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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Rating
Perfect 10 40 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 40 33.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 28 23.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 6.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.83%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.83%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-03, 20:12   Link #61
fukarming
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Another great episode.

For Sayaka, I think her flags are everywhere. She will suffer either emotionally (Kamijo "dump" her, more on that later), or externally (got owned as a MG), and mostly likely both. Probably not next episode but I will be surprised if she remains happy as both a girl and a MG for the rest of the series.

About the relationship between Sayaka and Kamijo, they are definitely not BF/GF as it is never stated/ hinted in the series. Their relationship is more similar to the one between Saionji and Wakaba in Utena: Saionji is the mighty student council member and captain of the kendo team. Wakaba is a plain girl admired him but Saionji pays no attention to her. When Saionji "falls" (got expelled from the student council), Wakaba is the one who take him in and Saionji returns the affection in a way. But when Saionji got readmitted in the student council, Saionji becomes out of reach again.

I predict that Kamijo will become distance from Sayaka, even by no faults of his own. Like he is busy practicing violin or having interview or planning performance etc. Afterall, only a patient will be on a bed 24/7 and Sayaka can see him whenever she wants to only when he remains a patient.

About Kyubei, it is interesting to see how he can control the MG and what are the boundaries. I think Kyubei should have a trick up on his sleeve if a MG decided to grab the wish to forget the duty of a MG. However, he seems indifferent when Kyoko decide to attack Sayaka. It will be interesting to see if Kyubei is truly powerless to stop Kyoko, or he chooses not to stop Kyoko (to give more opportunity for Madoka to become MG). What if a MG decide to kill normal people for fun? Will/Can Kyubei stop her?

About Homura, she didn't want Sayaka to become MG is because Sayaka will lead Madoka become MG. Homura's main and only goal is to stop Madoka become MG. She only realizes after the fact that Sayaka will become a catalyst for Madoka to become a MG (like what happen at the end of the episode)
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:17   Link #62
deathcurse
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I actually wonder if the unexpected rogue element that Kyube was talking about referred to Madoka, rather than Homura. We’ve had hints before that Kyube views Madoka as somehow different/better than all the other girls, and he refers to how he doesn’t have a contract with the person he was speaking about, that comment definitely applies to Madoka, while we don’t know if it applies or not to Homura (nothing in the show so far definitively points one way or another).

One part that was awesome storyboarding was when Homura was talking about Mami’s fate, and right then she pulled the lid off her cup. I shuddered when she did that, and from the look on Madoka’s face, she also got the implication .

About the fight between Kyoko and Sayaka…I feel like this entire episode was manipulated by Kyube to persuade Madoka into forming a contract, just like how in previous episodes he kept emphasizing the “I can grant any wish even for someone else” to Sayaka. I’m really not liking that little ferret thing
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:20   Link #63
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
About Homura, she didn't want Sayaka to become MG is because Sayaka will lead Madoka become MG. Homura's main and only goal is to stop Madoka become MG. She only realizes after the fact that Sayaka will become a catalyst for Madoka to become a MG (like what happen at the end of the episode)
I thought of it as Homura thinking Madoka had a greater chance of becoming a MG, probably because of QB wanting her more because she has a lot of potential, or maybe if the time travel theory is right Sayaka didn't become a MG in Homura's timeline.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:38   Link #64
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As expected Sayaka is dragging Madoka into the rubbish life of a mahou shoujo. Here's hoping Sayaka crashes and burns before Madoka can even think about becoming one.

Homura is getting clear. She knows Madoka would turn into a mahou shojo to help her friends which is why she is keeping such a distance from her. She's also caught onto kyubei's plan to use Sayaka as the catalyst to make Madoka into a mahou shojo.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:38   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
QB knows that keeping Madoka close will give him lots of crisis moments for yet another contract pitch. And in saying so, he even gives Madoka a feeling of purpose. Ain't that convenient? I'm surprised how readily QB's statements are believed where he's been SHOWN to be a scheming bastard (by calling Kyouko over after Mami's death (ending ep4) and not warning Sayaka that Kyouko had told him that she intended to kill her).

So he says. But a Magical Girl could. Hint hint. *winks*

Look, he ORCHESTRATED this showdown. Why would he suddenly want to PREVENT it? It's only one more push to contract Madoka.
That's an interesting theory, but there's no proof yet. Everything that has happened has a perfectly normal explanation from the information we've been given. Kyube has been fairly forthright that his desire is to make MG's to fight witches. Does he have an interest? Sure. But he's never been dishonest about it and hasn't really pressured anyone. Just a bit of urgency when the girls were in trouble, but it was their choice to go in.

But of course, Kyube can't win no matter what he does.

Ranma: "Hey, Kuno!"
Kuno: "Your attempt to greet me is all an act to get inside my guard. I shall not fall for it!"
Ranma: "Seriously, Kuno, I'm just saying hello."
Kuno: "Don't mock me, Saotome! One day I shall expose thy vile sorcerous ways!"
Akane: "Come on, Ranma, ignore him. We're going to be late for class."

Quote:
Mami hinted about this just aswell, she also threatened Homura to stay away ("last time we can settle this with mere words").
To me, this was Mami reading Homura's intentions. Mami realized that, since Homura was very much against Madoka and Sayaka becoming MG's, she'd be riding Mami harder and would attack if she had to. Mami realized that further words would no longer work past that point, because Homura would attack next time.

But could go either way. Just how I saw it, which may or may not be correct.

Quote:
Kyouko openly talks about killing Sayaka, and QB doesn't even flinch
Kyube doesn't flinch at all. I don't think he has any ability to flinch, heh. He does warn Kyoko that it may not go as she wants, though. And since he wants MG's to fight witches, MG's fighting each other is counter-productive. But as he says, he can't do anything about it. And Kyoko isn't the type to be convinced via words, anyway.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:42   Link #66
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Time travel/alternate universe sure got a boost with Kyuube unsure if he contracted Homura. The insinuation being he contracts all magical girls, but can't remember ever contracting her. Yet. ;p We know Homura can hear him though, from the episode where Mami was killed. So it's almost certain he did contract her I think.

Kyuube is quite the master manipulator. Very clever attempt to get Madoka to contract. I'm amazed anyone can believe he's anything but evil.

Kyoko. I like her. She's a realist, like Homura in a way. She's just chosen a more...brazen approach to it all. She brought up an excellent point by the way. If you go around killing the familiars, there will be no witches. No witches, no grief seeds. We don't know what happens when a magical girl's soul gem goes out, but I suspect it isn't anything good.

Kyoko also appeared genuinely amused at the reason for Sayaka becoming a MG. Makes me curious how she became one herself. I mean we've seen Kyuube play on these two girls' fears/insecurities/sense of justice. Mami probably had no idea what she was getting into. How did Kyuube convince Kyoko to do so?

Anyways, Homura is getting real interesting now as the time travel/alternate universe theory gains steam. I have no idea what to expect in the next episode.

I suppose it's possible Homura ends up killing Kyoko (though I get the feeling she has no urge to kill any magical girls). Doing so might help to unglamorize the profession even further in Madoka's eyes though, which could be all the reason needed I suppose.

Btw, there were so many death flags for Sayako, that I almost thought she wasn't going to last a full episode as a magical girl.

Last edited by creb; 2011-02-03 at 20:59.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:55   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
Time travel/alternate universe sure got a boost with Kyuube unsure if he contracted Homura. The insinuation being he contracts all magical girls, but can't remember ever contracting her. Yet. ;p We know Homura can hear him though, from the episode where Mami was killed. So it's almost certain he did contract her I think.
Alternate, simpler explanation: Homura (or someone else) wished to erase Kyube's memories of Homura.

And telepathy is possible merely because Homura has magic and Kyube is nearby.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:00   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But he's never been dishonest about it and hasn't really pressured anyone.

He's not allowed to pressure anyone,and that's not speculation,he's said it himself.

So who knows,maybe if he could he would.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:02   Link #69
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That's an interesting theory, but there's no proof yet. Everything that has happened has a perfectly normal explanation from the information we've been given. Kyube has been fairly forthright that his desire is to make MG's to fight witches. Does he have an interest? Sure. But he's never been dishonest about it and hasn't really pressured anyone. Just a bit of urgency when the girls were in trouble, but it was their choice to go in.
"Just a bit of urgency" ...

I remember you said you liked facts. FACT is that he called over Kyoko in ep4. FACT is that he's been with her two times where she indicated that she intends to kill another MG without trying to dissuade her from doing so. FACT is that he didn't even bother to tell Sayaka that she's in danger.

Quote:
But of course, Kyube can't win no matter what he does.
Hey, he has been winning. He just contracted Sayaka, and if it hadn't been for Homura's invention, possibly Madoka aswell. Funny what a string of strange coincidences and "just a bit of urgency" can achieve.

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To me, this was Mami reading Homura's intentions. Mami realized that, since Homura was very much against Madoka and Sayaka becoming MG's, she'd be riding Mami harder and would attack if she had to. Mami realized that further words would no longer work past that point, because Homura would attack next time.
Homura has never lifted as much of a finger or her voice against a human or MG. It was Mami who threatened Homura in ep1, it was Mami who threatened Homura after she declined the Grief seed (ep2), it was Mami who threatened Homura in the night talk (ep3) and it was Mami who attacked and bound Homura on the way to the witch (ep3). By now, Homura has saved Madoka once, Sayaka twice, along with giving alot of fairly reasonable advice. Facts, not conjecture. What a villain.

Quote:
Kyube doesn't flinch at all. I don't think he has any ability to flinch, heh. He does warn Kyoko that it may not go as she wants, though. And since he wants MG's to fight witches, MG's fighting each other is counter-productive. But as he says, he can't do anything about it. And Kyoko isn't the type to be convinced via words, anyway.
Of course he could have done something about it. He could have at least warned Sayaka that another MG was intending to kill her. He could have dissuaded Kyoko from doing it in the first place. I find it hard to understand how you can systematically try to see anything Homura does in the most suspicious and negative light, and yet ignore QB's obvious schemings.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:04   Link #70
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Some people just want to champion the contrarian view on the off chance it proves to be right Mentar.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:14   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
FACT is that he called over Kyoko in ep4.

Sure about that?
He did say "I didn't expect you to show up" , maybe he just sent a general message like "to all MGs Mami is dead,her territory is up for grabs" and Kyoko's the first one who showed up (despite apparently having been far away previously)


Quote:
He could have at least warned Sayaka that another MG was intending to kill her. He could have dissuaded Kyoko from doing it in the first place.
Isn't it more of a sign of him being neutral rather than evil though?

edit:scratch that,if he were neutral he'd inform both girls that's there's another girl in town,he told Kyoko about Sayaka,but never told Sayaka Kyoko was in town
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:17   Link #72
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
He's not allowed to pressure anyone,and that's not speculation,he's said it himself.

So who knows,maybe if he could he would.
And maybe if he could force everyone to be MG's, he would. There are a lot of things he might do if he could, but we don't know.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"Just a bit of urgency" ...

I remember you said you liked facts. FACT is that he called over Kyoko in ep4. FACT is that he's been with her two times where she indicated that she intends to kill another MG without trying to dissuade her from doing so. FACT is that he didn't even bother to tell Sayaka that she's in danger.
No, there is no evidence he called over Kyoko. Another possible explanation: He put out an ad saying, "Hey, this area is open now and needs an MG." Kyoko answered it before he could cancel the ad with "Sorry, taken now, just made a contract!"

But hey, if I wanted to be like you... FACT: he hasn't stopped Kyoko because he's using her to make Sayaka stronger!

Sorry, stuff like that ain't facts; they're assumptions. Opinions. Guesses. But you're convinced you're right, and there couldn't possibly any other explanation, right?

Quote:
Hey, he has been winning. He just contracted Sayaka, and if it hadn't been for Homura's invention, possibly Madoka aswell. Funny what a string of strange coincidences and "just a bit of urgency" can achieve.
You misread what I meant to say. Kyube can't win with you, because no matter what he does, he's evil. Just like no matter what Obama does, he can't win with Glenn Beck. Obama could create world peace, solve world hunger, and give everyone a home and a hot meal every night, and he'd still be evil.

Damn that evil Kyube, creating Magical Girls to fight witches in order to save people! DAMN HIM TO HELL! He should know what's good for him and go away and stop making magical girls so that witches can have free run on humans!

Listen, dude, having an opinion is fine. But part of having an open mind is acknowledging that you could be wrong, and that maybe, just possibly you should withhold some judgment until he actually does something evil. The term is a loaded one, and I prefer to save it for those that are truly bad. But if you toss it around willy-nilly, then it loses its importance.

Quote:
Homura has never lifted as much of a finger or her voice against a human or MG. It was Mami who threatened Homura in ep1, it was Mami who threatened Homura after she declined the Grief seed (ep2), it was Mami who threatened Homura in the night talk (ep3) and it was Mami who attacked and bound Homura on the way to the witch (ep3). By now, Homura has saved Madoka once, Sayaka twice, along with giving alot of fairly reasonable advice. Facts, not conjecture. What a villain.
It was Homura who beat the crap out of Kyube (but hey, he's evil, and beating the crap out of people you don't like is a-okay!), it was Mami who gave the seed to Homura, and tried to make peace several times, it was Homura who rejected that every single time.

Yeah, some of what you have there is facts, but it's also called "cherry picking intelligence to suit your cause." Last I checked, people frowned on that.

Quote:
I find it hard to understand how you can systematically try to see anything Homura does in the most suspicious and negative light, and yet ignore QB's obvious schemings.
Actually, I don't find Homura too suspicious. I find her interesting. But you've made up your mind to think I do, so I nothing I say about it matters, eh? You see, what I do, is merely consider the possibilities for all angles. I am capable of saying to myself, "Hmm, Homura could be evil, or there could be something else, or she could be just a normal character; I don't know which, so I won't form any preconceived biases." Or "Hmm, could Kyube could be evil, or good, or neutral, but I don't have any real evidence at the moment, so I'll keep my mind open."

You, however, have decided that Kyube is evil and Homura is good, and nothing will dissuade you from that. Kuno is convinced Ranma is evil and has used dark magics to enchant Akane Tendo and the pig-tailed girl, and no matter what action Ranma takes, Kuno won't believe otherwise. That's not a good stance to take, dude. Other people tend to just shake their heads and sigh.

I'll make this prediction: no matter what happens in this series, you'll forever think of Kyube as evil. I won't try to change your mind, and you're entitled to your own opinion; you're just not entitled to your own facts.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:23   Link #73
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Originally Posted by JDGBOLT View Post
Not sure if anyone else noticed, but it seems like there may be some credence to the whole time travel kind of thing, potentially. QB mentions that the type of wish affects the abilities of the mahou shoujo, at least indirectly, with how sayaka has high regeneration capabilities with the wish to heal another. It seems to me, at least the way that the scene was shot, that homura's ability isn't so much teleportation, as we thought, but could be more time manipulation, as in perhaps pausing time. In the scene as she shows up, we can see her moving along from the point of view of a still drop of water, which after she is done moving, the water begins moving again. Also, after, showing the shot of a water drop behind madoka, it suddenly bursts like something has hit it, all while time is paused. So it seems to me that her ability is pausing time or something to that effect, even if only for a short time. Also her item that is on her as she appears looks to be some sort of clock or cyclical kind of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of time manipulation happening there, and could provide a hint to what her wish was. Just some food for thought.
This is probably the most interesting theory I've read all day, personally.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:38   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
No, there is no evidence he called over Kyoko. Another possible explanation: He put out an ad saying, "Hey, this area is open now and needs an MG." Kyoko answered it before he could cancel the ad with "Sorry, taken now, just made a contract!"

But hey, if I wanted to be like you... FACT: he hasn't stopped Kyoko because he's using her to make Sayaka stronger!

Sorry, stuff like that ain't facts; they're assumptions. Opinions. Guesses. But you're convinced you're right, and there couldn't possibly any other explanation, right?
You killed one "fact", regarding to whether or not Kyube specifically called for Kyoko. However, the "Kyube did not tell Sayaka about Kyoko" still holds true. That's no assumption, opinion, or guess, but truth. Do you really want to explain that as Kyube wanting to use Kyoko to make Sayaka stronger?

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:44   Link #75
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You killed one "fact", regarding to whether or not Kyube specifically called for Kyoko. However, the "Kyube did not tell Sayaka about Kyoko" still holds true. That's no assumption, opinion, or guess, but truth. Do you really want to explain that as Kyube wanting to use Kyoko to make Sayaka stronger?

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
Exactly: Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe there is another angle here that we aren't seeing. Perhaps there is some other rules that Kyube is bound by, and he's not allowed to tell one MG that another is moving in on her turf. A lot of people seem to have confidence that the wish system has rules... why not the wishgiver, too?
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:45   Link #76
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No, there is no evidence he called over Kyoko. Another possible explanation: He put out an ad saying, "Hey, this area is open now and needs an MG." Kyoko answered it before he could cancel the ad with "Sorry, taken now, just made a contract!"
Yea. Still the same: He calls everyone over, he called Kyoko over too. Nutbladder 22:01 "But then I come all the way out here and you've got a completely different story?" - glad we're agreed.

Quote:
But hey, if I wanted to be like you... FACT: he hasn't stopped Kyoko because he's using her to make Sayaka stronger!

Sorry, stuff like that ain't facts; they're assumptions. Opinions. Guesses. But you're convinced you're right, and there couldn't possibly any other explanation, right?
This is why discussing with you gets so tiresome fast: When you get cornered, you're quick to misrepresent the other's positions and start fighting straw mans you invented inside your head. What else did I write?

Quote:
FACT is that he's been with her two times where she indicated that she intends to kill another MG without trying to dissuade her from doing so. FACT is that he didn't even bother to tell Sayaka that she's in danger.
I hope that even you won't deny that these are facts. So what was your silly tirade for?

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You misread what I meant to say. Kyube can't win with you, because no matter what he does, he's evil. Just like no matter what Obama does, he can't win with Glenn Beck. Obama could create world peace, solve world hunger, and give everyone a home and a hot meal every night, and he'd still be evil.
The next straw man. I list the many suspicious things about QB, yet instead of dealing with it, you turn ad hominem. Sad.

If you have a credible explanation for all them, I'm interested in that. If not, believe in your furry bundle of good by all means. In the meantime, leave me to my delusion that this furry piece of (censored) does not have Madoka/Sayaka's best interest in his mind.

Quote:
It was Homura who beat the crap out of Kyube (but hey, he's evil, and beating the crap out of people you don't like is a-okay!)
...which is why I said "to humans and MGs". I'm not debating that she tried to kill QB - she even admitted as much - but from her point of view, she has good reasons for it.

Quote:
it was Mami who gave the seed to Homura, and tried to make peace several times, it was Homura who rejected that every single time.
Imagine that, she REJECTED it. So you admit that what I wrote was right? That there is no shred of evidence of Homura harming or threatening humans and MGs?

[Rest of chatter about me deleted]

Look. This is not about me. Let's discuss the anime instead, okay? I bet the rest of the board is even less interested in you psychoanalyzing me than me.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:46   Link #77
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I wasn't the only one who noticed the time discrepancies, there was a mention of it on the puella-magi wiki to that effect. Another thing I noticed just from viewing, is that the symbols that are on her shield, I guess it is, is very similar to the magic circle or whatever that was around the enemy that homura was fighting in the dream sequence of the first episode, no idea what significance that holds, but just something I noticed. Either way, there are little hints being dropped here and there, and I am sure that rewatching this series once it is all done and over with will be fun, picking out all the bits of foreshadowing.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:57   Link #78
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I don't understand why Mentar and Kaijo arguing about something that cannot be argued

As of ep 5, Kyubei looks more suspicious than Homura. However, the anime hasn't past the point of no return where it is impossible to change that. The writer/ director of the show can easily use the rest of the episodes to make Kyubei good if he chooses to be. Afterall, so far Kyubei has not committed a single "evil" act. (indifferent maybe, but so far Kyubei did not do anything bad)
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Old 2011-02-03, 22:00   Link #79
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Yea. Still the same: He calls everyone over, he called Kyoko over too. Nutbladder 22:01 "But then I come all the way out here and you've got a completely different story?" - glad we're agreed.
You're trying to make it sound evil, though. The alternate explanation is: there was an area without an MG that needed an MG to protect the humans from witches. So he broadcast seeking one. He even told Madoka and Sayaka that he needed to find another one before he went away. But there is no evidence to suggest he called Kyoko specifically; it's just that she showed up.

Quote:
This is why discussing with you gets so tiresome fast: When you get cornered, you're quick to misrepresent the other's positions and start fighting straw mans you invented inside your head. What else did I write?
You wrote that Kyube called over Kyoko specifically. That's an assumption, given that we don't know what Kyube did to broadcast that the city needed an MG. Maybe he did specifically call her, but we don't know that.

See, that's the problem here. You take your assumptions as facts, and then are flabbergasted when people don't take them as fact. Recognize that they are just your opinion, and we won't have an issue.

Quote:
I hope that even you won't deny that these are facts. So what was your silly tirade for?
I'll grant that he has been with her two times without seeming to disuage her (although he did mention another MG and suggest it might not go as she wanted), but seriously, look at Kyoko. Do you really think words will stop her? Kyube admitted as much in this episode, that he can't stop her. With some people, words are pointless; wouldn't you agree? =)

Quote:
The next straw man. I list the many suspicious things about QB, yet instead of dealing with it, you turn ad hominem. Sad.

If you have a credible explanation for all them, I'm interested in that. If not, believe in your furry bundle of good by all means. In the meantime, leave me to my delusion that this furry piece of (censored) does not have Madoka/Sayaka's best interest in his mind.
I, and many others, have presented credible explanations several times. You keep coming back with, "B-b-but he's evil!"

But I'll state this one more time: "I don't know that Kyube is evil or good, only that his actions thus far can't conclusively be proven to be evil." I predict I'll have to say this again, though.

Quote:
...which is why I said "to humans and MGs". I'm not debating that she tried to kill QB - she even admitted as much - but from her point of view, she has good reasons for it.
Oh, that makes it all better. I have good reasons for killing someone, because they might offer someone else a contract that the other person is free to accept or reject. I know, I know, you'll come back with "but Kyube is evil!"

Quote:
Imagine that, she REJECTED it. So you admit that what I wrote was right? That there is no shred of evidence of Homura harming or threatening humans and MGs?
Heh, this is funny, because I used this same line of reasoning on you several times, and each time you refused to deal with it. So, let's say my answer to your question, will be the same as your answer to this question: "So you agree there is no shred of evidence that Kyube is evil?"
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Old 2011-02-03, 22:03   Link #80
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Under the assumption that luring girls into becoming MGs is a good thing, then no, he hasn't done any active evil. Agreed. I'd have guessed though that remaining passive on the knowledge that someone intends to kill the MG you're currently living with might warrant a tad of concern though.
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