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Old 2011-02-01, 15:56   Link #21821
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because that's the same as Erika finding Battler alive. He has to disappear or he's hosed.
Wouldn't finding Kanon dead also be the same as finding Kanon alive, then?
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Old 2011-02-01, 15:58   Link #21822
witchfan
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
To contrast, referring to the crackpot gun theory, it's also important to discuss whether "dying" (in the human sense) equals "not existing". I'm not sure we can avoid the red if we say Kanon bit his tongue after entering the room, for example.
I would like to mention that I just found reds in EP5 apparently confirming this:

- 'Kinzo is dead at the starting time for all games
- Kinzo doesn't exist

Looks like I forgot about them.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:03   Link #21823
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Are you joking me off? Yasu, Shannon, and Kanon are synonymous entities.
no im not joking,explain it then to make it clear .
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:07   Link #21824
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The entire Logic Error is pretty stupid. Unless and until someone comes up with an elegant solution that explains it from top level to bottom level, it's always going to feel a little contrived. It's possible that it simply was contrived, but we can hold out hope to the contrary.
Given that a Logic Error is basically literally a plot hole that must be satisfied with an explanation pulled out of the ass, I think this is the point much like how Erika is an intentional Mary Sue.

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Wouldn't finding Kanon dead also be the same as finding Kanon alive, then?
No. Erika was previously told how Battler's corpse was supposed to magically vanish. Finding Kanon, alive or dead, in the room instead does not contradict the witch's fantasy that Battler had spun. Meanwhile, if Battler were to be found in the room, whether living or dead, he would've had to take back "Erika finding the letter" like she herself suggested before turning on the lights.

It's like Beatrice saying "I used magic to lock the door and kill Jessica!" Only for the door to not have been locked and Jessica to be sipping tea inside bein' all "Sup dawgs."

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no im not joking,explain it then to make it clear .
I'm starting to doubt that you've actually read EP7, if you need someone to explain to you that Yasu and Shannon are the same person.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:08   Link #21825
LyricalAura
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I'm not fundamentally opposed to a Kanontrice theory (actually I'd prefer it if it worked), but that theory first has to overcome the timeline issue regarding Shannon's age, and second has to provide an explanation for the Love Duel.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The entire Logic Error is pretty stupid. Unless and until someone comes up with an elegant solution that explains it from top level to bottom level, it's always going to feel a little contrived. It's possible that it simply was contrived, but we can hold out hope to the contrary.
Shall I dig up my "Piece-Erika and Piece-Battler were co-conspirators" theory again? I thought that worked pretty well, although I haven't updated it since EP6.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:11   Link #21826
delita-umw-
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Err, ep.7 heavily implies that Shanon is actually Yasu's imaginary friend who exhibits all the perfect qualities a maid should have. The scene where Yasu becomes a witch and erases Shanon's memory is a perfect example of this. Hell, that's the scene that practically confirms it.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:14   Link #21827
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Err, ep.7 heavily implies that Shanon is actually Yasu's imaginary friend who exhibits all the perfect qualities a maid should have. The scene where Yasu becomes a witch and erases Shanon's memory is a perfect example of this. Hell, that's like the scene that practically confirms it.
It can also imply that Yasu has an imaginary friend who is an idealized version of a real Shannon. That's the basis of the Kanontrice theories I've seen, anyway.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:15   Link #21828
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No. Erika was previously told how Battler's corpse was supposed to magically vanish. Finding Kanon, alive or dead, in the room instead does not contradict the witch's fantasy that Battler had spun. Meanwhile, if Battler were to be found in the room, whether living or dead, he would've had to take back "Erika finding the letter" like she herself suggested before turning on the lights.
But if the red "Battler does not exist in this room" would be valid after a Battler suicide, wouldn't that... have been enough? I mean, otherwise the whole thing is just "distract Erika so much that she forgets the obvious".
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:21   Link #21829
delita-umw-
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I'm not really familiar with the specifics of Kanontrice theories, so pardon me if this question seems silly, but whats the explanation for the "Yasu becomes a witch and Shanon forgets she ever had a roommate" scene? That Yasu/ real Shanon were never roommates and the scene where Shanon suddenly wakes up is revealing that fact?
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:21   Link #21830
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

I'm starting to doubt that you've actually read EP7, if you need someone to explain to you that Yasu and Shannon are the same person.
i actually read ep7 ,it didn't really talk about yasu and shannon as one person.the ep show us that yasu is infact a witch and a friend of shannon.

lets assume that yasu and shannon was the same person.
who is kanon then? how did he disappear from battler's closed room?
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:37   Link #21831
victorino123
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Beatrice made the games (1-4) in a form that can be resolved. I don't think if the othes eps follow the same rule :x
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:38   Link #21832
witchfan
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Well, as for the timeline issue, I wouldn't call it Kanontrice: the theory by no means assumes Shannon isn't who we suppose she is. At worst, it makes Kanon a kind of accomplice. At best, it becomes Shannon & Kanontrice. I can't give an explicit answer about the Love Duel, as there is simply not enough evidence. This is not to say conjectures are impossible, however. It's not like the Shkanon interpretation of the Love Duel is the immediate conclusion - it's a conjecture as any other.

I can try my luck. For example, let us assume that scene discusses the first four episodes (and perhaps the true events) rather than EPs 5-6. Let us assume we are to interpret it such that Shannon (the real person) killed Kanon (the real person). With the exception of one 'trouble red' from EP4, the reds work here, from what I've seen. As for the motive... perhaps we can relate it to the events of EP2? Remember that scene where Kanon was killed in EP1? Perhaps he discovered 'Beatrice' and could not accept it ('stop toying with people's emotions!', he says). But is this a satisfying answer? I'm not so sure. If I had the patience to seriously consider it, I would start with EPs 2 and 6, and see what I can construct from there. Maybe someone else has an idea?
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:42   Link #21833
Sherringford
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i actually read ep7 ,it didn't really talk about yasu and shannon as one person.the ep show us that yasu is infact a witch and a friend of shannon.
...I can only say this to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pffTr5vCsdM

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lets assume that yasu and shannon was the same person.
who is kanon then? how did he disappear from battler's closed room?
Personality death, aka "stupid loophole" theory.

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Beatrice made the games (1-4) in a form that can be resolved. I don't think if the othes eps follow the same rule :x
In episode 6, Battler used Knox. In episode 5, Lambda made it. She sure as hell wanted the game to be solvable. Episode 7 wasn't a game in itself. Episode 8 is self-solvable.

So I'd go ahead and assume that they are all solvable, even if only by Umineko's distorted definition of solved.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:43   Link #21834
Judoh
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
i actually read ep7 ,it didn't really talk about yasu and shannon as one person.the ep show us that yasu is infact a witch and a friend of shannon.
You're not supposed to take that literally. The problem is if Shannon were a separate person from Yasu back then, as shown, there are all sorts of zany timeline problems that undermine previous episodes.

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lets assume that yasu and shannon was the same person.
who is kanon then? how did he disappear from battler's closed room?
He'd also be Shannon under Shkanontrice. And he'd never be in the room next over in the first place.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:43   Link #21835
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
I'm not really familiar with the specifics of Kanontrice theories, so pardon me if this question seems silly, but whats the explanation for the "Yasu becomes a witch and Shanon forgets she ever had a roommate" scene? That Yasu/ real Shanon were never roommates and the scene where Shanon suddenly wakes up is revealing that fact?
Yes, that's right. The same explanation works for the subsequent Golden Land tea parties between Yasu and Shannon afterward. The theory continues that Yasu took on the identity of Kanon in order to support Shannon after she gave up on Battler. She'd started writing actual mystery stories by that point, so she incorporated Shannon's love for Battler into her culprit character's backstory and used Battler as the detective, even after Shannon herself had already moved on.

The problem that comes up with this theory is "why did Shannon continue to be a servant for ten years if she's not Yasu?"
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:49   Link #21836
delita-umw-
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Thanks Lyrical. Also...if Yasu =/= Shanon, where does she disappear to during the timeskip before she creates Kanon?
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:54   Link #21837
Renall
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The problem that comes up with this theory is "why did Shannon continue to be a servant for ten years if she's not Yasu?"
Easy money? Gold digging? She wanted to be first in line to buy one of Krauss's moon apartments? We're told servants usually don't stay that long, but that doesn't mean they can't, and Shannon herself is held out as an example of this.

The broader question would be the complete lack of aging, of course, but write that one off the same way as flashback Battler not looking 12 and you can explain it all with laziness!

Or not.
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Old 2011-02-01, 16:55   Link #21838
LyricalAura
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Thanks Lyrical. Also...if Yasu =/= Shanon, where does she disappear to during the timeskip before she creates Kanon?
She lives in the mansion secretly (except to Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo) and pranks the hell out of everyone as a witch.
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:10   Link #21839
unsuspectingvisitor
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You're not supposed to take that literally. The problem is if Shannon were a separate person from Yasu back then, as shown, there are all sorts of zany timeline problems that undermine previous episodes.



He'd also be Shannon under Shkanontrice. And he'd never be in the room next over in the first place.
-well i'll take it literally because like higurashi there has be a fantasy to it.
hanyuu's existence can be considered a fantasy right?
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:15   Link #21840
LyricalAura
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The broader question would be the complete lack of aging, of course, but write that one off the same way as flashback Battler not looking 12 and you can explain it all with laziness!

Or not.
Well, the physical appearance can be written off as lazy sprite-work, but there is a problem with her numerical age as well. Since she worked for the family for ten years, if she really is 16 years old, then she had to have started when she was 6. EP7 indicated that Yasu herself was the first case of such a young(-looking) servant working in the mansion, and Shannon should have been 3-4 years older than her by that point anyway.

But then it occurs to me that Yasu wrote her message bottles starting in 1984 and the characters' ages might be off by X amount, depending on whether we got the raw stories or the "what if the game was run on the island in 1986" version. I'm not sure if that helps though.
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