AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-02-04, 19:46   Link #41
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Sure, let's compare selling TV and forcing girls to fight a war for the rest of their lives with nor respite no retirement.

The fact is, Kyuubey make sure to tempt the girls again and again, and follow them to check if they weaken. He *also* set things up where they'd be weak.

For example, Kyubey can find MG and potential MG, so he knew where kyoko was. He knew what was coming. That is was 'inevitable' is bulshit, preparing sayaka for it would mean she wouldn't have freaked out about it, and might have dealt with it in a less frantic manner.

Also, madoka wouldn't have been there to make a wish.
Why wouldn't have Madoka have been there? You heard it yourself; Madoka wanted to come because she was worried about Sayaka. And Sayaka wanted Madoka to come because having her there would have given her reassurance.

And no analogy is perfect, but it was meant to illustrate that there was no manipulation was going on. If you want to believe he's evil, sure, fine, go for it. But there has been no evidence of it thus far. As I said, the worst you can say is that he takes advantage of situations to offer once again to Madoka a contract of being a magical girl.

And as Fukarming and I mentioned, if you find Kyube evil, then you have to find Luna, Yuuno, Keroberos, Mepple/Mipple, and many other magical animals evil as well. In fact, Kyube is less evil then them, because they practically forced their girls into doing it. Madoka is the first one to just be given the freedom to choose, and to sometimes be told to stay out of it.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 21:31   Link #42
Ricky Controversy
Frandle & Nightbag
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
I think of Kyuube's alignment as "Neutral Creepy", regardless of the nature of any superior force he serves. Frankly, if Kyuube were some evil manipulator, I feel like it would take the emotional punch out of the conflict, which at present is caused entirely by the magical girls themselves, with their conflicting motivations and ideologies. He offers the girls power and a wish, but he's perfectly clear with them about what they're getting into and what responsibilities are still entirely on their shoulders.
__________________
Ricky Controversy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 21:53   Link #43
Sekirei07
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 26
Kyuube IS the most evil of all magical creatures. Here are the reasons:

1. His design: He completely lacks any and all facial emotions. He looks like a freaking creepy ass doll and his lack of any physical emotion makes him all the more in-human and remorseful.

2. His power: The only ability he seems to have is basically 1 wish in exchange for basically slavery. This is almost the same as making a fucking deal with the devil. One wish in exchange for your soul.

3. The magical girls: The girls have to recharge there power from Grief Seeds, but there initial power comes from Kyuube. What does that make Kyuube exactly?

4. How he treats people: When Mami died he just up and looked for the quickest replacement. He didn't even bother to send the girl back when Sayaka became a MG and took no responsibility for his actions.

5. His convenient timing: Just when Mami was about to die Kyuube shows up "Conveniently" to grant her any wish (although she had no choice). When Sayaka was at her breaking point with the boy she loved, who just happened to show up?
__________________
Pedo-Kuch approves
Sekirei07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:13   Link #44
fukarming
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekirei07 View Post
Kyuube IS the most evil of all magical creatures. Here are the reasons:

1. His design: He completely lacks any and all facial emotions. He looks like a freaking creepy ass doll and his lack of any physical emotion makes him all the more in-human and remorseful.

2. His power: The only ability he seems to have is basically 1 wish in exchange for basically slavery. This is almost the same as making a fucking deal with the devil. One wish in exchange for your soul.

3. The magical girls: The girls have to recharge there power from Grief Seeds, but there initial power comes from Kyuube. What does that make Kyuube exactly?

4. How he treats people: When Mami died he just up and looked for the quickest replacement. He didn't even bother to send the girl back when Sayaka became a MG and took no responsibility for his actions.

5. His convenient timing: Just when Mami was about to die Kyuube shows up "Conveniently" to grant her any wish (although she had no choice). When Sayaka was at her breaking point with the boy she loved, who just happened to show up?
1. Completely agree

2. Other MG don't even have a wish. The mascot basically brainwash them by saying the world is in danger/ innocents will die...etc and put naive gradeschool and teenage girl on battlefield.

3. Pure speculation. In RPG you get your initial power from a deity being. After that you beat up evil to pick up potions and powerups. So the deity being and evil are in this together?

4. For MG in other series (sailormoon/ CCS/ pretty cure...etc), the mascot lives with the MG for an extended period of time and they develop friendship and stuff. In Madoca Magica Kyubei did not live with the MG (Kyubei stays with Madoka, his biggest potential client, rather than Mami, the MG in that district.) Kyubei and Mami/ Kyoko...etc are simply not that close

5. Opportunistic maybe, but not evil.
__________________
They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
fukarming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:23   Link #45
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Oh god, I just saw the light... Kyube wanting something... and offering a payment in exchange for a service...

IT'S CAPITALISM!

Damn, I'm heading down to the stores to protest this exchange of goods and services right now. We should all be communists, goddamnit. Or socialists! But offering one thing for another and being upfront with the stuff being exchanged? That's fuckin' evil; Lenin and Stalin told me so!

So, thanks guys for helping me see the light! I'm glad that you are all like me, and shun this horrid, horrid practice of goods and service exchange. Glad to know that none of you ever bought any type of good nor service!^^
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:27   Link #46
Sekirei07
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 26
No, he also lied to them. He did not tell them about the other magical girl who had openly said she was going to kill Sayaka.

Withholding vital information is the same as lying. Gives a better chance to get them to act.

I also thought that the whole food chain idea.

Witches power is fueled by the death of people
MG power is fueled by the death (Grief Seeds) of Witches

Where does Kyuube draw his power from?
The most extreme and evil thing I can think of is he draws his power from the death of MG...
__________________
Pedo-Kuch approves
Sekirei07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:32   Link #47
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekirei07 View Post
No, he also lied to them. He did not tell them about the other magical girl who had openly said she was going to kill Sayaka.

Withholding vital information is the same as lying. Gives a better chance to get them to act.
Eh, sorry, lying is most definitely not the same as not telling someone something. I can pull out a definition from a dictionary if you like, but I assume you have access to one and can reacquaint you with it.

And even if I grant you this, he still was upfront about what he was offering. As he put it, "equivalent exchange" or, you know, the whole freakin' system present in Full Metal Alchemist. Was that evil? Or was it a natural, logical physical principle that also kinda seems to be related to capitalism, too? You know, the whole system that got you that nice computer you're sitting in front of?

If you really feel Kyube is evil, you should be giving up the computer because it was purchased in the same manner as how he acquires magical girls. ;p

"B-b-but, one form of honest capitalism is good while another is bad! Let me have my cognitive dissonance!"
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:33   Link #48
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
Quote:
Where does Kyuube draw his power from?
The most extreme and evil thing I can think of is he draws his power from the death of MG...
That, or from granting wishes and forming contracts with MGs.. Explains why he is so obsessed with getting contracts out.
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-04, 23:38   Link #49
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
That, or from granting wishes and forming contracts with MGs.. Explains why he is so obsessed with getting contracts out.
But the doesn't explain why he is so interested in Madoka. I think there's something more to his real motivation, something specifically related to Madoka. Just speculation at this point of course, but we'll see.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:05   Link #50
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Even this defense of Kyuube is dependent, of course, on the premise that little girls are sufficiently mature enough to make a "capitalist" exchange where the price of the goods and/or services purchased is either their: A. Life, B. Soul or C. Both.
Guardian Enzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:09   Link #51
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Even this defense of Kyuube is dependent, of course, on the premise that little girls are sufficiently mature enough to make a "capitalist" exchange where the price of the goods and/or services purchased is either their: A. Life, B. Soul or C. Both.
Now this is a fair point, and one of the better ones I've seen.

But as we've seen in other shows, many other 9-14 year old girls are expected to make life and death decisions, and are forced into combat many times against their own will. If Kyube is evil, then the other shows are downright diabolical.

Apply standards evenly.

One thing I'd like to know, is why Kyube does only offer these contracts to girls? Are they the only ones with potential? No boys or people over a certain age? Odds are the show won't address this, which leaves it as a big gaping plot hole.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:15   Link #52
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Now this is a fair point, and one of the better ones I've seen.

But as we've seen in other shows, many other 9-14 year old girls are expected to make life and death decisions, and are forced into combat many times against their own will. If Kyube is evil, then the other shows are downright diabolical.
I strongly agree.

It's amazing how much hate Kyubey is getting for actions that are mild compared to most magical girl "mascot" characters.

Seeing fan reaction to him has been fascinating. I feel like I'm getting to see what people really think of certain magical girl character types...
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:17   Link #53
Ricky Controversy
Frandle & Nightbag
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I strongly agree.

It's amazing how much hate Kyubey is getting for actions that are mild compared to most magical girl "mascot" characters.

Seeing fan reaction to him has been fascinating. I feel like I'm getting to see what people really think of certain magical girl character types...
Actually, what I think we're really seeing here is how readily people will be swayed by the tonal construction of the show. SHAFT is not making any efforts to pretty up what goes on in this show, versus other Mahou Shoujo programs.
__________________
Ricky Controversy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:24   Link #54
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Apply standards evenly.
Every story is its own universe, so it kinda baffles me how you use another series to support your take on this one. I mean, I know there are things like genre conventions, but considering this series is set to subvert these convention to some extent, your approach doesn't seem to make much sense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you or anything. I'm just a bit confused about this.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:26   Link #55
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Now this is an interesting discussion, and I ask this not as a challenge but as a genuine inquiry: what are some other mascot characters who have done far worse things than Kyuubey's "mild" actions and not been savaged by fans? I confess Mahou Shoujo is not my favorite genre and I haven't watched every series out there, but I've seen quite a few - and not many examples of this are coming to mind.
Guardian Enzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:28   Link #56
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Every story is its own universe, so it kinda baffles me how you use another series to support your take on this one. I mean, I know there are things like genre conventions, but considering this series is set to subvert these convention to some extent, your approach doesn't seem to make much sense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you or anything. I'm just a bit confused about this.
You don't see how you can compare one 14 year old girl being forced to fight by a magical animal and watching her friends die one after another, with another 14 year old girl being offered the option of fighting or not, and watching one friend die?

I'm baffled how you can't. Comparisons have been a fair literary technique for hundreds of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Now this is an interesting discussion, and I ask this not as a challenge but as a genuine inquiry: what are some other mascot characters who have done far worse things than Kyuubey's "mild" actions and not been savaged by fans? I confess Mahou Shoujo is not my favorite genre and I haven't watched every series out there, but I've seen quite a few - and not many examples of this are coming to mind.
Luna, a cat in Sailor Moon - made Usagi into a Magical girl, and forced her to fight over and over, even when Usagi was damn scared and didn't want to. Hell, in the final fight, Usagi watched her good friends killed, one right after another, and she broke down for awhile.

Keroberos in Card Captor Sakura - Made Sakura track down all the cards and recapture them. And some of the cards were pretty dangerous, and she had to undertake some fairly risky missions to get some. And get this: Keroberos was supposed to be guardian of the guards, and it was his job to guard them. He failed, and made Sakura clean up the mess.

Mepple/Mipple from Pretty Cure - latched themselves onto two girls and made them fight.

Yuuno from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Not technically a magical animal. He called for help and Nanoha, a 9 year old girl, responded. He begged her to help him fight a monster that nearly killed him. To his credit, he later came to realize how dangerous it could be for her and tried to tell her he'd take it back over, but she insisted on helping.

I'm sure others can call up more, but these are some of the few I remember.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:29   Link #57
Tenjo_Utena
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And as Fukarming and I mentioned, if you find Kyube evil, then you have to find Luna, Yuuno, Keroberos, Mepple/Mipple, and many other magical animals evil as well. In fact, Kyube is less evil then them, because they practically forced their girls into doing it. Madoka is the first one to just be given the freedom to choose, and to sometimes be told to stay out of it.
I don't want to go too far off track, but let me make some arguments here for the other mascot characters. Luna didn't make anyone anything, she "awakened" the sailor senshi from their millennium? long nap to fight against an enemy that was after them specifically.

Sakura-chan, it could be argued, was never in any mortal danger, ever. If she had lost, then the worst thing that would have happened is the Clow's legacy would have been lost.


Back to QB, I find it odd that he stated in episode 2 that having a soul gem means you have to fight witches, but he doesn't seem concerned at all that
Spoiler for Episode 5:
The difference between a witch and a familiar could be what makes all the difference, but since they both prey on human lives, its odd that such a distinction is drawn.
Tenjo_Utena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:40   Link #58
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenjo_Utena View Post
I don't want to go too far off track, but let me make some arguments here for the other mascot characters. Luna didn't make anyone anything, she "awakened" the sailor senshi from their millennium? long nap to fight against an enemy that was after them specifically.
Not quite. Queen Beryl was mostly out to conquer the Earth and free Metallia/Negaforce. If Usagi didn't fight, yeah, highly likely Beryl would have taken over. But same thing here: If Kyube doesn't get MG's, then the witches will take over humanity.

Quote:
Sakura-chan, it could be argued, was never in any mortal danger, ever. If she had lost, then the worst thing that would have happened is the Clow's legacy would have been lost.
If she chose not to fight, then yeah. But after Keroberos guilted ed her into it (worse than Kyube, IMO), she was at very real risk of dying. Firey card ring a bell? She almost drowned with Watery, too. I never read the manga, and it's been awhile since I saw the series, but she wasn't exactly safe with some of those cards.

This is drifting a bit off track, but suffice it to say that, compared to some magical animals, Kyube is a damn saint. Madoka is about the only potential MG that has been given the luxury of choosing not to fight. No one else had that. Well, Nanoha technically might have been able to get out of it later, but she chose not to.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:42   Link #59
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'm baffled how you can't. Comparisons have been a fair literary technique for hundreds of years.
I'm just saying that in this particular case things are a little different. For example, genre conventions dictates no main character dies in a magical girl show as early as episode 3, yet Mami died. So when it comes to this series, it kinda seems that if you base your argument on genre conventions (other shows of the same genre) you would end up being misleaded.

That's why I think the comparison with other shows is not as useful in this case as it would be with a show that follows those conventions instead of trying to subvert them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If Kyube doesn't get MG's, then the witches will take over humanity.
Kyubey never stated this. It was just Mami and Sayaka mostly the ones who assumed that, and they were/are the more naive of the bunch.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-05, 00:45   Link #60
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I'm just saying that in this particular case things are a little different. For example, genre conventions dictates no main character dies in a magical girl show as early as episode 3, yet Mami died. So when it comes to this series, it kinda seems that if you base your argument on genre conventions (other shows of the same genre) you would end up being misleaded.

That's why I think the comparison with other shows is not as useful in this case as it would be with a show that follows those conventions instead of trying to subvert them.
In all honesty, though, if you take the stance that every show is a little difference, then you arrive at the conclusion that you can't compare anything to anything else, because everything is a little different.

I think you can see how that would be a problem.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
characters

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.