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Old 2011-02-02, 13:22   Link #16121
Nanya01
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How about this for a possibility?

The Eclipse was made before the Bureau, during the wars by planets who had no mages and were tired of the fighting that happened by mages that spilled onto their planets, doing massive harm.

Then the Bureau gets made, ends the wars, and sucks up most of the mages.

Unfortunately, the Eclipse users were from planets that HATE mages in all forms.

They tend to avoid going near Bureau space because they want to kill everyone on those worlds.

So, in short, they don't like the Bureau because they come from places that hates magic users and the Bureau did nothing to help out those worlds after the wars were settled.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:25   Link #16122
Justin_Brett
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And then AEC devices were useless. If THEY designed them, why don't they like, work?

^ that would work far better.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:26   Link #16123
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I don't think we got to see anyone hit by one yet. Only good thing we saw was Subaru did break a sword.

Not working so far is just an execution issue. Like saying a glock is better than a rocket launcher.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:30   Link #16124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And then AEC devices were useless. If THEY designed them, why don't they like, work?
They are still prototypes, and it still depends on the skill of the mages. They do, work, though, damaging the Hucks in every case where they've connected. I'm betting that, after this skirmish, the weapons will be tweaked and improved. Combined with RF6 now knowing exactly what they are up against, their next fights will go much better.

Ultimately, the shadow people don't really care, since the Hucks seem to operate outside the Bureau and don't seem to have a Zest-level thirst for coming after them. If RF6 and the AEC weapons work, good. If they don't, they at least get some data. A win/win situation. But they are betting on RF6 coming through. Given their track record, it's a good bet.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:35   Link #16125
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I liked the previous theory of the AEC being protoptypes of future Alt-modes for the real devices, i know this is very unlikely but it will be cool.

Btw, if i remember correct War Hammer's NEXT design says something about the lines of being a prototype for mass production ....somehow the mental image of a regular TSAB soldier wielding a Vita-style giant hammer cracks me up xDDDD!!!
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:38   Link #16126
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Plasma Pile punctured a few holes in the ship, with just Vita as the wielder. Equip a few dozen mages with the weapon, and you could easily bring down the ship, even if the production version is less powerful. Quantity over quality (Hey, that describes my writing!).
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:48   Link #16127
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Just wonder if they have the strenght and body structure necessary to wield such a thing and to be fair the War Hammer blew a single hole on the ship but yeah i take our point.

Hayate goes a little overkill with the colossal iceberg xD.
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Old 2011-02-02, 14:08   Link #16128
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
There is more than one way to control or threaten someone, but you'll note that the Brain Council and Regius were pretty stupid when it came to Jail. They gave him money to build an army, without any real way of controlling him if he decided to go rogue. So precedent has been set.
Actually I wouldn't say they were completely stupid. It was mostly due to a lack of a very important piece of info. They didn't know about the Cradle. They didn't know it was on Mid let alone that Jail had found it and was using it to mass produce drones.

A single scientist with a dozen cyborgs and a few dozen drones wouldn't be much of a threat. And without the Cradle and the opportunity it represented Jail might not have gone rogue.

Just saying.

Also - "escudo" means "shield" in latin based languages and the kanji don't say battleship which surprised me. The last character is "small boat" so it says "Flying war boat". Nice to know the designers consider that "small". Each of the red squares that are pointed out is a laser and the big round one is the center is the main cannon.
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Old 2011-02-02, 14:09   Link #16129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Hayate goes a little overkill with the colossal iceberg xD.
Overkill? In Nanoha? Surely, you jest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaterasu1963 View Post
Also - "escudo" means "shield" in latin based languages and the kanji don't say battleship which surprised me. The last character is "small boat" so it says "Flying war boat". Nice to know the designers consider that "small". Each of the red squares that are pointed out is a laser and the big round one is the center is the main cannon.
Also, "escadre" in Romance languages refers to a small ship formation. Also, EH is pretty small compared to the Saint's Cradle. Even considering that the Cradle was the biggest ship the Belkans had, the others must have been similarly massive.
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Old 2011-02-02, 14:23   Link #16130
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However, like you, I am minding the seemingly flimsy way the nanoha girls earned their brass, if they were dragged in a long ongoing war and have to fight enough battles that would have killed a WWI veteran over 9000 times, their promotion would have been believable. But then we see Hayate carrying the idiot ball and think, "Is she really *insert military rank here*?"
If i remember correctly, this was a plot point in StrikerS, people being aware that MAge were promoted much more quickly and as such not taking their ranks seriously at all.

Hayate complained about it once, and then iirc in the epilogue/soundstage she admitted they might have been right.
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Old 2011-02-02, 22:47   Link #16131
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I don't mind the age that much. IF we are shown the deeds and the circumstances that earned them the brass they can wear.

This is why I am not even protesting at how Reinhard Von Lohengramm climb up the military and political ladder. Reinhard had the context (an ongoing war) and the deeds (his victories against the Free Planets Alliance) and we are shown them through the whole course of Legend of Galactic Heroes, we are shown why he is deserving that ranks and his personality traits justifies them.

However, like you, I am minding the seemingly flimsy way the nanoha girls earned their brass, if they were dragged in a long ongoing war and have to fight enough battles that would have killed a WWI veteran over 9000 times, their promotion would have been believable. But then we see Hayate carrying the idiot ball and think, "Is she really *insert military rank here*?"

Also I would suggest people who have not done it to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes, it's an incredible series, be it in character management, development but also in its world building and history. You can see a young man, Julian Minci, wise beyond the years, done right. But it is not just Julian, the whole cast of the series is praiseworthy for how they are used in the story, in a way that "make sense" in the universe.
I suspect Hayate's (and her friends') quick rise in the ranks is attributed to the Bureau's structure as a bureaucracy.

Despite the series' repeated hints of universal unrest, Administrated Space with Midchilda at its centre is shown to be more or less peaceful. In a nation blessed/cursed with a long period of peace, without any wars as a catalyst, the only way to promote officers is via length of service period (your rank rises with each period of years spent working there) and certifications. Note that it's certifications, which may or may not equate to real ability in the requested field. So as long you've passed the test and have a piece of offical acknowledgement certifying that you're eligible for this position, this job, it's yours. This is how a military that has become a bureaucracy works, and which is imho how the Bureau works.

In this light, Hayate is a good example of how this system works. She was dragged into this business since the age of nine and with the (dubious) advantage of being the inheritor of the Tome's legacy and her own personal guard that has proved to be good fighters that have rapport with each other. This pretty much gives her a fairly good headstart despite her connection to the BoD Incident. After she become a Bureau employee, she also spent much of her time going through officer training that would prepare her for a leadership position. Given her circumstances (and her complaints about RS users being convenient tools in chapter 3 of the A's to StrikerS manga), she should have seen a fair deal more action than most other employees of her same age (remember Teana's comments in the same manga about the absurdity of a 9yo doing the kind of things the Aces have done; apparently Nanoha and co are the exception and not the norm). This field experience, even just a little, serves as a bonus to further boost her career, especially if she manage to complete her tasks with expected if not exceeded results. This too can be applied to Fate and Nanoha.

So in short what do we have here? People who (to be fair to them) may have potential for greatness, have spent a good deal of time in a bureaucracy, come with the right certification(s) and a fair amount of field experience. In the eyes of a peace-time establishment that appears to have fading memories of widespread warfare directly involving/affecting itself, this is enough to heap promotion after promotion on their way, regardless whether they are actually ready for their positions. This is the chief problem with a bureaucratic para/military; while the people assigned look good on paper, whether they have the actual experience and/or talent to pull through is another thing. Peace has a crippling effect on military efficiency if not guarded against and considering the Bureau's blunders and the Aces' not-all-impressive track records so far, I guess they've already fallen victim to that effect.

Imho, if Tsuzuki understood the failings of the Bureau and ficitional society he has created, and adjusted his story to show those failings and how his characters struggle with each other, this problem might not have existed, or at least be not as glaring as it is now. Unfortunately it seems that his enthusiaism in SRW (and perhaps fan and corporate pressure) has weakened his storytelling to showing off new mecha parts (where now art thou, magic?) and one-on-one show-downs, instead of developing better tactics (I want my group fights, thank you very much, since the Bureau is an enforcement group afterall and should place teamwork over individual heroism/show-offs) and a more complex, engaging story (I refrain from accusing him of totally ignoring complexity in human character and relationships and social issues, since imho he has at least try to work on this area with Force). Take a page from Shirow Masamune, Tsuzuki-san, and learn.
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Old 2011-02-02, 23:16   Link #16132
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Regarding TSAB's possible skeletons in the closet, note that the ones most likely for establishing those hundreds of skeletons in the closet are already dead.

But considering how the High Council seems to have the 'set-up' of middle-men or a multi-layered supervision over their less ethical projects, it wouldn't be strange if projects continued on anyway, or if the cells involved with 'Experiment ##' have no direct knowledge that they're actually secretly working for TSAB. Or possess the ability to press forward even with the primary beneficiaries dead.

Assuming TSAB's responsible for the some dastardly things, it doesn't mean the ones who are charged to take care of their dirty secret are privy to the ways to deal with them.
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Old 2011-02-03, 01:29   Link #16133
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Ah, we have some great ideas here, and these ideas are what I meant by realism. Too tipsy to debate, time for fanfiction.
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Old 2011-02-03, 02:00   Link #16134
Akiyoshi
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It's suppossed that Ch. 13 of Nanoha's Blackest Night is already out don't ya?
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Old 2011-02-03, 02:33   Link #16135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
It's suppossed that Ch. 13 of Nanoha's Blackest Night is already out don't ya?
Shamal as Green Lantern, here to save Signum the day?
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Old 2011-02-03, 02:38   Link #16136
Akiyoshi
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Shamal as Green Lantern, here to save Signum the day?
Unless Signum returns as a Blue Lantern(or get's wrongly resurrected/possesed as a Black Lantern xDU).

By the way, Tsuzuki has definetly topped himself with the dark hour of the heroes this time ...the comeback must be glorious xD.
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Old 2011-02-03, 03:11   Link #16137
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Thread closed.

Please direct all Nanoha Force discussion to the Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion thread,

all Vivid discussion to the Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid thread,

and all other Nanoha manga discussion to the Nanoha General Manga Discussion thread.
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