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Old 2011-02-05, 00:47   Link #61
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Luna, a cat in Sailor Moon - made Usagi into a Magical girl, and forced her to fight over and over, even when Usagi was damn scared and didn't want to. Hell, in the final fight, Usagi watched her good friends killed, one right after another, and she broke down for awhile.

Keroberos in Card Captor Sakura - Made Sakura track down all the cards and recapture them. And some of the cards were pretty dangerous, and she had to undertake some fairly risky missions to get some. And get this: Keroberos was supposed to be guardian of the guards, and it was his job to guard them. He failed, and made Sakura clean up the mess.

Mepple/Mipple from Pretty Cure - latched themselves onto two girls and made them fight.

Yuuno from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Not technically a magical animal. He called for help and Nanoha, a 9 year old girl, responded. He begged her to help him fight a monster that nearly killed him. To his credit, he later came to realize how dangerous it could be for her and tried to tell her he'd take it back over, but she insisted on helping.

I'm sure others can call up more, but these are some of the few I remember.
Well, I'll be honest and say that I don't know enough about the fan-based side of these series to really comment on how those characters were judged by the viewers. But I do think there's something of an objective difference in just how grim the life of a Puella Magica is compared to the life of a mahou shoujo in some of those series.

I also think it might be perfectly true that context is affecting perception here. Because Urobochi and Shinbo are painting this is much more "realistic" tones than were used in those series, Kyuube's actions seem much more sinister. And, frankly, it's pretty rare to have a real debate within the series itself about the merits of magical girldom - at least to the extent it's happening here - and that impacts the way things are perceived too.
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Old 2011-02-05, 00:48   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
In all honesty, though, if you take the stance that every show is a little difference
This series seems a lot different from other MG shows to me. Really, I don't see much ground for comparison.
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Old 2011-02-05, 00:50   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I also think it might be perfectly true that context is affecting perception here. Because Urobochi and Shinbo are painting this is much more "realistic" tones than were used in those series, Kyuube's actions seem much more sinister. And, frankly, it's pretty rare to have a real debate within the series itself about the merits of magical girldom - at least to the extent it's happening here - and that impacts the way things are perceived too.
All of which is--I think--a very good thing. When a particular type of story has been told often enough, it needs to be refreshed, and the way to do that is to pull at some of the threaded assumptions that make it up.

That doesn't mean that every mahou shoujo needs to be dark now, nor is this the first story of its kind with dark undertones, but if it can attract a large viewership and spark this level of debate, it just might break some new ground.
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Old 2011-02-05, 00:56   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This series seems a lot different from other MG shows to me. Really, I don't see much ground for comparison.
You honestly don't see how you can compare one MG series that has death, with another MG series that has death?

Hell, Nanoha had child torture. One 9 year old girl watched her family be killed in front of her eyes and the experience drove her over the edge.

Seriously, many other Mahou Shojo shows were dark and had grim and gritty details. Despite what you may think, Madoka wasn't the first. You should really go back and watch some of them, and you'll notice it.

Edit: And Rayearth, ooooh, Rayearth....
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Old 2011-02-05, 00:59   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Seriously, many other Mahou Shojo shows were dark and had grim and gritty details. Despite what you may think, Madoka wasn't the first. You should really go back and watch some of them, and you'll notice it.
Yeah well, I've watched all of those. If you really can't see how this series is pretty different from those shows then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 2011-02-05, 01:01   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Actually, what I think we're really seeing here is how readily people will be swayed by the tonal construction of the show. SHAFT is not making any efforts to pretty up what goes on in this show, versus other Mahou Shoujo programs.
That's an interesting perspective, and it could be correct.

I guess that I personally tend to simply focus on the facts at hand, and not allow how bright and colorful (or dark and full of dread) a show is to effect how I view those facts, and how they relate to the characters.

Heavily armed foes fighting a fierce battle over lush green hills on a bright sunny day can lead to a lot of nasty deaths just as assuredly as heavily armed foes fighting a fierce battle on top of a barren wasteland shrouded with dark ominous clouds can.


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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You don't see how you can compare one 14 year old girl being forced to fight by a magical animal and watching her friends die one after another, with another 14 year old girl being offered the option of fighting or not, and watching one friend die?

I'm baffled how you can't. Comparisons have been a fair literary technique for hundreds of years.
Agreed.


Quote:
Luna, a cat in Sailor Moon - made Usagi into a Magical girl, and forced her to fight over and over, even when Usagi was damn scared and didn't want to. Hell, in the final fight, Usagi watched her good friends killed, one right after another, and she broke down for awhile.

Keroberos in Card Captor Sakura - Made Sakura track down all the cards and recapture them. And some of the cards were pretty dangerous, and she had to undertake some fairly risky missions to get some. And get this: Keroberos was supposed to be guardian of the guards, and it was his job to guard them. He failed, and made Sakura clean up the mess.

Mepple/Mipple from Pretty Cure - latched themselves onto two girls and made them fight.

Yuuno from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Not technically a magical animal. He called for help and Nanoha, a 9 year old girl, responded. He begged her to help him fight a monster that nearly killed him. To his credit, he later came to realize how dangerous it could be for her and tried to tell her he'd take it back over, but she insisted on helping.

I'm sure others can call up more, but these are some of the few I remember.
Those are the ones I was thinking of too, yeah.


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Originally Posted by Tenjo_Utena View Post
I don't want to go too far off track, but let me make some arguments here for the other mascot characters. Luna didn't make anyone anything, she "awakened" the sailor senshi from their millennium? long nap to fight against an enemy that was after them specifically.
Luna absolutely made the Sailor Senshi fight dangerous battles. She kept telling Usagi over and over how she had to deal with old, deadly enemies. The idea of simply going into hiding was never offered to the Sailor Senshi.


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Sakura-chan, it could be argued, was never in any mortal danger, ever. If she had lost, then the worst thing that would have happened is the Clow's legacy would have been lost.
I disagree. Sakura fought some very dangerous and potentially lethal Clow Cards. Not to mention that...

Spoiler for Major Card Captor Sakura spoiler:


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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yeah well, I've watched all of those. If you really can't see how this series is pretty different from those shows then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Sure, this series is "pretty different".

Because it has a darker tonal construction, as Ricky alluded to.

But that doesn't change the basic facts at play.

A protagonist character death is a protagonist character death. Magical girls fighting in dangerous battles is magical girls fighting in dangerous battles. And contracting (or pretty much forcing) teenage girls to fight those dangerous battles is contracting (or forcing) teenage girls to fight those dangerous battles.

Is The Joker any less of a vicious serial killer because he's a laughing man in colorful clown make-up, as opposed to Hannibal Lecter who looks like a very creepy old man? Is Batman less of a hero than Superman because Batman wears black and looks scary, while Superman wears bright primary colors and looks inspirational?
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Old 2011-02-05, 01:44   Link #67
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Kaijo your saying its fair because its capitalism, but even in capitalism this is considered not good.

Kyuu is using freak Absolute Advantage. Your saying it like this is a Comparative Advantage scenario.

He looks for girls who he can have an absolute advantage against (as well as potential) and forces them to become MG. He had an absolute advantage with Mami, Sayaka's friend had no hope so that was another absolute advantage he could exploit.

There is a big plot hole as well with what happens when the girls grow up? Or have all of them died before that has happened.

Edit: Also Kaijo, A Lie: A known truth expressed as an untruth. Kyuu knew that another MG had come and was targeting there lives. But he gave off the expression that everything was fine and they were not in danger. That is a LIE. He lied.
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Old 2011-02-05, 02:05   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Because it has a darker tonal construction, as Ricky alluded to.
I was thinking more on the line of questioning the role of the magical girl itself, the ambiguity of the magical animal. The "antagonist" (the witches) seeming more like animal feeding themselves than evil forces. The unclear motivations and morals in general, etc...

I don't know about you, but to me all this seems pretty alien to the magical girl genre.
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Old 2011-02-05, 02:07   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Sekirei07 View Post
Kaijo your saying its fair because its capitalism, but even in capitalism this is considered not good.

Kyuu is using freak Absolute Advantage. Your saying it like this is a Comparative Advantage scenario.

He looks for girls who he can have an absolute advantage against (as well as potential) and forces them to become MG.
He has not forced anybody to become a MG. In this area, he's better than most other characters of his character type.


Quote:
He had an absolute advantage with Mami, Sayaka's friend had no hope so that was another absolute advantage he could exploit.
Companies selling prescription glasses have an "absolute advantage" over me, because I'm very near-sighted and need such glasses simply to go through my day-to-day routine.

Does that make Vogue Optical evil?


Quote:

There is a big plot hole as well with what happens when the girls grow up? Or have all of them died before that has happened.

Edit: Also Kaijo, A Lie: A known truth expressed as an untruth. Kyuu knew that another MG had come and was targeting there lives. But he gave off the expression that everything was fine and they were not in danger.
Kyubey has shown exactly two expressions so far in this anime. One when he's badly beat up (Episode 1), and the other one, which he has on all the time. So he doesn't tend to give off an expression of much of anything, at any time.

Anyway, withholding information is not the same as lying.

Perhaps Kyubey simply maintains a certain degree of confidentiality with the magical girls that he works with.

Is it deceitful for Kyubey to not tell Sayaka about Kyoko's plans... or would Kyubey be making a serious breech of confidentiality with Kyoko by revealing her plans to Sayaka?
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Old 2011-02-05, 02:13   Link #70
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At this point, I'm not convinced that Kyuubey is purely evil, but he is definitely suspicious of some ulterior motive. At the moment, he reminds me of the Hare from Rozen Maiden, the liasion, with the goal of catalyzing the production and relationships between the various magical girls in this case, and it seems to be somewhat of a "game" for him. This isn't necessarily evil, in fact, if I were to describe an alignment for him it would be True Neutral. Only time will tell if this suspicion comes true, or if it is merely a suspicion that ends up being false. Given Madoka Magica's plot and the number of twists that have been implemented, I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuubey's character deviates.
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Old 2011-02-05, 02:44   Link #71
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He has not forced
Companies selling prescription glasses have an "absolute advantage" over me, because I'm very near-sighted and need such glasses simply to go through my day-to-day routine.

Does that make Vogue Optical evil?
That is not an absolute advantage, that is a comparative advantage. Vogue Optical are not the only eye glass sellers in the world. You can look at other sellers and "compare" prices. That is what a competitive market is all about and what makes capitalism great for consumers.

Kyuu is shown (so far) to be the only being to make the impossible possible in terms of giving a chance to turn something that can not be remedied by any other earthly means and make it possible.

Mami was about to die, no one other than Kyuu had the resources that she wanted/needed to save her life. He was the sole supplier. The same goes for Sayaka's friend, the hospital had no means of providing the service he wanted/needed. But Kyuu did have it so Sayaka "paid" him for the service. That is absolute advantage.
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Old 2011-02-05, 04:04   Link #72
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Another thing is that Kaijo is spouting bullshit about luna.

Beryl wasn't ever about controlling the earth, but destroying it. As in, killing every single person in it.

She was possessed by Metallia, and the whole point was to stop metallia, who is an eldtritch horror that Eat Anything (like, literally eating a planet won't take metallia long).

Another point is that Where we know there are lots of MG in madoka, Senshi are extremely limited in numbers.

A third point, like i said, is you can't talk about capitalism when it's about putting little girls into slavery.

Wtf man.

Edit: also, As far as i know, Luna never forced Usagi to do anything (except maybe save her best friend naru in the first ep), you are using fanon too much. Like those people who forget Usagi was 14-17 and Mamoru 17-20, and both had sex from early on in the manga regularly.
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Old 2011-02-05, 04:41   Link #73
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QB IS A NINE-TAILED DEMON FOX!! XDDD

Ok, that symbolic shadow of him as if he had nine tails made me think of that.. XD Maybe that's his real appearance..

but then again, i can't still tell if his evil or not..
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Old 2011-02-05, 05:21   Link #74
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I really don't understand why everyone jumps on Kyubei about not telling Sayaka about Kyoko. What good will that do? It is not like Sayaka will go deep inside the mountain and train a special skill to counter Kyoko. I fail to see how the scenario will be different if Kyubei told Sayaka about Kyoko ahead of time.

Another point about Kyubei is his contract with Mami. If Kyubei didn't show up, Mami will be dead already. Being a MG may have a shitty life, but it beats death, right? (Otherwise Mami can just kill herself if she thinks death is better than a MG life)

Besides, Mami is unhappy because she is lonely - Life of a MG is a lonely life, kinda like a spy or undercover that you cannot talk to anyone about. She looks very happy in her last fight, when she knows she will have MG friend. If Mami were not killed, she will be a happy MG.
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Old 2011-02-05, 07:14   Link #75
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Well think of it this way. Would you rather die with your family, or live for maybe a few more years of painful hardship all alone with your family still dead and you dying an even more gruesome death?

Knowing about Kyoko before hand would have helped out a great deal in trying to befriend her or at least contemplating what to do next. Kyuu was also leading Kyoko on as to Sayaka being stronger than her. If you think your opponent is weak you will hold out since they won't be worth your time. Kyuu does things in the best interest of himself, not for the girls he contracts with.

I think we also need to figure out how his freaking name should be spelled out lol
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Old 2011-02-05, 10:29   Link #76
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I really don't understand why everyone jumps on Kyubei about not telling Sayaka about Kyoko. What good will that do? It is not like Sayaka will go deep inside the mountain and train a special skill to counter Kyoko. I fail to see how the scenario will be different if Kyubei told Sayaka about Kyoko ahead of time.
The answer is simple. If Kyoko had the urge, she would have 1 shot Sayaka then and there, because it would have come from no where. That Kyoko did not capitalise on this advantage is irrelevant because the choice remained there.

If Sayaka was aware that she was being targetted, she would not be so easy to surprise.

Additionally knowing that someone is out to get you allows you to do a counter ambush by tracking said person down. This advantage will be negated if Kyubei told Kyoko that he updated Sayaka on her.

The ending in that case would be a duel where no one side has surprise at all.
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Old 2011-02-05, 11:11   Link #77
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I strongly agree.

It's amazing how much hate Kyubey is getting for actions that are mild compared to most magical girl "mascot" characters.
It's not so much hate. If you want hate, look no further than Yuuno Scrya. Seven years and the hate for Yuuno AND his fans is still going strong (even tho more people are getting fed up with the pairing bullshit of Nanoha). I remember enough instances where people have told any Yuuno shippers to go die in a fire, and fanfic writers who write fics with Yuuno that are not hate fics are harassed. It tells a lot about the hate for a character.

A better sentiment for Kyuubey would be "horrified". His actions, the way he does them are horrifying.
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Old 2011-02-05, 11:39   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Another thing is that Kaijo is spouting bullshit about luna.

Beryl wasn't ever about controlling the earth, but destroying it. As in, killing every single person in it.

She was possessed by Metallia, and the whole point was to stop metallia, who is an eldtritch horror that Eat Anything (like, literally eating a planet won't take metallia long).
Okay, so she wanted to destroy the Earth instead of enslave it. So? What's the difference? The point we're discussing has to do with Kyube giving people a choice.

Quote:
Another point is that Where we know there are lots of MG in madoka, Senshi are extremely limited in numbers.
Actually, theoretically speaking, there are tons of Senshi, too, spread out over the universe. Each season kept adding more and more. It's just that it is focused on the Senshi of our solar system, because we live here.

So again... so?

Quote:
A third point, like i said, is you can't talk about capitalism when it's about putting little girls into slavery.
I'm not quite sure you understand slavery. Slaves don't have a choice. They are bought and paid for by others. You would do well to not throw around loaded terms, especially when those terms don't apply.

Quote:
Edit: also, As far as i know, Luna never forced Usagi to do anything (except maybe save her best friend naru in the first ep), you are using fanon too much. Like those people who forget Usagi was 14-17 and Mamoru 17-20, and both had sex from early on in the manga regularly.
You should watch the series again. There were plenty of times where Usagi didn't want to get involved or fight, and Luna told her to. Hell, when her friends were getting slaughtered, she was all about "Let's run away and not fight! We're not ready yet!"

At any rate, I have some other thoughts about all this that would be better served in the General Discussion thread, so I'm headed over there, as this is getting off-topic for this thread.
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Old 2011-02-05, 12:38   Link #79
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It's not so much hate. If you want hate, look no further than Yuuno Scrya. Seven years and the hate for Yuuno AND his fans is still going strong (even tho more people are getting fed up with the pairing bullshit of Nanoha). I remember enough instances where people have told any Yuuno shippers to go die in a fire, and fanfic writers who write fics with Yuuno that are not hate fics are harassed. It tells a lot about the hate for a character.

A better sentiment for Kyuubey would be "horrified". His actions, the way he does them are horrifying.
I think there's a fundamental difference here. People who hated Yunno (I'm presuming a bit, here) seemed to hate him not for signing Nanoha up for the MG lifestyle, but because he was kind of useless in combat (he's a researcher after all), wears the girliest shorts ever and because the writers pretty much hung him out to dry by having him do nothing but yell "Nanoha!" twice an episode. I think the Kyuube-hate is pretty much all because of his manipulation and deception.

For the record, I think Yuuno got a bum rap. He was a pretty decent character who got screwed because they had no clue how to use his character.
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Old 2011-02-05, 12:44   Link #80
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But look at Madoka in the broad aspect compared to other series.

In Nanoha, in the very original Triangle series her father was supposed to be dead. But he was alive in the MG Nanoha. Yuno was always apologizing for dragging Nanoha into the whole mess and putting her in danger. Kyuu on the other hand is always trying to get them to join and does not assist at all in fights or even watches the girls backs. The familiars in Nanoha always had devotion to there masters (granted Yuno wasn't tech a familiar but still supported Nanoha)

The original villian in Nanoha, Precia, was not original evil and only wanted to get her daughter back. People can sympathize with her. The Witches in Madoka just want to make people kill themselves so they can grow stronger. You can't sympathize with that.

In Sailormoon you had Yuna, who had complete devoting to the girls, they were the only ones who could do what they could. Kyuu just moves on to the next girl after one dies and doesn't even give a shit.

Madoka is a LOT darker than most MG
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