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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Rating
Perfect 10 40 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 40 33.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 28 23.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 6.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.83%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.83%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-03, 16:42   Link #41
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post



Isn't it worse if characters get developed before they die?
Nope. Because it leaves time for you to get attached to them and makes the impact of their death much stronger.

From a meta fictional point of view, it is actually worse for a character to live and barely get screentime/attention/development. Any fan of Hayate Yagami from the Nanoha fandom can tell you that.
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Old 2011-02-03, 16:44   Link #42
Mentar
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I was just teasing you a bit. Should have guessed you'd get on the defensive right away.
Well sorry for reacting like this when multiple people make a ballyhoo about me "being dead wrong" and "changing predictions several times" when it's simply not true. Nothing like some good old "have you stopped beating your wife" style humor to brighten the day...

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Originally Posted by Kaijo
I'm actually becoming a bit annoyed Homura. Sure, I can understand you don't want Madoka to become an MG (although why it's just Madoka and not anyone else is a bit strange, and would be something I'd question if I were Madoka). But her actions don't line up with her stated goals. At least, if Homura was previously friends with Madoka, then she should know the girl well enough to know that Madoka will always worry about her friends.
Not sure if I understand you here. What are "her stated goals" which she contradicts by her actions?

Quote:
Thus, the best way to keep Madoka on the sidelines, is to team up with Sayaka and keep the girl alive. Hopefully she'll realize this after this clash. Otherwise, it just seems to be real strange inconsistency as a cheap way to drum up the drama of "will she/won't she become an MG? Look how we're torturing her!"
And you don't think that if Homura would team up with Sayaka, Madoka wouldn't be even MORE compelled to join this wonderful MG team? I think that this would entice her even more to become a MG herself.

Quote:
It's also strange that she wouldn't worry about Sayaka at all, and indeed, chalk her up to being dead. In one way, I can see it, because if Sayaka is an idealistic character in a cynical universe, then yeah, she's dead. But that means Homura is an author avatar; she shouldn't know this. In a cynical universe, only strength matters. At the least, if Homura values Madoka at all, then she should be trying to help Madoka's friend, because that would make Madoka happy.
I believe that Homura's reasoning is that Madoka becoming a MG is a prime disaster to avoid. She owes Sayaka absolutely nothing - in fact, Sayaka has been unreasonably hostile towards Homura from day one. She also became a MG for her own reasons despite all warnings.

Homura's point of view is that being a MG is a death sentence, for good reason. And that every MG is condemned to lose everyone they love and care for (see ep1). This is entirely consistent with her advice to "give up on Sayaka".

Quote:
This speaks to me that Homura isn't trying to prevent Madoka from being an MG out of any sort of friendship, but for another reason. Something that she perceives as being bad happening if Madoka does. But yet Madoka can't be outright killed, either.
Possibly so, I wouldn't rule that out. As a counterpoint I'd list ep4, in which Homura proactively tried to comfort Madoka after visiting Mami's apartment. It indicates to me that she's trying to help Madoka - as long as it doesn't directly violate the "keep her from becoming a MG" priority goal.

Quote:
Still, you dumb woman; you should team up with Sayaka, and reassure Madoka that everything will be fine and that you'll take care of everything, so Madoka doesn't need to become an MG.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. First of all, there seems to be a mechanic that runs contrary to MGs cooperating which we don't know about yet (since the idea to cooperate isn't THAT outlandish - other MGs should have thought about that before, too). And even so - if Sayaka and Homura would cooperate as MGs, wouldn't that rather encourage Madoka to become the same? I think it would.

Last edited by Mentar; 2011-02-03 at 16:59.
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Old 2011-02-03, 17:05   Link #43
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The conflicts between MG has started.
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Old 2011-02-03, 17:06   Link #44
monir
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'm actually becoming a bit annoyed Homura. Sure, I can understand you don't want Madoka to become an MG (although why it's just Madoka and not anyone else is a bit strange, and would be something I'd question if I were Madoka). But her actions don't line up with her stated goals. At least, if Homura was previously friends with Madoka, then she should know the girl well enough to know that Madoka will always worry about her friends.
I kind of see your point, but it needs to be pointed out also that we still don't have enough to convey any of Homura's feeling toward the matter why she strongly feels in this certain way. I still haven't figured out the true reason for why she wanted to kill Kyube in the initial episode. What ever the reason is, it is certainly tied to the way she is bent on protecting/preventing Madoka to take the wrong step. At the moment we are assuming the "wrong step" is Madoka's becoming a Mahou Shoujo. For all we know it could also be that Homura doesn't want Madoka to be a Mahou Shoujo just because she has to attain any personal goal desperately to change or give shape to an imminent outcome.

For me Homura's personality is fascinating because the mystery that surrounds her and her initial act at trying to kill Kyube. Kyube was real creepy in this episode when he slyly brought the option to Madoka to sign the contract so she could stop those two from fighting and to protect Sayaka.
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Old 2011-02-03, 17:23   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Not sure if I understand you here. What are "her stated goals" which she contradicts by her actions?
She obviously doesn't want Madoka to become an MG. The "why" is still up in the air. If I were Homura, I'd analyze what may make Madoka make the decision. Right now, Madoka is obviously worried about Sayaka and is flat out asking Homura to help her and not fight with her. If I were Homura, I'd go, "Alright, I'll help her, if you promise not to become an MG. There isn't room for more than two MG's around here, anyway."

Unless Homura is deliberately out for herself and thus doesn't want Sayaka in on the grief seed action, I can't see why she wouldn't make some sort of deal. As we see later in the episode, Homura shows up anyway to save Sayaka, right before Madoka could make the choice.

Quote:
I believe that Homura's reasoning is that Madoka becoming a MG is a prime disaster to avoid. She owes Sayaka absolutely nothing - in fact, Sayaka has been unreasonably hostile towards Homura from day one. She also became a MG for her own reasons despite all warnings.
Perhaps Sayaka has, but with good reason, because Homura seemed rather hostile. And also because Homura seemed hostile and demanding with Madoka. Nothing sets a friend off, like seeing their friend being bullied.

Quote:
Homura's point of view is that being a MG is a death sentence, for good reason. And that every MG is condemned to lose everyone they love and care for (see ep1). This is entirely consistent with her advice to "give up on Sayaka".
While I'd agree Homura likely thinks that way, I'd have to state again that being an MG isn't a death sentence more so than anything else. Life itself is a death sentence, so it all depends on the person and how they choose to live their life. If Sayaka wants to live her life fighting for "justice" and to help others, then it really doesn't matter. Plenty of people do dangerous things day in and day out; look at what happened to Steve Irwin.

Now, if there is some cynical force at play that deliberately kills off everyone and everything that an MG loves, then you'll have a point. But at this stage, there is no reason to suspect that.

Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree here. First of all, there seems to be a mechanic that runs contrary to MGs cooperating which we don't know about yet (since the idea to cooperate isn't THAT outlandish - other MGs should have thought about that before, too). And even so - if Sayaka and Homura would cooperate as MGs, wouldn't that rather encourage Madoka to become the same? I think it would.
If there is some mechanic, then Mami obviously wasn't aware of it. She seemed quite happy with the idea. And as I said, all Homura has to do is make a deal with Madoka, "I'll protect Sayaka and help her as best I can, and in return, you don't become an MG." Protecting her from Kyoko would be a good start.

Edit: I'm going to a little farther here. Homura says it is impossible to raise the dead.... but she's clearly not impartial in this. Madoka finally got around to thinking this (which proves she wasn't thinking it in ep4), so what's the obvious conclusion? If Homura told her it was, it is likely Madoka might have made that wish. It still might be impossible, but we'd need Kyube to say for sure.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2011-02-03 at 17:38.
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Old 2011-02-03, 18:09   Link #46
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Nope. Because it leaves time for you to get attached to them and makes the impact of their death much stronger.
Ah yes, the Joss Whedon philosophy. That's been known to backfire sometimes, though.
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Old 2011-02-03, 18:15   Link #47
estdesoda
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What I heard from the conversation between Kyoko and Kyube:

「すべてきみの思い通りにいくと限らないよ。この町にはもうひとり、魔法少女がいるからね。」
「へえ。何者なの、そいつ?」
「僕にもよくわからない。」
「はぁ?どういうことさ?そいつだてあんたと契約して魔法少女になったんでしょう?」
「そうども言えるし、違うでも言える。あの子は極め付きのイレギュラーだ。」

What I think it means:

"Not everything is exactly as what you have expected, because this town has another MG."
"Oh? Who is that?" (or "what kind of person is that?")
"I don't really know, too."
"What? What do you mean? Didn't she also contracted with you to become a MG?"
"You can say it that way; but it's not that way, too. She is an extreme irregularity."

=

All I can really conclude was the Kyube is being pretty unclear about what Homura is,
or whether Homura contracted with Kyube...besides from the fact that Homura is irregular.
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Old 2011-02-03, 18:34   Link #48
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It's true, many of our predictions were wrong and/or altered to be right. I'm glad that the predictions aren't all true though, like previously said it would be boring if they were.
So am I. Though I enjoy spoilers, I don't really read all the theories and stuff (but sometimes, i can't help myself, i need to read those) and I'm glad I could enjoy this episode without any real predictions.
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Old 2011-02-03, 18:39   Link #49
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Okay, having watched the subs, gonna correct some of what I was thinking, to see if I can hit a point. And it'll teach me to take what other people have said for granted, instead of waiting for subs, heh.

Sayaka asks if Kyube can grant any wish, which he replies "Don't worry, your wish is fine." So he didn't really answer the question, but it does imply there are some wishes that aren't fine. We'll see if that's expanded upon later.

Homura says she doesn't like to lie. Not that she won't lie. Could be a translation thing, but we'll see. Also, the topic of directly wishing someone back to life wasn't really brought up, nor in reference to Mami. Homura just said, in reference to Sayaka becoming an MG, "At this point, it's a mistake I'll never be able to correct. It's a fruitless as trying to raise the dead."

If wishing someone back is impossible, then wishing someone else to no longer be an MG is equally impossible, because Homura is associating those two things. If one is possible (and some theories relied upon Homura wishing that Madoka was no longer an MG), then the other is possible. Personally, given that she wants to stop Madoka from being an MG, I'll take her words while noting her bias.

So, still lacking some wish rules, and Madoka still hasn't thought about whether she can even revive Mami. If it goes another ep or two without addressing this, then it might be a sign that Madoka's wish might be to bring Mami back. Or perhaps to choose between that, and another wish to somehow deal with the witch issue.

On another note, it's interesting that Sayaka reflects the more standard Magical Girl ideal, of fighting for justice and protecting people (stuff that Madoka paid some lip service to earlier). She's scared, but she won't regret the path she's taken. Acting despite fear, is also called courage. She's not concerned about grief seeds, but simply protecting people. I'm liking, and impressed by, her character more and more, and really hoping they don't screw with her, heh. And apparently the powers of an MG derive from the type of wish. Sayaka having superhuman regeneration because she wished to heal another.

I'm actually thinking about challenging the notion that Kamijou is her boyfriend. She might like him, or he could just be a good friend or childhood friend. I don't believe it's stated anywhere. Heh, having watched Nanoha, I'm kinda soured on the whole subtext thing, since it ultimately could mean nothing. In that light, all we know is that she healed a friend, and Kamijou seems really happy.

I wonder then, if the possibility is that Kyoko might go after Kamijou. She clearly saw them on the roof, so she kinda knows what Sayaka's wish was. Would killing Kamijou affect Sayaka's powers at all? Or would Kyoko do it just to be cruel, another way of striking at Sayaka now that it seems like Homura might actually defend Sayaka?

One last note: Apparently Homura didn't want Sayaka to be an MG, either, and if she's being honest, she felt sorry for not paying more attention to Sayaka. Still, her emphasis did seem to be stronger on Madoka, but it at least makes me question her motives once more: does she want to stop new MG's totally? Or just Madoka? Or was she regretting not stopping Sayaka because of Madoka?

Anyway, more questions than anything else, heh. Interested to see where this goes, provided things are addressed.
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:14   Link #50
scr
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So basically... Archer versus Lancer.
Spoiler for eps5:
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:15   Link #51
Mentar
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Sayaka asks if Kyube can grant any wish, which he replies "Don't worry, your wish is fine." So he didn't really answer the question, but it does imply there are some wishes that aren't fine. We'll see if that's expanded upon later.
Yup, I picked up on that, too. It does seem to indicate that there ARE limitations on wishes.

Quote:
If wishing someone back is impossible, then wishing someone else to no longer be an MG is equally impossible, because Homura is associating those two things. If one is possible (and some theories relied upon Homura wishing that Madoka was no longer an MG), then the other is possible. Personally, given that she wants to stop Madoka from being an MG, I'll take her words while noting her bias.
I maintain the theory for now. Homura is a MG with a committed wish, so obviously _she_ can't use a miracle to "save" Sayaka as contract-payment anymore. I see no reason why this would preclude the "wish Madoka out" theory, because back then, she had NOT yet committed her miracle.

What's her reason to keep Madoka from becoming a MG? Why does she go to these lengths? Why does Homura have the knowledge from the past? Why does she bother to comfort her? Why did she react so strongly when Madoka claimed she'd never forget Homura?

So far I haven't been unable to come up with a better explanation than "they knew each other in the past", which consequently poses the question "why did Madoka forget?" - plausible theories welcome. Until then I'll stick with my old "she wished her out" one, because it would explain all questions from the former paragraph very logically.

Quote:
On another note, it's interesting that Sayaka reflects the more standard Magical Girl ideal, of fighting for justice and protecting people (stuff that Madoka paid some lip service to earlier).
Which leads to one of the most important aspects of this ep: Very obviously this "ideal" is the opposite of how MGs are in this anime. Homura even went so far to say that they are "fatal flaws" in MGs and essentially says that these traits will kill Sayaka, just like they killed Mami.

Quote:
She's scared, but she won't regret the path she's taken. Acting despite fear, is also called courage. She's not concerned about grief seeds, but simply protecting people. I'm liking, and impressed by, her character more and more, and really hoping they don't screw with her, heh. And apparently the powers of an MG derive from the type of wish. Sayaka having superhuman regeneration because she wished to heal another.
So what's going to happen to her, in your reading? Do you think that your "standard MG ideal" going to prevail? Or that Homura's much more gloomy outlook is going to prove correct?

Quote:
I'm actually thinking about challenging the notion that Kamijou is her boyfriend. She might like him, or he could just be a good friend or childhood friend. I don't believe it's stated anywhere.
I think it's clear that he is NOT her boyfriend. Rather, Sayaka WANTS him to become her boyfriend (see ep4, beginning).

Quote:
Heh, having watched Nanoha, I'm kinda soured on the whole subtext thing, since it ultimately could mean nothing. In that light, all we know is that she healed a friend, and Kamijou seems really happy.
Unlike ep4, where he snapped at Sayaka in a fairly mean way, he has been pretty nice this time, and even apologized for his trait to be mean to her. I wonder if this indicates that Sayaka will have her "unspoken" wish granted after all - or if this is just a red herring to make the fall even deeper.

Quote:
One last note: Apparently Homura didn't want Sayaka to be an MG, either, and if she's being honest, she felt sorry for not paying more attention to Sayaka. Still, her emphasis did seem to be stronger on Madoka, but it at least makes me question her motives once more: does she want to stop new MG's totally? Or just Madoka? Or was she regretting not stopping Sayaka because of Madoka?
I think it's both. She realized that Madoka cared alot for Sayaka (she rechecked in this ep), and so having Sayaka turn MG would pull Madoka back in. But in one earlier scene, Homura also berated Mami for dragging two unrelated girls into this mess. So, I'd say she tries to save ANY girl from becoming a MG. But she has a particularly strong interest in protecting Madoka.
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:25   Link #52
estdesoda
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Okay, having watched the subs, gonna correct some of what I was thinking, to see if I can hit a point. And it'll teach me to take what other people have said for granted, instead of waiting for subs, heh.

Sayaka asks if Kyube can grant any wish, which he replies "Don't worry, your wish is fine." So he didn't really answer the question, but it does imply there are some wishes that aren't fine. We'll see if that's expanded upon later.

Homura says she doesn't like to lie. Not that she won't lie. Could be a translation thing, but we'll see. Also, the topic of directly wishing someone back to life wasn't really brought up, nor in reference to Mami. Homura just said, in reference to Sayaka becoming an MG, "At this point, it's a mistake I'll never be able to correct. It's a fruitless as trying to raise the dead."
Here is what I heard:

「だからほむらちゃんにお願いしたにの。さやかちゃんと仲良くしてあげて、マミさんの時みたいに喧嘩しない で、魔女をやっつけるの時も、みんなで協力戦いはずっと安全のはずだよね?」
「私はうそをつきたくないし、出来もしない約束もしたくない。だから、みきさやかのことは諦め て。」
「どうしてなの?」
「あの子は契約すべきじゃなかった。確かに私のミスよ。あなただけでなく、彼女もきちんと関心しておくべき だったら。」
「なら…!」
「でも、責任にを認めて言わせてもらうわ。今と何でも、どうやっても償い切れないミスなの。死んでしまった 人がかえて来ないと同じこと。一度魔法少女になってしまったら、もうの救われる望みなんでない。あの契約は 、ただひとつの希望と引き換えに、すべてを諦めるでことだから。」
「だから、ほむらちゃんも諦めちゃでるの?自分のことも、他の子のことも、全部?」
「ええ。罪滅なんて言い訳はしないわ。私はどんな罪を背負いと、私の戦いをつつくなれならない 。」

I think Homura said "I don't want to lie" vs. "I don't like to" or "I won't"; but oh well..that's just how I think. and I wonder if they actually make the differences.

and yeah, it seems like Homura just said that Sayaka becoming MG is as bad and as uncorrectable as having someone dead, not directly stating whether or not you can wish Mami to be revived..
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:36   Link #53
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Well Kyosuke was nice to Sayaka and even apologized for yelling at her last time, so he's not that bad anymore.

So Kyube called Homura an irregular. So i take it that Kyoko implied that all MS are contracted with Kyube. How can he not know if he has a contract with her? It's either a yes or no, but since no one else can make those contracts it has to e a yes. Maybe this is where Homura's wish comes into play.

I like how direct Homura was about refusing to be friends with Sayaka. Though she did say it was a mistake to not watch her. Also she made a reference to raising the dead which would be unlikely.

Kyoko was bad-ass, her fighting style was awesome. She said something about the food chain as in they eat witches and not fighting for justice. It looked like Kyube was a little upset and maybe Kyoko was going to state te truth behind everything. Kyube really doesn't let an opportunity go to make a contract with Madoka, but luckily Homura saved the day, well at leas for now.

So Sayaka has regenerative powers because she wished for someone to be healed. So does that mean all MS have powers related to their wishes?
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:43   Link #54
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To me, it seemed more like Kyube was offering the only solution he knew. Granted, it would result in her becoming an MG which he seems programmed to create; but he also told Madoka earlier that she should wait on that because Sayaka would strongly object to it.

It's more like, "Here's one option, the only thing I can think of. But it's up to you, and here are some reasons why you might not want to. Weigh everything carefully, before making such a life-altering decision."

It is interesting that he said he can't stop them. Even if he wanted to, he couldn't do anything about it. All he can do is create MG's; that's it. Given how Homura beat him up, he can't even really defend himself.

Still nothing said as to what forces an MG to keep fighting, either, even though Homura believed that's how it goes. The series keeps trying to tell us this, but not show why.
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:43   Link #55
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I agree that Kyoko was pretty badass, despite the fact that she's an epic bitch. I love how her staff is like a spear version of Soul Calibur Ivy's sword, though. Awesome!

Madoka really got on my nerves this episode, I don't know why. She just seems so insignificant, whiny, and useless right now. I understand that's probably on purpose, but for the time being, boy, is it irritating. I'm liking Sayaka's character more and more, and it's always nice to see more of Homura. <3 This episode left me begging for more. Can't wait for episode 6 (from the feel of the pacing, some big shit will probably drop in episode 7, but I could be wrong).
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:47   Link #56
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Originally Posted by ars89 View Post
So Sayaka has regenerative powers because she wished for someone to be healed. So does that mean all MS have powers related to their wishes?
It's interesting question, and it makes you wonder about Mami, since she wished to be healed herself. However, if the wish does influence how the MG turns out, then the thing that's particularly interesting is Homura's shield, since it seems very much in keeping with her desire to protect Madoka.
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:50   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Bafflement View Post
It's interesting question, and it makes you wonder about Mami, since she wished to be healed herself. However, if the wish does influence how the MG turns out, then the thing that's particularly interesting is Homura's shield, since it seems very much in keeping with her desire to protect Madoka.
In another light, she has some power of illusion (which then create bombs). Would wishing someone's memories gone be related to that, too?
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Old 2011-02-03, 19:59   Link #58
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I wonder if they're gonna cop out and say since Mami wished to live, she has the power to come back from the dead giving enough time....

Well, that's probably just me being hopeful
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:00   Link #59
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
To me, it seemed more like Kyube was offering the only solution he knew. Granted, it would result in her becoming an MG which he seems programmed to create; but he also told Madoka earlier that she should wait on that because Sayaka would strongly object to it.
QB knows that keeping Madoka close will give him lots of crisis moments for yet another contract pitch. And in saying so, he even gives Madoka a feeling of purpose. Ain't that convenient? I'm surprised how readily QB's statements are believed where he's been SHOWN to be a scheming bastard (by calling Kyouko over after Mami's death (ending ep4) and not warning Sayaka that Kyouko had told him that she intended to kill her).

Quote:
It is interesting that he said he can't stop them. Even if he wanted to, he couldn't do anything about it.
So he says. But a Magical Girl could. Hint hint. *winks*

Look, he ORCHESTRATED this showdown. Why would he suddenly want to PREVENT it? It's only one more push to contract Madoka.

Quote:
Still nothing said as to what forces an MG to keep fighting, either, even though Homura believed that's how it goes. The series keeps trying to tell us this, but not show why.
Mami hinted about this just aswell, she also threatened Homura to stay away ("last time we can settle this with mere words"). Kyouko openly talks about killing Sayaka, and QB doesn't even flinch. This obviously isn't merely Homura's belief, this looks very much like cold, hard truth to me. You are right though that we haven't been given a clear reason for that yet.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:11   Link #60
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Not sure if anyone else noticed, but it seems like there may be some credence to the whole time travel kind of thing, potentially. QB mentions that the type of wish affects the abilities of the mahou shoujo, at least indirectly, with how sayaka has high regeneration capabilities with the wish to heal another. It seems to me, at least the way that the scene was shot, that homura's ability isn't so much teleportation, as we thought, but could be more time manipulation, as in perhaps pausing time. In the scene as she shows up, we can see her moving along from the point of view of a still drop of water, which after she is done moving, the water begins moving again. Also, after, showing the shot of a water drop behind madoka, it suddenly bursts like something has hit it, all while time is paused. So it seems to me that her ability is pausing time or something to that effect, even if only for a short time. Also her item that is on her as she appears looks to be some sort of clock or cyclical kind of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of time manipulation happening there, and could provide a hint to what her wish was. Just some food for thought.
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