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Old 2011-01-28, 20:06   Link #7721
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I will state again, we have been given nothing that says that Hinagiku and the blade's presence is necessary for Alice to regain anything at this point. She willingly gave up an opportunity to cause more anguish for Hinagiku and thus increase her power, for what seems like no viable reason. She seems to be doing so simply for her own pleasures, making Hinagiku nothing more than a toy in her hand.
It was already stated in 301 that Alice needs that blade to regain her power.http://www.mangareader.net/hayate-th...t-butler/301/7

Hypothetically, even if Alice does attempt to suck Hinagiku's life force dry or use Hinagiku as a toy to regain her power, that would be morally wrong, not immaturity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Mikado used the power he had for his own gain, not for power/wealth.
Athena recovered the family fortune of the Tennos from the Sanzenin family, likely using the same methods used in first gaining the money, so being a simple inheritor simply doesn't work.

If Nagi were to have inherited the Sanzenin fortune, wouldn't you agree that on first glance, you would make the statement of belief that she had acquired the money herself, and thus used the same methods, even though she hasn't shown a tenancy for blackmail herself?
"Power/wealth" is almost always associated with personal "own gain." In the end, he was still used his power to achieve something he wants which is the same as what Alice was doing (although not to his degree).


If you wanted to say that Athena is manipulative or could be manipulative, I won't disagree. (Although I must say that I used the term businessmen who's mostly manipulative to associate with Mikado.)


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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Miki probably gained and used her skills as a manipulator on others, but when she found Hinagiku such a fun target, focused her abilities on the single target. Her manipulations are for others, which would make her an 'emotionally mature' manipulator, she has also been shown to be clear and concise about her feelings.
Athena is using the manipulation of others for her own benefit, thus leaving her open to the 'emotionally immature' tag.
There are mature people who play immature acts and doing some immature acts, such as teasing, do not make one immature. Mentally immature and immature acts are different things. I said Miki doing immature acts, but she's definitely mentally mature.

For the bold: Do you realize how wrong that sound?

Countless intelligent individuals manipulate idiotic persons each day for their own benefit. It doesn't make them "emotionally immature" for using others to gain more wealth and power. If you are a fool, you will be used by the others.That's how the business world always work.

Horo and Kraft from Spice and Wolf, Light, Lelouch, etc. etc. etc. No, they are not emotionally immature but are intelligence and wise.

---
Although I don't agree on what Alice did being an immature, but the possibility of her being "emotionally immature" is quite high. Right now, it seems that her wisdom and knowledge is almost like those of typical children, not even close to the 6yo Athena in the EotW arc.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-01-28 at 21:36.
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Old 2011-01-29, 12:53   Link #7722
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Quote:
Horo and Kraft from Spice and Wolf, Light, Lelouch, etc. etc. etc. No, they are not emotionally immature but are intelligence and wise.
You are completely correct , you've said everything what i wanted to say, but more clearly. Lelouch is a perfect example of one who is mature and intelligent, however he has done some acts that bastion refers to as unmature. But as you said zodanhko, mental immaturity and immature acts are different.
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When one says immature acts, there are many forms of acts that are can and are based on opinions. In a sense im somewhat more mature than the norm, seeing the common masses as fools due to their illogical ways, however, my interests and some acts may be considered immature by others.
----------------
Quote:
Athena is using the manipulation of others for her own benefit, thus leaving her open to the 'emotionally immature' tag.
In a sense, it depends on what the benefit is( which is to regain her power ), and her mentality while doing so. I don't see how you can think that her want to regain her powers makes be a candidate to be labeled as Immature. What was your approach that made you think so?
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Quote:
Miki probably gained and used her skills as a manipulator on others, but when she found Hinagiku such a fun target, focused her abilities on the single target. Her manipulations are for others, which would make her an 'emotionally mature' manipulator, she has also been shown to be clear and concise about her feelings. Also, being clear and concise about her feelings doesn't mean shes mature, it just shows her feelings are more easier for Her to understand. Many clear headed and intelligent people may be confused about how they truely feel, but of you were talking about if people denies how they truely feel, then thats a different story
Instead of looking at this with a personal view, look at it with a general view since we all have different opinions. There is the possibility that Miki is just doing it to tease her, and what do you mean her manipulation is for others? Anyway, like i said before, its the mentality and not the act that determines whether they are immature or not. the way your assuming things, you may it sound as if its a fact that Miki is emotionally mature when we are all assuming

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Old 2011-01-30, 20:25   Link #7723
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Would make her "I'm still a fresh 17-year old" statements all the more ironic, huh?
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Old 2011-02-02, 02:02   Link #7724
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
So... Maria would actually be even older?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I have a tendency to like characters who had a vast of worldly knowledge and experience with physical features of an adolescence, like CC from CG and Horo from S&W, so Maria would be a much more interesting character to me if what Bastion said is true. So, Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2011-02-02, 02:07   Link #7725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
I have a tendency to like characters who had a vast of worldly knowledge and experience with physical features of an adolescence, like CC from CG and Horo from S&W, so Maria would be a much more interesting character to me if what Bastion said is true. So, Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe what you're saying is, you like the Legal Jailbait looking characters
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Old 2011-02-02, 05:20   Link #7726
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I've just finished reading the latest chapter. There's not much to spoil about, since it was pretty much a slice-of-life chapter, but in my opinion, it was rather nice. Either way, this chapter confirmed Athena is indeed lacking her memories and her powers, and all she remembers is that the person Athena trusts the most is Hayate.

I believe this is rather important, considering Athena, right now as Alice, should have the mentality of a 6 years old child, yet she has that too-mature-for-her-age personality from TEotW arc. I'm bringing this up because many people seemed to have found her personality a bit too odd back in the previously mentioned arc, and thought she may have had that behaviour because she had probably spent several years in the Royal Garden. So, the fact she currently has no memories and still shows that personality makes me believe this is simply how she is.
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Old 2011-02-03, 01:13   Link #7727
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I thought this chapter was quite funny, personally

A-tan's ringlet curls as a striking resemblance to chocolate bread was cute But was it just me, or did she act quite similar to Lady Nagi in those moods?

As for Athena and maturity, for a 6 year old girl perhaps. I know for one, there is no way I'd be thinking I should be adjusting my body clock at her age. I didn't worry about those things back then, not that I could remember, but I feel as a child that young it wouldn't have crossed my mind, haha.
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Old 2011-02-03, 01:35   Link #7728
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Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
As for Athena and maturity, for a 6 year old girl perhaps. I know for one, there is no way I'd be thinking I should be adjusting my body clock at her age. I didn't worry about those things back then, not that I could remember, but I feel as a child that young it wouldn't have crossed my mind, haha.
I don't think she ever did think with a 6 year old mentality. Even back when we first met her she defiantly tried to sound older than she looked.
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Old 2011-02-03, 02:23   Link #7729
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I don't think she ever did think with a 6 year old mentality. Even back when we first met her she defiantly tried to sound older than she looked.
Mmm - that's the thing, even when she first appeared she was definitely thinking older than what would be an average 6 year old girl. Even without her memories, she's acting pretty much the same in terms to personality. Only now she has a more ordinary feel to it, if that makes sense? Which is understandable given the situation, I guess.
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Old 2011-02-03, 03:21   Link #7730
zodanhko
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I'm glad that Alice's personality and mentality haven't change much, although her wisdom and confidence plummeted quite heavily, comparing to the Athena in the EotW arc. It seems like Alice is treating herself like a different entity from Athena because of the sealed memories; and, I liked how this "new entity" , even with no past memories, sought for Hayate due to feelings that Athena left for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I believe what you're saying is, you like the Legal Jailbait looking characters
I don't believe so since I'm not really interested in moe and innocent characters, but quite the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I don't think she ever did think with a 6 year old mentality. Even back when we first met her she defiantly tried to sound older than she looked.
Yep, she surely never once had the mentality of a child. Right now, it's difficult for me to think of anyone in the cast reaching the 6 year old Athena's wisdom and knowledge with everything she did 10 years ago.
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Old 2011-02-03, 03:40   Link #7731
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Well, Isumi seems to know more shit than what seems to show. In addition, whilst she doesn't have the bossy side of Athena, I don't think she's any less mature. Hell, she was the first person to tame Nagi after Yukariko and Maria.
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Old 2011-02-03, 04:19   Link #7732
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My intention was not to compare the maturity since I'm sure there are many of Athena's level. The wisdom I spoke of was referring to her understanding, knowing, and dealing with matters, such as with manipulative individuals. Athena had worked with Mikado at the age of 6 to obtain the Power of God; I don't think there are many that has the capability to work as Mikado's equal. Also, at such an age, she singlehandedly re-obtained the inheritance her parent left her in which the opponents were most likely adults. And, she could casually deal with assassins whom she wouldn't mind letting go despite knowing they could return (and they did with more fail attempts).
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Old 2011-02-03, 06:30   Link #7733
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Old 2011-02-03, 07:05   Link #7734
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Did she... Named the dog [Armageddon] ?
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Old 2011-02-03, 13:37   Link #7735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
My intention was not to compare the maturity since I'm sure there are many of Athena's level. The wisdom I spoke of was referring to her understanding, knowing, and dealing with matters, such as with manipulative individuals. Athena had worked with Mikado at the age of 6 to obtain the Power of God; I don't think there are many that has the capability to work as Mikado's equal. Also, at such an age, she singlehandedly re-obtained the inheritance her parent left her in which the opponents were most likely adults. And, she could casually deal with assassins whom she wouldn't mind letting go despite knowing they could return (and they did with more fail attempts).
Exactly my reasoning for believing that she's older than she looks, plus in the pre-obtaining of the Power of the Gods, she hasn't been depicted with Mikado while an unknown male (probably Himegami) has been, and we know she's met him because of their interaction after she was freed from the RG.
Why wouldn't they depict a known variable together with known variables except that it's not someone we would recognize as themselves.
She would have had to be even younger than 6 to work with Mikado as well, since she appeared to be 6 after spending time in the time-defying RG. Depending on how long she spent in there before Hayate stumbled in, she may have needed to be pre-walking age before going in, possibly even pre-speaking.
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2011-02-03, 15:28   Link #7736
zodanhko
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Exactly my reasoning for believing that she's older than she looks, plus in the pre-obtaining of the Power of the Gods, she hasn't been depicted with Mikado while an unknown male (probably Himegami) has been, and we know she's met him because of their interaction after she was freed from the RG.
Why wouldn't they depict a known variable together with known variables except that it's not someone we would recognize as themselves.
She would have had to be even younger than 6 to work with Mikado as well, since she appeared to be 6 after spending time in the time-defying RG. Depending on how long she spent in there before Hayate stumbled in, she may have needed to be pre-walking age before going in, possibly even pre-speaking.
I think your perception could be a possibility although I don't quite agree on reason being based on the RG's concept of time.

I think most of us had watched DBZ, so I'll use a dimension in DBZ with the concept of time identical to the Royal Garden, which is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

For the HTC, 1 year inside=1 day outside
For the RG, 2 months inside=5 days outside

Trunks spend 1 year inside the HTC for training which is equivalent to 1 day in reality (normal time). After existed the HTC, he was 1 year older (with longer hair, taller and such) while every else was only a day older. Although the HTC allowed him to have much more time to train, he was also growing older equivalent to the amount of time he used for the training. So, if Athena spend 2 months inside the RG, she would be two months older whilel everyone else would only be 5 days older. From this perspective, the Royal Garden and the HTC actually aged them faster instead of slowed their time (unless there's a mistake in the translation).

With all the magics that have been showing, I won't be surprised if Athena retained the memories of her previous life or something. Or, perhaps, she's cursed to become a child with her memories being erased after a certain age. There's a whole range of possibility with magic (and the Power of God and God) being involved.

There is still so much that we need to know. Although, right now, I think that's just the knowledge she gained due to her intellect and motivation (after her parents died).

Last edited by zodanhko; 2011-02-03 at 15:49.
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Old 2011-02-03, 15:46   Link #7737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
She would have had to be even younger than 6 to work with Mikado as well, since she appeared to be 6 after spending time in the time-defying RG. Depending on how long she spent in there before Hayate stumbled in, she may have needed to be pre-walking age before going in, possibly even pre-speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
From this perspective, the Royal Garden ... actually aged them faster instead of slowed their time (unless there's a mistake in the translation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Without all the magics that have been showing, I won't be surprised if Athena retained the memories of her previous life or something. Or, perhaps, she's cursed to become a child with her memories being erased after a certain age. There's a whole range of possibility with magic (and the Power of God and God) being involved.
Except that, by your own statement, there's a way for her to recover her original age and power, and implied continue aging, which would be trying to indicate that there's a way around the curse, if that's what it actually does, and not erase after a certain age.

That may not be the full extent of the curse either, since she'd said that her curse was worse than Himegami or Mikado's, and it doesn't seem to be all that significant yet. Though we also don't know the curses placed on the other two.
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Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2011-02-03 at 16:07.
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Old 2011-02-03, 16:03   Link #7738
zodanhko
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Except that, by your own statement, there's a way for her to recover her original age and power, and implied continue aging, which would be trying to indicate that there's a way around the curse, if that's what it actually does, and not erase after a certain age.
Good point. She, perhaps, might not able to break the curse so far. I was just trying to come a with a possible scenario here although it may be somewhat shallow.
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Old 2011-02-03, 16:13   Link #7739
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Did she... Named the dog [Armageddon] ?
I know of a great white shark named Snookums.
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Old 2011-02-03, 16:21   Link #7740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Did she... Named the dog [Armageddon] ?
I know of a great white shark named Snookums.
And this is Fumi we're talking about.
(Notice that a large dog is one of the things the page image depicts XD)
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
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