retarded the idea that the author can arbitrarily affix the label "Erika" to whoever he likes for no reason at all and then use that in the red truths.

The only ghosterika interpretation that I'm willing to accept is the Erika=Beatrice theory. Because in that case we have a person that was actually hinted to play many different roles. But for the rest it's simply a bad trickery to say that Rosa or whoever is Erika without the slightest clue.

On the other side about shkanon you can say anything but not that it wasn't hinted.
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:27   Link #21814
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Sorry, I couldn't salvage much from your response. I am explicitly assuming Shannon isn't Kanon, and thinking about this from that viewpoint.
ahaha sorry ,im not good at explaining things.i suck at it
im also assuming the same thing,that shannon is not kanon,so there's no problem if yasu is kanon?
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:39   Link #21815
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I hate the erika-ball theory as much as many people hate shkanon. It's simply retarded the idea that the author can arbitrarily affix the label "Erika" to whoever he likes for no reason at all and then use that in the red truths.
I don't seriously believe it, mind you. I just think it's fun for things like fanfiction and alternate character interpretation.

Quote:
The only ghosterika interpretation that I'm willing to accept is the Erika=Beatrice theory. Because in that case we have a person that was actually hinted to play many different roles. But for the rest it's simply a bad trickery to say that Rosa or whoever is Erika without the slightest clue.
My personal favorite as well. It's just hard to work into a literal model.

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im also assuming the same thing,that shannon is not kanon,so there's no problem if yasu is kanon?
Shannon and Yasu are the same person, though. You can't argue that Yasu is Kanon but Shannon isn't Kanon.
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:42   Link #21816
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Given who supposedly wrote End and Dawn, isn't it more that Erika is Battler?

I mean there's no literal interpretation on a story level where that makes sense but if Erika's just a separate and wholly fictional existence, she basically is kind of Battler.

"So yeah the guy you can't remember you are and the girl you made up are stuck in a bedroom and we need your ex-girlfriend's imaginary maid's imaginary brother to save him."

"How's she gonna do that?"

"Does it really matter?"
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Old 2011-02-01, 14:59   Link #21817
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Shannon and Yasu are the same person, though. You can't argue that Yasu is Kanon but Shannon isn't Kanon.
i can't see how it works though,shannon and yasu is only one person?
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Old 2011-02-01, 15:02   Link #21818
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, that would certainly be a lot less problematic to explain. I also like "Beatrice was talking about a different scenario, one in which Kanon isn't there/doesn't exist."
I guess it also fits the "This wouldn't work in a mystery novel" - in a mystery novel, the corpse would just fall out of the closet and it would be obvious.

Although if that was a valid move, I don't know why you'd even bother bringing Kanon into it. Why not just have Battler commit suicide?
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Old 2011-02-01, 15:09   Link #21819
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
i can't see how it works though,shannon and yasu is only one person?
Are you joking me off? Yasu, Shannon, and Kanon are synonymous entities.

Quote:
Although if that was a valid move, I don't know why you'd even bother bringing Kanon into it. Why not just have Battler commit suicide?
Because that's the same as Erika finding Battler alive. He has to disappear or he's hosed.
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Old 2011-02-01, 15:11   Link #21820
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The entire Logic Error is pretty stupid. Unless and until someone comes up with an elegant solution that explains it from top level to bottom level, it's always going to feel a little contrived. It's possible that it simply was contrived, but we can hold out hope to the contrary.
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