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Old 2011-02-03, 20:18   Link #281
deathcurse
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Spoiler for Speculation from other thread:


Another thought: Does the wish come undone when the magical girl dies? It’s not clear with Mami, since her wish was for herself to live and so that kind of became negated anyways when she was killed. But if the wishes become undone, then Sayaka would definitely have a really strong reason to keep fighting—it’s similar to the Mai HiME concept of protecting the life of someone else instead of your own.

So I wonder, would making a wish for yourself be more encouraging, or less so?
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:24   Link #282
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Since it's going into speculation territory, moving it here.
Good idea.

Quote:
She might not be able to, but it just means if you're correct, then wishing someone back from the dead is possible.
We can't really gauge anything here. Just pointing out that about the "saving MGs" issue she says that SHE can't do anything, while concerning resurrecting people she's rather going for a "general" form. In the Nutbladder sub (my lousy JP skills can't comment on that)

Quote:
Still waiting for Madoka to think about this. At the least, unless Homura tells her outright (and here she just seemed to nudge or misdirect Madoka in that direction), then Homura knows that Madoka should eventually think that she could revive Mami.
s/should/could. So this can be either a "Madoka director wants to drop this piece of info for the fans" meta-information, or it can be an explicit hint (if true) or misdirection (if untrue) for Madoka.

Quote:
Your last question requires a bit of an assumption. But I could postulate that Homura is a broken and traumatized individual that doesn't want anyone to become MG's.
One man's traumatized/broken individual is another man's sober/rational grown-up in a pile of fools. I share Homura's pessimistic view on what becoming a MG means, and I strongly respect her for refusing to feed Madoka soothing and comforting lies. Still - I think we're agreed that Homura is particular about Madoka. Why? Seriously, credible explanations welcome.

Quote:
Or perhaps Madoka becoming an MG was bad for a different reason, say, Homura was led to believe that Madoka becoming an MG would lead to bad things happening in the world.
That is definitely a possible explanation for several things. But if so, why did Homura react so strongly to personal statements from Madoka (ep1, ep4)? Why would she care about that if it's just about avoiding a disaster? Why would she try to comfort her?

Quote:
Or ending the system, and Homura is so invested in it, she doesn't want it ended.
You seriously get the feeling that Homura is trying to PROTECT the system? I'd have thought that stopping new MGs from spawning rather symbolizes sabotaging it.

No, if anything, I'd say that Homura is jaded about the system, and hates it to her core.

Quote:
Not sure, it all depends on whether this is an idealistic universe or a cynical one. Even in an idealistic universe, there can be death and some struggle before the ideal wins. Since Sayaka isn't the main character, she's not as plot-protected, but it would be quite the scam if Madoka saved the day by being idealistic, and yet they killed Sayaka for being idealistic earlier. So if it's cynical, then Sayaka would die. If it's idealistic, Sayaka may be hurt, but she'll eventually do the sidekick thing and buy time for Madoka to do her thing.
I'd say that the current MG universe is 100% cynical. The idealists are getting KILLED. And if my long-range prediction is right, it's going to fall to Madoka to change that.

Quote:
I don't see a fall yet, and I don't see her wanting a boyfriend yet. All we've got is possibly some blushes.
Eh? Rewatch ep4. Nutbladder 1:30: "(wishing for his health) - Would he just thank me? Or... something more? I'm horrible."

That isn't sufficient for you? I'd say it's pretty obvious what "something more" would be.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:49   Link #283
FlavorOfLife
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Long range guess on what will happen: Sayaka will not be the one who Madoka becomes a mahou shojo for. Homura will be the one she sacrifices for instead.

Madoka is the super witch in the first episode dream sequence with her costume colors surrounding her. Homura's wish is somehow broken possibly from kyubei's machinations/death and Madoka and Homura are drawn into the world of episode 1. The finale has Madoka and Homura fighting witch Madoka and succeeding. As Madoka would then be a mahou shoujo, she kills herself to prevent witch Madoka from ever happening.

Short term guess: Kamijo dies and Sayaka gives up

Story structure guess: Old Madoka (the long haired Madoka) adopted a cat or captured a cat familiar or witch (sayaka or Mami for lolz) and called it Homura as her life was as lonely as the other MS. Somehow Homura became human if a cat (a piece of Madoka?) or recovered her humanity with Madoka. After Madoka becamea witch, Homura completes the pact (first time or again), becoming a MS. This time her wish is to be able to save Madoka. The wish is granted literally and she is "able" but not guranteed to save Madoka by having her kicked back into time before she Madoka becomes a MS. As she knows part of Madoka's life and her personality well, she opts to drive her away from the MS path by fear after attempting to kill kyubei failed. As kyubei is now aware of her, the element of surprise is gone and attempting to kill him now would be difficult or would result in her losing. Since her death would kill any chance of stopping Madoa, she opts to play it as safe as possible. Unfortunately she did not know about Sayaka who was dead before that and after Sayaka's transformation, Homura realises too late that Sayaka would be used to coerce Madoka.

Further guessing
In episode 6, Kamijo dies.
In episode 7, Sayaka becomes a witch or is destroyed
In episode 8, Kyoko dies
In episode 9, Kyubei's final gambit starts
In episode 10, Homura's wish unravels. All is returned to episode 1's dream. Homura dies.
In episode 11, Madoka becomes a MS and fights her older witch self. She wins and finally Madoka kills herself to prevent herself from becoming a witch once more

Last edited by FlavorOfLife; 2011-02-05 at 10:00.
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Old 2011-02-03, 20:52   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
We can't really gauge anything here. Just pointing out that about the "saving MGs" issue she says that SHE can't do anything, while concerning resurrecting people she's rather going for a "general" form. In the Nutbladder sub (my lousy JP skills can't comment on that)
Gonna call personal assumption on that. Perhaps she meant she personally couldn't, or perhaps she meant that it wasn't possible at all, or perhaps she was lying or fudging the truth. Hell, if it meant it was possible to wish an MG back to normal as per your theory, that would mean that Madoka could wish Sayaka out of it. Homura wouldn't want that, so would obviously be personally biased to make sure Madoka didn't think it was possible.

Quote:
s/should/could. So this can be either a "Madoka director wants to drop this piece of info for the fans" meta-information, or it can be an explicit hint (if true) or misdirection (if untrue) for Madoka.
Possibly, but getting this far into it is seeing ghosts around every corner. Fans will always read more into a work than a writer intended to show. Sometimes a cake is just a cake.

Quote:
One man's traumatized/broken individual is another man's sober/rational grown-up in a pile of fools. I share Homura's pessimistic view on what becoming a MG means, and I strongly respect her for refusing to feed Madoka soothing and comforting lies. Still - I think we're agreed that Homura is particular about Madoka. Why? Seriously, credible explanations welcome.
As I have said before, it all depends on if this is an idealistic universe, or a cynical one. I trust I don't have to link to the trope. If it's cynical, than Homura is sober/rational. If it's idealistic, then Homura is broken. If the series is cynical, then it only ends when Madoka chooses to be cynical herself. I honestly don't think that's the way it's gonna go.

Quote:
That is definitely a possible explanation for several things. But if so, why did Homura react so strongly to personal statements from Madoka (ep1, ep4)? Why would she care about that if it's just about avoiding a disaster? Why would she try to comfort her?
Homura said it herself; Madoka is too kind. Perhaps killing Madoka would solve it, but after watching her for awhile, Homura realized that killing Madoka would be like killing a kitten. So she's settled for Plan B: hope to teach Madoka how cynical the world is. Perhaps Madoka's words there reminds Homura of someone else, or Homura herself. Perhaps Homura was "too kind" and naive once and paid the price for it. And perhaps it's going to be Madoka who teaches her that being too kind doesn't have to mean being naive, and that it's okay to feel.

Lots of possible explanations.

Quote:
You seriously get the feeling that Homura is trying to PROTECT the system? I'd have thought that stopping new MGs from spawning rather symbolizes sabotaging it.

No, if anything, I'd say that Homura is jaded about the system, and hates it to her core.
Not too serious about it; just a thought. If Homura has a wish that she needs to keep fighting to protect (say, she wished someone important back to life herself), and she learned that Madoka becoming an MG would end the system and thus all wishes, well, it would provide some motive for wanting Madoka to stay out of it.

Quote:
I'd say that the current MG universe is 100% cynical. The idealists are getting KILLED. And if my long-range prediction is right, it's going to fall to Madoka to change that.
We've had one death so far. Mami wasn't so much idealistic, but she did turn hopeful. And having a death like Mami's is a great way to establish that no one is safe. I did the same thing myself in my Future Tense fic. You don't need to kill everyone; just one person that your fans will care about. Helps establish the mood. Now, if someone else dies, you might have a bit of a point, but only if the person was an idealist (ie, Sayaka).

Quote:
Eh? Rewatch ep4. Nutbladder 1:30: "(wishing for his health) - Would he just thank me? Or... something more? I'm horrible."

That isn't sufficient for you? I'd say it's pretty obvious what "something more" would be.
Nope. Vague statement is vague. You're reading into it what you want to, and I suppose I could give alternate explanations, but at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if I should bother. Watch Nanoha sometime. You'll learn that nuances are can ultimately be pointless. Nanoha and Fate, despite all the subtext, carefully worded statements, and actions... are only best friends.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:14   Link #285
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Nope. Vague statement is vague. You're reading into it what you want to, and I suppose I could give alternate explanations, but at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if I should bother. Watch Nanoha sometime. You'll learn that nuances are can ultimately be pointless. Nanoha and Fate, despite all the subtext, carefully worded statements, and actions... are only best friends.
Well, this is where things blew up, yet I hope I may reiterate the point without another explosion: Methinks that you are applying Nanoha (your "idealistic" world, as you put it) logic to a show which at the moment (in my most humble opinion) is very strongly tinged "cynical". Therefore, what you suggest (using wishes to battlerez fallen MG friends, cooperation between MGs, pooh-poohing the dangers to life and limb etc) may make sense to you, but they constitute hair-raising foolishness to me (the proponent of the "cynical" theory).

I do believe that at the very end, Madoka WILL become a MG of the idealistic kind. But before that, I foresee alot more nasty carnage. And unfair Homerun-chan persecution, you meanie. Alas.

We'll see. Ep6 will be slippery slope, and things will get BAD soon thereafter, I think.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:25   Link #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Well, this is where things blew up, yet I hope I may reiterate the point without another explosion: Methinks that you are applying Nanoha (your "idealistic" world, as you put it) logic to a show which at the moment (in my most humble opinion) is very strongly tinged "cynical". Therefore, what you suggest (using wishes to battlerez fallen MG friends, cooperation between MGs, pooh-poohing the dangers to life and limb etc) may make sense to you, but they constitute hair-raising foolishness to me (the proponent of the "cynical" theory).

I do believe that at the very end, Madoka WILL become a MG of the idealistic kind. But before that, I foresee alot more nasty carnage. And unfair Homerun-chan persecution, you meanie. Alas.

We'll see. Ep6 will be slippery slope, and things will get BAD soon thereafter, I think.
We'll see. If Madoka wins via idealism, then we're in an idealistic universe. Thus, the show isn't cynical; just tough. In other words, in order for you to be right, then Madoka has to turn cynical. The show could be leading up to that. I don't know. My mind isn't made up. I just have more fun considering "what ifs" based on what's already happened.

And the only way Nanoha affects me, is teaching me that sometimes subtext is just subtext, and it has no bearing on what is real. And things I've suggested are merely possibilities, and sometimes things I believe the show should address in some manner, otherwise we end up with characters carrying the idiot ball at best, and plot holes at worst.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:32   Link #287
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I am of the camp that Urobuchi is much more cryptic and thorough than that of Tsuzuki, so I would not take light of what Mentar has suggested. Given the heavy literary onslaught augmenting the themes of well intended disasters in the last several episodes (Goethe Faust, John Gabriel Borkman), I can only say that the playwright has left sufficient room to claim the death of yet another Greek hero.

I do not think however that Madoka is to be Urobuchi Gen's Candide. The girl realizes painfully that this is not the best of possible worlds. On that part at least, this is to be no cynical satire.

Speaking of the subject of Madoka, based on what has transpired within the course of the past two episodes, Madoka seems to be pushed on a direction where she will wish, metaphorically, for the weight of the world to fall upon
her shoulders. In episode 4, she has acted with blatant disregard for her safety and despite a complete dread over witches and being a magical girl, to preserve the life of others, and only to come within a hair's breath of consigning an agreement with Kyubey.

Kaijo's counterpoint rests on the assumptions that somehow Homura has some sense, if not knowledge of Madoka taking action against the established system and on that Homura would find sufficient merits with the establishment to support the continued existence of this arrangement. However, we know not if Homura deems the 'potential' efforts by Madoka to destroy this system as ultimately successful or not, nor do we even know of past exploits of Homura, so we cannot discount that Homura is acting out of having foresight of what will befall Madoka. Whatever the circumstances may have been or may be today, Madoka is incredibly significant to Homura.
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Old 2011-02-03, 21:39   Link #288
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
I am of the camp that Urobuchi is much more cryptic and thorough than that of Tsuzuki, so I would not take light of what Mentar has suggested. Given the heavy literary onslaught augmenting the themes of well intended disasters in the last several episodes (Goethe Faust, John Gabriel Borkman), I can only say that the playwright has left sufficient room to claim the death of yet another Greek hero.
Partially. It wouldn't be just Tsuzuki, though, but many, many other anime and manga that I have consumed, where I have learned that, sometimes a cake is just a cake. And even if Urobuchi is including cyptic elements... how do you know you're looking at the right cryptic elements? You see the spoon, but miss the fork.

Quote:
Kaijo's counterpoint rests on the assumptions that somehow Homura has some sense, if not knowledge of Madoka taking action against the established system and on that Homura would find sufficient merits with the establishment to support the continued existence of this arrangement. However, we know not if Homura deems the 'potential' efforts by Madoka to destroy this system as ultimately successful or not, nor do we even know of past exploits of Homura, so we cannot discount that Homura is acting out of having foresight of what will befall Madoka. Whatever the circumstances may have been or may be today, Madoka is incredibly significant to Homura.
As I had said, it was only one possible explanation. Truthfully, I don't know what is going on in Homura's mind. Her actions seem a bit contradictory at times, but then again, she could be conflicted herself.

My only point is: It's okay and fun to speculate, but let's not let a marriage to one idea, blind us to the possibility of others. And let's not berate others for thinking so. It could very well be that Homura was once a friend of Madoka's and wished her out of the MG life; just that there's no evidence to support it as of yet.
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Old 2011-02-03, 23:56   Link #289
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Time to persecute me some QB.

Starting with observations and opinions in parenthesis.
QB blinks.
QB tells Sayaka to accept her fate/destiny as her Soul Gem pops out.
QB didn't mention Homura to Kyoko until she confirmed she would go after Sayaka.
QB is lounging with mascot-like sfx playing as his appendages fidget (and as he wags his tail) while Sayaka psyches herself up for her MG duties.
QB moves from Sayaka's left shoulder to her right.
QB reassures Madoka about being able to help Sayaka at any time in a one-to-one telepathic conversation.
Closeup of QB's gaze during Kyoko's demeaning tirade.
QB states only a MG could stop the fight.

Some Homura observations:
Homura reiterates her vexed views of MGs.
Homura reacts when Madoka mentions her belief of it being safer when MGs fight together against witches.
Homura wants Madoka to give up on Sayaka.
Homura is still stuck on keeping Madoka from becoming a MG.


And this is why I think Kyubey is being less and less subtle about being a bad guy.

-As he has history with Kyoko, it seems odd that he would warn her about Homura in the begining, especially if he does not care about MGs who die but only cares about creating MGs.
-This warning comes in contrast to his silence about Kyoko's hostile intentions even as he lounges in Sayaka's room later the same day.
-Kyubey was able to find Kyoko in the last episode and in this one. We can derive that he has some measure of ability to find MGs, perhaps his contractees, from this.
-Kyubey did not warn Sayaka about Kyoko beforehand, and did not tell her a hostile MG unafraid to initiate hostilities with her was approaching when she was fighting the familiar.
-Kyubey did not voice any objections to Kyoko's intentions to let a familiar become a witch, a situation which you would think he wants to avoid if he's making MGs to fight witches.


Homura could have avoided a lot of trouble if she just killed Kyubey after he met Madoka & co., but after all this time (in reality, has it even been a week?) and after Mami's death, she didn't. Since she tried to kill him before he met Madoka, his mere making contact with Madoka had set something into stone that wouldn't be changed with his death, but could be avoided by Madoka not becoming a MG. Since Madoka can't theoretically become a MG without QB, there is some significance in why she is going about it in this roundabout way.

And come to think of it, isn't the wish in the contract what distinguishes this series from an "idealistic" MG story? Maybe giving in to the desire to have a wish granted is what marks them for despair and death.
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Old 2011-02-04, 02:16   Link #290
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Despite being the best I have heard yet, I am not sold in the whole time travel theory for a simple reason:

Wishes are granted instantly at the moment a girl gians her power. This implies that if Homura wished Madoka out, and the show handles the resulting alternate universe, Homura should not have been a magic girl at that point. Possible, but unlikely since she should have intricate knowledge about the inner workings of witches, magic girls/worlds, etc. as well as love Madoka to death, and be un-realistically altruistic while cunning and manipulative ... nah ... it seems to far fetched, because of the way she is behaving up until now.

As for Qべ being evil? If you want to bag and tag according to over-simplified Judeo-Christian morality ... yes. But, keep in mind that there is absolutely no motivation shown for his action, and to be fair and a bit more intelligent than your average cafeteria christian/jew/muslim, evil applies to intent and motivation, not action and consequence.

Homura being evil? You bet, under the same religious standards, she is honest, straight-forward, fair, determined, focused, etc. these are prime characteristics of antagonistic figures in the said religions.
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Old 2011-02-04, 04:03   Link #291
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One speculation I'm given a lot of thought to, but haven't really committed to yet, is that Homura is older, future Madoka. Here's some reasons why:

Spoiler for Spoilers to save space, and sense I talk a lot about the recent Episode 5:
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Old 2011-02-04, 04:24   Link #292
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Quote:
Spoiler for well:
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Spoiler for reaction:
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Old 2011-02-04, 04:49   Link #293
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Another thing to note is that in the Homura-Madoka chat, Homura quite clearly said 'Magical Girls sacrifice everything for but one hope', and Homura very obviously is obsessed by Madoka.

It would make sense that Homura's wish had to do with Madoka.
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Old 2011-02-04, 04:55   Link #294
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One speculation I'm given a lot of thought to, but haven't really committed to yet, is that Homura is older, future Madoka. Here's some reasons why:

Spoiler for Spoilers to save space, and sense I talk a lot about the recent Episode 5:
The issue that first pops up when I think of time traveling theories is that the act of traveling back and interacting (eg attacking Kyubey, warning Madoka) will make things different than how they originally were, opening the way for people to speculate on what kind of world Madoka first started on and what happened there. When you talk about multiple jumps, however, it feels like it is less of her wish but more of her magic. And even if she spent many years going back and becoming more hardened, she already spent more of those years going forward, unless it takes longer to charge for a jump than the time you can travel back. If she still had this power, why wouldn't she just find some place to recharge then go further back again after failing to kill QB in episode one?
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Old 2011-02-04, 05:03   Link #295
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Spoiler for reaction:
Spoiler for Further speculation, and reply:
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Old 2011-02-04, 05:05   Link #296
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Quote:
The issue that first pops up when I think of time traveling theories is that the act of traveling back and interacting (eg attacking Kyubey, warning Madoka) will make things different than how they originally were, opening the way for people to speculate on what kind of world Madoka first started on and what happened there. When you talk about multiple jumps, however, it feels like it is less of her wish but more of her magic. And even if she spent many years going back and becoming more hardened, she already spent more of those years going forward, unless it takes longer to charge for a jump than the time you can travel back. If she still had this power, why wouldn't she just find some place to recharge then go further back again after failing to kill QB in episode one?
Spoiler for You may be right but..:
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Old 2011-02-04, 05:13   Link #297
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I'm putting my reply to Decagon in Spoiler Space to save space, and since it may be a bit spoilerrific

Spoiler for Back to Madoka Magica Discussion! ;):
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Old 2011-02-04, 06:37   Link #298
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interesting bit i saw:

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Old 2011-02-04, 06:51   Link #299
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Thx for pointing that out Arkeus...

Oh darn ... I just used the water gushing out as a reference but, unless that is background art error or something... Homura did something more than teleportation there... some sort of reality warping >< .

I think that reset theory is starting to look good...
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Old 2011-02-04, 06:55   Link #300
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Thx for pointing that out Arkeus...

Oh darn ... I just used the water gushing out as a reference but, unless that is background art error or something... Homura did something more than teleportation there... some sort of reality warping >< .

I think that reset theory is starting to look good...
Well, if she has reality-warping or reconstruction power, it is interesting to note she didn't change people, and we can speculate about the type of wish she did.
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