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Old 2011-02-01, 17:24   Link #261
Kaijo
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I honestly wouldn't see it as trolling. In fact, it might be a bad idea to assume anything based on who's writing this.

See, it's all leading up to teaching Madoka a lesson. What happened to Mami, what happens to Sayaka, what happens to Kyoko, and what has happened (and might happen) to Homura. She initially wanted to be a magical girl to be cool and to help people, but all this serves to teach her that this business isn't a good one. It's why she's so scared now. We all know she's going to become one... but why? And what will her wish be?

When she gets over her fear and starts thinking about all this, she'll obviously feel that this has to end somehow. She'll finally get around to grilling Kyube about things, and because she asked directly, Kyube would be allowed to tell her. She'll be faced with the idea that she can stop it, but it will still mean risking her life as a magical girl for a time, until all witches are gone. And indeed, since no more new MG's will be created, she might have to travel and fight to get the last few witches.

So, Madoka, what are you going to do? Let everyone's death and suffering be in vain? Or find the courage to take up the mantle and end things once and for all?
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:42   Link #262
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
We all know she's going to become one... but why? And what will her wish be?
I wouldn't be so sure that she's really going to become one.

Anyway, it is an interesting theory. I just don't see it. And I could write a few paragraphs explaining why, but I won't, because with what we know now, it wouldn't be closer to be correct than yours really. It's all speculation at this point. Let's wait a see how things turn out!
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Old 2011-02-01, 17:53   Link #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I wouldn't be so sure that she's really going to become one.

Anyway, it is an interesting theory. I just don't see it. And I could write a few paragraphs explaining why, but I won't, because with what we know now, it wouldn't be closer to be correct than yours really. It's all speculation at this point. Let's wait a see how things turn out!
It is speculation, but no worse than anything else thrown up.

Curious as to why you think she won't? If she has the outfit and official pictures have her weapon as a bow, it would seem to indicate that. Also because of the title.

Though it would be a hilarious mindfuck if she never did, heh.
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Old 2011-02-01, 18:10   Link #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Curious as to why you think she won't? If she has the outfit and official pictures have her weapon as a bow, it would seem to indicate that. Also because of the title.

Though it would be a hilarious mindfuck if she never did, heh.
Well if you assume Urobuchi isn't trolling then he does say the OP is one big lie so we shouldn't deduce too much from it.
Also about the title,way back in an early interview Shinbo said it was him who insisted on putting "mahou shoujo" in the title because he thought that if he didn't people wouldn't consider the show a magical girl show,though I'm only paraphrasing a translation,here's the original quote (translated by sirn):



Quote:
タイトルの「魔法少女」にこだわったのは自分なんです。それがないと王道感がなくなるし、王道 から外れると なんでもありな作品になっちゃう気がして。ちゃんと「魔法少女」というカテゴリーに入れるもの にしたかった 、というのがあります。
It was me who is particular about "magical girl" in the title. I feel the show would lose a generic-feeling without it, and if we lose that generic, it could become anything else altogether. I want make a show that could be put in a "magical girl" category.
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Old 2011-02-01, 18:14   Link #265
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It is speculation, but no worse than anything else thrown up.

Curious as to why you think she won't? If she has the outfit and official pictures have her weapon as a bow, it would seem to indicate that. Also because of the title.

Though it would be a hilarious mindfuck if she never did, heh.
Never said it was worse. I do think it's interesting. And I don't believe in mindfuck. If the storyline is properly written, even if it's complex, I'll still get it. I'm pretty confident in my comprehension skills.

Oh, and I wouldn't trust official pictures and the like as an indication of anything that's happening in the show. They're trolling everybody with the official artwork.
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Old 2011-02-01, 18:30   Link #266
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Madoka never becoming a MG would be the ultimate troll. But, I wouldn't put it past them for actually doing just that, either. I kinda hope we'll get a scenario like this, but somehow, I think she will become one in the end.
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Old 2011-02-02, 14:50   Link #267
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Found someone's theory, but if it's right, it gives away pretty much the entire rest of the story. Would it be wrong to link to it and potentially spoil way too much of the surprise if it turns out to be true?
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Old 2011-02-02, 14:53   Link #268
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I don't see anything wrong with it. Interesting speculations are always welcome, and what do you think this thread is for?
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Old 2011-02-02, 15:01   Link #269
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I don't see anything wrong with it. Interesting speculations are always welcome, and what do you think this thread is for?
Well, as long as big theories are just as acceptable as individual speculations, I will -- don't wanna deliberately try to ruin anyone's surprise in the series if this thing turns out to have some truth to it

http://green-oval.net/cgi-board.pl/a/thread/45490454

Spoiler for TLDR:
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Old 2011-02-02, 15:31   Link #270
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Interesting, but that doesn't explain how there ever was a wish in the first place. How you can make a wish for a world with magic... when you are currently in a world without magic?

If there is always 1 witch per MG (because one witch is created per MG, and you can't create something out of nothing, which goes for witches, too), then there is a considerable shortage of witches. Because we've seen several witches and familiars pop in Mami's territory, which means there are territories without any witches. If an MG defeats even 2 witches, then half the population of MG's will never kill a witch.

I suppose it could mean that half the population of MG's die to their first witch or are killed by an MG before being able to kill a witch, but if true, that's... fairly stupid. Even Sayaka was able to kill a witch easily on her first go. And there would be no merit to Kyube at all, nor reason to what he's doing. He'd be creating MG's and witches at the same time, just to watch at least half the girls get killed outright.

Interesting theory, but if true, it comes with quite a few plot holes, and plot-induced stupidity.
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Old 2011-02-02, 15:35   Link #271
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Interesting, but that doesn't explain how there ever was a wish in the first place. How you can make a wish for a world with magic... when you are currently in a world without magic?
That could be the reason that Madoka could be the most powerful mage; Kyuubei mentions that she is special but wouldn't clarify it, really. I am not convinced of this theory, but the Prologue all but states that the current world is some kind of time-loop, so circular reasoning to understand the ending is a near certainty.

Quote:
If there is always 1 witch per MG (because one witch is created per MG, and you can't create something out of nothing, which goes for witches, too), then there is a considerable shortage of witches. Because we've seen several witches and familiars pop in Mami's territory, which means there are territories without any witches. If an MG defeats even 2 witches, then half the population of MG's will never kill a witch.

I suppose it could mean that half the population of MG's die to their first witch or are killed by an MG before being able to kill a witch, but if true, that's... fairly stupid. Even Sayaka was able to kill a witch easily on her first go. And there would be no merit to Kyube at all, nor reason to what he's doing. He'd be creating MG's and witches at the same time, just to watch at least half the girls get killed outright.
The magic girls aren't necessarily killing witches when they think they're killing witches. They could be killing only powerful familiars for the most part, and all the witch "deaths" coinciding with that of the counterpart mage, if they have that dual existence.
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Old 2011-02-02, 16:27   Link #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brain View Post
That could be the reason that Madoka could be the most powerful mage; Kyuubei mentions that she is special but wouldn't clarify it, really. I am not convinced of this theory, but the Prologue all but states that the current world is some kind of time-loop, so circular reasoning to understand the ending is a near certainty.
I'd be careful of inferences that lack definite proof. Since the human mind can see patterns where none exist, you'd essentially be believing your mind for making stuff up. Or even worse, letting yourself be led by a deliberate red herring. Theories and speculation are fine, but be real careful about what you draw them from, and make sure there is some actual evidence, not just guessing.

As I said, it is impossible for someone to make a magical wish in a world that doesn't have magic. Kyube did clarify why Madoka is special: she has great potential/talent for magic. Just like every other main magical girl in their own series.

Quote:
The magic girls aren't necessarily killing witches when they think they're killing witches. They could be killing only powerful familiars for the most part, and all the witch "deaths" coinciding with that of the counterpart mage, if they have that dual existence.
The theory states that a familiar is created at the same time as the MG, which then goes on to become a witch (or gives birth to a witch or something). So the odds get even worse. For every MG, there is 1 witch OR 1 familiar, and only the witches might drop grief seeds. That means that, on average, only 25% of MG's will ever get a grief seed.

That's a whole lot of girls going without. Heh, reminds me of MMO's I've played, where thousands of people camp one special monster with a 10% drop rate. But if Mami is any indication of an average MG, she's killed several witches in her career.

Bottom line: There's been a lot of theories proposed, and I've seen worse. But this one isn't much better, either, and has several problems to overcome if it wants to avoid plot holes. At the least, that person is just spouting off something like everyone else here; chances are low it has anything close to the truth.
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Old 2011-02-02, 16:35   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'd be careful of inferences that lack definite proof. Since the human mind can see patterns where none exist, you'd essentially be believing your mind for making stuff up. Or even worse, letting yourself be led by a deliberate red herring. Theories and speculation are fine, but be real careful about what you draw them from, and make sure there is some actual evidence, not just guessing.

As I said, it is impossible for someone to make a magical wish in a world that doesn't have magic. Kyube did clarify why Madoka is special: she has great potential/talent for magic. Just like every other main magical girl in their own series.
I am tremendously hesitant to say that words carrying no special meaning is more likely than words containing hidden meanings in this series. That's not what prior novels and anime of a similar fantasy tone have taught me to believe. But I'm sure we'll start getting more hints very soon.

Anyway, I can't wait to see what happens in the next episode! I would love to see Kyouko and Sayaka try to fight and discover that their magic powers are harmless to each other. Do you think the we'll get a new witch?

Cheers
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Old 2011-02-02, 18:22   Link #274
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I just thought up of something..

In ep 3, Mami tells Madoka to wish for a cake.

Now, what would that mean? Anyone here could think of an apparantly more useful wish. Immortality. All witches gone. No more magic. Barbeque Kyube. Whatever. But no, Mami did not tell Madoka to wish for those things..but instead, tells her to wish for a cake. Mami seems to have a lot of time to think about the concept of wishing, but she ended up telling Madoka to just get a cake.

Therefore, I think that Kyube's wish, for some reason, is uncabable of solving any problems that the MGs are currently facing, and Mami knows that. If this reason truly exist, then it would cover up the "why don't you just make that wish" problem. As for what that reason is..neh, I have no clue!
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Old 2011-02-02, 18:55   Link #275
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It sounds kind of like reverse psychology. "If you can't think of anything, wish for something silly like a cake!" in order to make sure Madoka does the opposite and puts a lot of thought and care into what the wish will be.
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Old 2011-02-02, 18:57   Link #276
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I think she just wasn't being serious. Sometimes a cake is just a cake. =)

Robin: Golly gee, Batman, perhaps ingesting a wish-cake solves all the problems but Mami couldn't say!

Batman: No, wait Robin, that's not it. Mami was clearly indicating Christmas Cake, and you know what that means...

Robin: Holy belated matrimony, Batman; Mami didn't want Madoka to grow up still unwed by her 25th birthday!

Batman: Correct. But it has a double meaning; a cake is also used in a wedding ceremony.

Robin: So Mami was proposing to Madoka that they get wed before they turn 25?

Batman: And also that she should invest in in Goldman Sachs for 1 year before withdrawing funds. Because that company consumes the most party cakes, due to blowing the most money because they make the most money.

Robin: Holy celebratory cakes, Batman! It all makes sense now...

In short, try not to overthink things.
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Old 2011-02-02, 20:15   Link #277
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I wonder if Madoka would be allowed to wish for something like "I wish for the power that can defeat all the witches forever". It could be neat to see what would result from that, especially if she only actually makes a wish and becomes a magical girl at the end of the show (or never at all, as some other people have speculated already ). Would she wipe out the whole system, or would it backfire and just give her the normal magical girl abilities (and therefore hint at something about the ordinary magical girl that may be the key in defeating witches for good?).
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Old 2011-02-02, 20:17   Link #278
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Batman: And also that she should invest in in Goldman Sachs for 1 year before withdrawing funds. Because that company consumes the most party cakes, due to blowing the most money because they make the most money.

Robin: Holy celebratory cakes, Batman! It all makes sense now...

In short, try not to overthink things.
I suppose this is a bad time to discuss the share that Goldman Sachs owns in the company responsible for the distribution of this series...

... but then I suspect that's what you meant by overthinking, right?

Or could it be that Magicka Madoka is actually a parable about the evils of the corporate state (CEOs as the witches, other board members as the familiars), which would explain the sterile "good" facade we see at the beginning underpinned by the slowly seeping evil...

I think I'll just stop here
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Old 2011-02-03, 02:54   Link #279
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I think she just wasn't being serious. Sometimes a cake is just a cake. =)

But that's not fun

I don't mind crazy speculation early in the series,later on there won't be as much room for it since we'll have more knowledge of the world,so there'll be less things to speculate about.
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:38   Link #280
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Since it's going into speculation territory, moving it here.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I maintain the theory for now. Homura is a MG with a committed wish, so obviously _she_ can't use a miracle to "save" Sayaka as contract-payment anymore. I see no reason why this would preclude the "wish Madoka out" theory, because back then, she had NOT yet committed her miracle.
She might not be able to, but it just means if you're correct, then wishing someone back from the dead is possible. Still waiting for Madoka to think about this. At the least, unless Homura tells her outright (and here she just seemed to nudge or misdirect Madoka in that direction), then Homura knows that Madoka should eventually think that she could revive Mami.

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What's her reason to keep Madoka from becoming a MG? Why does she go to these lengths? Why does Homura have the knowledge from the past? Why does she bother to comfort her? Why did she react so strongly when Madoka claimed she'd never forget Homura?

So far I haven't been unable to come up with a better explanation than "they knew each other in the past", which consequently poses the question "why did Madoka forget?" - plausible theories welcome. Until then I'll stick with my old "she wished her out" one, because it would explain all questions from the former paragraph very logically.
Your last question requires a bit of an assumption. But I could postulate that Homura is a broken and traumatized individual that doesn't want anyone to become MG's. Or perhaps Madoka becoming an MG was bad for a different reason, say, Homura was led to believe that Madoka becoming an MG would lead to bad things happening in the world. Or ending the system, and Homura is so invested in it, she doesn't want it ended.

Or perhaps it's all Madoka's dream/nightmare, and killing Madoka would end that.

Quote:
Which leads to one of the most important aspects of this ep: Very obviously this "ideal" is the opposite of how MGs are in this anime. Homura even went so far to say that they are "fatal flaws" in MGs and essentially says that these traits will kill Sayaka, just like they killed Mami.

So what's going to happen to her, in your reading? Do you think that your "standard MG ideal" going to prevail? Or that Homura's much more gloomy outlook is going to prove correct?
Not sure, it all depends on whether this is an idealistic universe or a cynical one. Even in an idealistic universe, there can be death and some struggle before the ideal wins. Since Sayaka isn't the main character, she's not as plot-protected, but it would be quite the scam if Madoka saved the day by being idealistic, and yet they killed Sayaka for being idealistic earlier. So if it's cynical, then Sayaka would die. If it's idealistic, Sayaka may be hurt, but she'll eventually do the sidekick thing and buy time for Madoka to do her thing.

Quote:
I think it's clear that he is NOT her boyfriend. Rather, Sayaka WANTS him to become her boyfriend (see ep4, beginning).

Unlike ep4, where he snapped at Sayaka in a fairly mean way, he has been pretty nice this time, and even apologized for his trait to be mean to her. I wonder if this indicates that Sayaka will have her "unspoken" wish granted after all - or if this is just a red herring to make the fall even deeper.
I don't see a fall yet, and I don't see her wanting a boyfriend yet. All we've got is possibly some blushes. Watching Nanoha has made me less likely to rely on subtext for determining feelings; I don't want to end up a NanoFate'er, heh. So having learned that lesson, they seem just like friends for now, and she's been trying to keep his spirits up all this time.

Of course, that means it can still hurt if he's injured or killed. And actually, it would hurt less if they were just friends, rather than if they were bf/gf. If somehow they become that, it might be a sign.
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