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Old 2011-02-05, 13:01   Link #81
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Okay, so she wanted to destroy the Earth instead of enslave it. So? What's the difference? The point we're discussing has to do with Kyube giving people a choice.
Kyuubee can't force a contract, but once the contract is done, there is no choice left, hence slavery.

Sailor Moon had the senshi being senshi no matter what happened, Luna didn't turn them into senshi nor made them fight, she just told them that if they didn't fight the world will go kablooi in a few months.


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Actually, theoretically speaking, there are tons of Senshi, too, spread out over the universe. Each season kept adding more and more. It's just that it is focused on the Senshi of our solar system, because we live here.

So again... so?
and those other senshi wouldn't save the senshi on earth, as they are too far and have their own duties.

Senshi are Senshi by default. It has nothing to do with Luna. Beryl and others are trying to kill everyone, and senshi *choose* to fight ot save themselves and others.

It is nothing alike.


Quote:
I'm not quite sure you understand slavery. Slaves don't have a choice. They are bought and paid for by others. You would do well to not throw around loaded terms, especially when those terms don't apply.
But they do. Once the contract is made, they are slaves. Given the contract is never made on fair position, it makes things even harder.
Quote:

You should watch the series again. There were plenty of times where Usagi didn't want to get involved or fight, and Luna told her to. Hell, when her friends were getting slaughtered, she was all about "Let's run away and not fight! We're not ready yet!".
Never happened. You might be thinking of the anime adaptation where eldritch horros were turned into catgirls, the anime adaptation that was publicly criticized by the author.
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Old 2011-02-05, 13:38   Link #82
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Kyuubee can't force a contract, but once the contract is done, there is no choice left, hence slavery.
Maybe, maybe not. We still haven't figured out what makes a girl keep fighting. If all that happens is that she loses her wish, then it's not slavery. She still has the choice.

Look, I'm not sure you understand. Slaves have no rights and no choices by law. Dictionary.com lists it as: "a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant." The girls aren't wholly the property of Kyube. At best, they are an employee. Slaves are property, which the girls aren't. Is Kyoko a slave? Looks to me like she made her own choice and rather enjoys it. Slaves typically do not.

Quote:
Sailor Moon had the senshi being senshi no matter what happened, Luna didn't turn them into senshi nor made them fight, she just told them that if they didn't fight the world will go kablooi in a few months.
Then you haven't watched the series lately. Luna was very much a nagging mother, and Usagi complained about it a lot.

Quote:
Senshi are Senshi by default. It has nothing to do with Luna. Beryl and others are trying to kill everyone, and senshi *choose* to fight ot save themselves and others.
Just like Kyoko chose to fight, eh? Just like Sayaka chose to fight, eh? You keep trying to draw this distinction, but whichever way you slice it, it's not working, sorry.

Quote:
Never happened. You might be thinking of the anime adaptation where eldritch horros were turned into catgirls, the anime adaptation that was publicly criticized by the author.
I'm sorry, but the anime adaption did happen. Regardless of whether the author liked it or not, the story exists. Pretending it doesn't, well, I suppose we have nothing more to talk about if you are going into denial about whether the anime even exists or not.
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Old 2011-02-05, 15:46   Link #83
fukarming
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Originally Posted by Sekirei07 View Post
Well think of it this way. Would you rather die with your family, or live for maybe a few more years of painful hardship all alone with your family still dead and you dying an even more gruesome death?

Knowing about Kyoko before hand would have helped out a great deal in trying to befriend her or at least contemplating what to do next. Kyuu was also leading Kyoko on as to Sayaka being stronger than her. If you think your opponent is weak you will hold out since they won't be worth your time. Kyuu does things in the best interest of himself, not for the girls he contracts with.

I think we also need to figure out how his freaking name should be spelled out lol
Like I said, Mami always has the choice to kill herself.

You really think Kyoko is befriendable? It is like putting an absolute democrat and republican and lock them in a room. They are not going to convince each other no matter what.

Kyubei making Kyoko believe Sayaka is stronger than her? I completely miss that. Would you care to point me to the episode scene?

So what is this interest of himself? We still didn't know. Besides, what is wrong of Kyubei thinking about himself? Everyone in the world does that. Your boss likely to think about himself first, then the company, and only after that it is you. So your boss is evil?

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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
The answer is simple. If Kyoko had the urge, she would have 1 shot Sayaka then and there, because it would have come from no where. That Kyoko did not capitalise on this advantage is irrelevant because the choice remained there.

If Sayaka was aware that she was being targetted, she would not be so easy to surprise.

Additionally knowing that someone is out to get you allows you to do a counter ambush by tracking said person down. This advantage will be negated if Kyubei told Kyoko that he updated Sayaka on her.

The ending in that case would be a duel where no one side has surprise at all.
But that didn't happen (1 shotting Sayaka) and of course that is relevant. Think of it this way: Everyone jumping on Kyubei for not telling risk of MG after seeing Mami died. No one jumps on Luna/ Keroberos/ Mepple/ Mipple/ Yuna because in their series no MG is killed. The result is always relevant.

Besides, we don't know why Kyoko do not ambush and 1 shot Sayaka. From what we saw, Kyoko loves to fight and bully people like Sayaka around rather than she is stupid. Kyubei probably knew that.

So you are saying Sayaka should track down Kyoko and counter ambush her? When Kyoko does that you are screaming foul, when Sayaka does that it is OK? Doing so will only make their fight more fierce and make the situation much worse than it is now. To be honest, I believe that is the exact reason why Kyubei did not tell Sayaka about Kyoko - Kyoko will go all out in the very beginning (She only wants to put Sayaka in the hospital for a couple month at the beginning) if she was ambushed, kill Sayaka before Homura can interfere. And after that she will be mad at Kyubei.
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Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-05, 15:59   Link #84
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
But that didn't happen (1 shotting Sayaka) and of course that is relevant. Think of it this way: Everyone jumping on Kyubei for not telling risk of MG after seeing Mami died. No one jumps on Luna/ Keroberos/ Mepple/ Mipple/ Yuna because in their series no MG is killed. The result is always relevant..
Example: I told your dad that i'm going to kill you. He believed me. Your dad then told me where you would be at 12 pm on 5th Feb 2011. He did not tell you that i was aiming for you.

Does your dad want you dead/wounded?

Whether i actually use a sniper rife and shoot you is relevant. I know where you will be. I can choose to kill you. Why? Because your dad told me. Again does your dad want you dead/wounded?

This is what i mean when i say whether Kyoko 1 shots Sayaka is irrelevant to Kyubei's motive

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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
So you are saying Sayaka should track down Kyoko and counter ambush her? When Kyoko does that you are screaming foul, when Sayaka does that it is OK? Doing so will only make their fight more fierce and make the situation much worse than it is now.
You fail to understand the difference between an OPTION and whether or not to take that option.

I am saying Sakaya COULD counter ambush her and thus your stand on Kyubei being neutral would work because he informed BOTH sides.

Whether it would make the fight fierce or whatnot is irrelevant. A neutral person does not aid any side or he will aid both sides EQUALLY.

An example: You're charged with murder. The judge in the case keeps refusing to allow you and your lawyer to defend yourself and keeps refusing any objections you raise against the public prosecutor.

Is the judge NEUTRAL?
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Old 2011-02-05, 16:30   Link #85
fukarming
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Example: I told your dad that i'm going to kill you. He believed me. Your dad then told me where you would be at 12 pm on 5th Feb 2011. He did not tell you that i was aiming for you.

Does your dad want you dead/wounded?

Whether i actually use a sniper rife and shoot you is relevant. I know where you will be. I can choose to kill you. Why? Because your dad told me. Again does your dad want you dead/wounded?

This is what i mean when i say whether Kyoko 1 shots Sayaka is irrelevant to Kyubei's motive
A much better analogy would be: A friend of yours is a gang member. He told you his gang is going to kill another guy, which you also knows. Are you going to tell the other guy about that?

You are using the "normal" MG/ magical mascot relationship (closer than best buds) and apply it to the world of madoka magica, which the relationship of MG and Kyubei is simply not that close.

For Kyubei=evil because he didn't tell Sayaka, it needs to be established that Kyubei is closer to Sayaka than Kyoko, which I do not see the evidence at all.

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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
You fail to understand the difference between an OPTION and whether or not to take that option.

I am saying Sakaya COULD counter ambush her and thus your stand on Kyubei being neutral would work because he informed BOTH sides.

Whether it would make the fight fierce or whatnot is irrelevant. A neutral person does not aid any side or he will aid both sides EQUALLY.

An example: You're charged with murder. The judge in the case keeps refusing to allow you and your lawyer to defend yourself and keeps refusing any objections you raise against the public prosecutor.

Is the judge NEUTRAL?
After Kyoko told Kyubei about her plan, Kyubei can never be neutral. Telling Sayaka would give the advantage to Sayaka.

Using the same gang member theory: Once you were told about the gang's plan, you can no longer neutral. Being the whistle blower (telling the guy about to be beat up aka Sayaka) will make you the enemy of the first gang member aka Kyoko)

The best thing you can do is to hide below your bed and pretend you didn't hear anything. If gang member Sayaka survive the attack you simply faint ignorance.
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-05, 16:48   Link #86
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
A much better analogy would be: A friend of yours is a gang member. He told you his gang is going to kill another guy, which you also knows. Are you going to tell the other guy about that?

You are using the "normal" MG/ magical mascot relationship (closer than best buds) and apply it to the world of madoka magica, which the relationship of MG and Kyubei is simply not that close.

For Kyubei=evil because he didn't tell Sayaka, it needs to be established that Kyubei is closer to Sayaka than Kyoko, which I do not see the evidence at all.

Using the same gang member theory: Once you were told about the gang's plan, you can no longer neutral. Being the whistle blower (telling the guy about to be beat up aka Sayaka) will make you the enemy of the first gang member aka Kyoko)

The best thing you can do is to hide below your bed and pretend you didn't hear anything. If gang member Sayaka survive the attack you simply faint ignorance.
Again in both examples you forget or ignore two things. Kyubei warned Kyoko about Homura's presence. Is that neutrality and what is his motive?

Then there's the problem of Kyubei accompanying Kyoko when she spies on Sayaka. How does she know where/who Sayaka is? Who provided information? Again what does that say about motive?

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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
After Kyoko told Kyubei about her plan, Kyubei can never be neutral. Telling Sayaka would give the advantage to Sayaka.
This excuse is false. As i already mentioned if he tells sayaka AND kyoko, neither can get the drop on the other = fairness.
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:20   Link #87
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Maybe, maybe not. We still haven't figured out what makes a girl keep fighting. If all that happens is that she loses her wish, then it's not slavery. She still has the choice.

Look, I'm not sure you understand. Slaves have no rights and no choices by law. Dictionary.com lists it as: "a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant." The girls aren't wholly the property of Kyube. At best, they are an employee. Slaves are property, which the girls aren't. Is Kyoko a slave? Looks to me like she made her own choice and rather enjoys it. Slaves typically do not.
And magical girls sacrfice every desire for but one hope.


Quote:


Just like Kyoko chose to fight, eh? Just like Sayaka chose to fight, eh? You keep trying to draw this distinction, but whichever way you slice it, it's not working, sorry.
Kyoko and Sayaka have no choices about fighting. A MG is forced to fight agaisnt witches, that's established.

Senshi are senshi not because of luna or any kind of contract- they are senshi by birth (or even prior to birth).


Quote:
Then you haven't watched the series lately. Luna was very much a nagging mother, and Usagi complained about it a lot.



I'm sorry, but the anime adaption did happen. Regardless of whether the author liked it or not, the story exists. Pretending it doesn't, well, I suppose we have nothing more to talk about if you are going into denial about whether the anime even exists or not.
Sure, the same way there is a movie trilogy about Lord Of The Ring. It doesn't mean that it's the *real* Lotr.

The anime Sailor moon wimpified everything in it. If you want to talk about the anime, sure do so, but it's an adaptation.
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:26   Link #88
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
And magical girls sacrfice every desire for but one hope.
Every desire? They can still go shopping. They can still attend school. They can still take part in practically anything else they want to. Even if somehow they are forced to keep fighting witches, that takes take up all their time. You still aren't making a very good case for slave hood here, especially since...

Quote:
Kyoko and Sayaka have no choices about fighting. A MG is forced to fight agaisnt witches, that's established.
Seriously? You're making a case that Kyoko doesn't have a choice about fighting? We are talking about the girl that chose to track down and fight Sayaka? The one that seems rather gleeful about "being on top of the food chain"? Considering what Word of God said about her doing what she wants, you couldn't have picked a worse example to try and tell people she's a slave.

Quote:
Senshi are senshi not because of luna or any kind of contract- they are senshi by birth (or even prior to birth).
And hence, slave to destiny, eh? Man, it's really terrible that Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko were born to be magical girls and had no choice in the... wait? What's that? They actually made the choice? Well, damn, there goes that argument out of the water.

Quote:
Sure, the same way there is a movie trilogy about Lord Of The Ring. It doesn't mean that it's the *real* Lotr.

The anime Sailor moon wimpified everything in it. If you want to talk about the anime, sure do so, but it's an adaptation.
Who cares? If the writer didn't want the anime adaptation made, she shouldn't have signed away writes for it. Oh wait, was she a slave, too? Did she lack free will as well?

Seriously, the validity of a story does not rest on whether one person likes it or not. A story is a story simply because it is told. Ignore it if you like, but you don't get the luxury of ignoring a fact in a debate because it is inconvenient to you.
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:48   Link #89
Kawakanai
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I think I'm going to have to go in the Kyuube is evil camp.

Yes, he's always creeped me out in the way he's always *there* in a crisis to suggest the girl contract with him. I'm wondering if at some point we'll see if QB is setting up the circumstances off-screen to create these *decision points* for girls like Madoka and Sayaka.

I think the thing that sealed the deal for me is the opening scene in episode five and the contract ceremony between Kyuube and Sayaka:

Spoiler for Episode 5 Kyuube-Sayaka contract Scene:

And yet, amidst all this ominous imagery Kyuube's voice is matter of fact. There seems to be a disconnect between the foreshadowing the animation is showing about this creature and the dialog from Kyuube. I think he's very careful in what he says to protect his true motivations (whatever they may be).

But no, I don't think the cabbit is neutral or even good.
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Old 2011-02-05, 18:51   Link #90
fukarming
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Again in both examples you forget or ignore two things. Kyubei warned Kyoko about Homura's presence. Is that neutrality and what is his motive?

Then there's the problem of Kyubei accompanying Kyoko when she spies on Sayaka. How does she know where/who Sayaka is? Who provided information? Again what does that say about motive?



This excuse is false. As i already mentioned if he tells sayaka AND kyoko, neither can get the drop on the other = fairness.
How is telling Kyoko about Homura make Kyubei evil? Kyubei tells Kyoko about Homura to persuade Kyoko not to fight Sayaka.

Kyoko: I will kill Sayaka so I will be the MG of this district.
Kyubei: Even if you kill Sayaka didn't make you automatically the MG in this district as there is another MG (Homura) here.

Gang member theory no. 2
Kyoko: I will kill Sayaka
Kyubei: ......................
Kyoko: Where is this Sayaka now?

Kyubei possible response 1: I know, but I am not telling you.
Kyoko: How dare you not tell me? (beat up Kyubei)

Kyubei possible response 2: I don't know (obviously lying)
Kyoko: How dare you lie to me! Didn't you just contract her yesterday? (beat up Kyubei)

Do you really believe Kyoko will just say "forget it, I am going home" if Kyubei didn't tell Kyoko about Sayaka's location?

Unless Kyubei set up a arena and have Kyoko and Sayaka duel it out, it will never be neutral. Like you suggest, Sayaka will have the option to counter ambush if she was told about Kyoko. There is nothing more dangerous (and at a disadvantage) than someone who thinks they have the initiatives that they don't have. Kyoko thinks she has the initiatives, but Sayaka can easily stab her in the back.

I believe you are suggesting that Kyubei tells Sayaka about Kyoko wanting to kill her, then go back and tell Kyoko that Sayaka knows about her? That is probably the only neutral way for Kyubei. However,

Using gang theory again:
If you tell both side their intention, do you honestly think they will thank you and leave you alone? Of course not, instead before both side fight each other, the first person they will kill is you - the two timing whistle blower.
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-06, 00:53   Link #91
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Kyubei possible response 1: I know, but I am not telling you.
Kyoko: How dare you not tell me? (beat up Kyubei)

Kyubei possible response 2: I don't know (obviously lying)
Kyoko: How dare you lie to me! Didn't you just contract her yesterday? (beat up Kyubei)

Do you really believe Kyoko will just say "forget it, I am going home" if Kyubei didn't tell Kyoko about Sayaka's location?
So you're saying Kyoko coerced her BOSS into telling her stuff? If Kyubei was that easily dead, he would have been killed out of hand by any violent mahous shojo with on a bad hair day.

Using your gang example, subsistute the person giving out the information as the gang boss who recruited the gang members. Big picture change eh?

Member A: Boss i want to kill B
Boss: Ok, B is over at XYZ street right now
Member A: Thanks boss!
Boss: Oh btw, i got another secret member in that area. He might attack you. Look out for him
Member A: Wow boss, you love me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
I believe you are suggesting that Kyubei tells Sayaka about Kyoko wanting to kill her, then go back and tell Kyoko that Sayaka knows about her? That is probably the only neutral way for Kyubei. However,

Using gang theory again:
If you tell both side their intention, do you honestly think they will thank you and leave you alone? Of course not, instead before both side fight each other, the first person they will kill is you - the two timing whistle blower.
Yeah and they kill the gang leader because they tells both to cut out that sh*t.
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:17   Link #92
fukarming
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
So you're saying Kyoko coerced her BOSS into telling her stuff? If Kyubei was that easily dead, he would have been killed out of hand by any violent mahous shojo with on a bad hair day.

Using your gang example, subsistute the person giving out the information as the gang boss who recruited the gang members. Big picture change eh?

Member A: Boss i want to kill B
Boss: Ok, B is over at XYZ street right now
Member A: Thanks boss!
Boss: Oh btw, i got another secret member in that area. He might attack you. Look out for him
Member A: Wow boss, you love me!



Yeah and they kill the gang leader because they tells both to cut out that sh*t.
Except that Kyubei do not have the power of a leader. He is shown powerless before Homura. What make you think he can subdue Kyoko?
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:50   Link #93
Decagon
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Except that Kyubei do not have the power of a leader. He is shown powerless before Homura. What make you think he can subdue Kyoko?
Why didn't he just warn Sayaka to not go into that area where Kyoko was or tell Sayaka she would be better off moving to another city if there was someone willing to kill her stalking her?
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Old 2011-02-06, 01:57   Link #94
fukarming
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Why didn't he just warn Sayaka to not go into that area where Kyoko was or tell Sayaka she would be better off moving to another city if there was someone willing to kill her stalking her?
It is never stated directly, but I believe MG have the power to sense other MG using their power. Thus Mami know Homura is chasing Kyubei; Homura know about Mami's fight; Homura know about Sayaka and Kyoko are fighting...etc When Sayaka starts up her MG power, Kyoko will know.

Sayaka, I believe, still living with her family. Thus going to another city is not an option. (Kyoko, given her rough exterior, make you think she do not live with her family)
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-06, 02:49   Link #95
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
It is never stated directly, but I believe MG have the power to sense other MG using their power. Thus Mami know Homura is chasing Kyubei; Homura know about Mami's fight; Homura know about Sayaka and Kyoko are fighting...etc When Sayaka starts up her MG power, Kyoko will know.

Sayaka, I believe, still living with her family. Thus going to another city is not an option. (Kyoko, given her rough exterior, make you think she do not live with her family)
While I would like to think MGs can sense other MGs, those situations could be explained with defined mechanics--Kyubey was able to call out to Kyoko from another city, so him calling out to Mami would not be out of the question as he also had called out to Madoka when he was being chased. When Mami died, her restraints on Homura disappeared. Even though Homura shows up at every fight, she also had been shown to follow Madoka, who was at every fight with Mami, so just dedicated stalking is not out of the question. Kyoko also used her magic in the observation deck when she was spying on Sayaka, but Sayaka did not notice or even react to that. You could argue that Sayaka being new to her powers may not have noticed, but Kyoko did not seem to show concern even after Kyubey told her about Homura, who he told her was a very strong MG. Of course it could very well be that the reason she was so far away looking through a spyglass was to be out of range of magic detection, but Kyubey seems to have no trouble finding them in either case.

I believe Kyubey could have reasoned with Sayaka to simply stay at home and stay out of the witch hunting business by telling her a strong MG had arrived, even if she was determined to go any way. The issue here is that he didn't even try anything with Sayaka, but had told Kyoko (albiet a day later) that Homura, an unknown quantity, was in the area. If we assume he is a neutral entity only concerned about creating MGs to fight witches, I believe that he would have sensed Kyoko near the familiar and could have told Sayaka to just hunt elsewhere, as I don't believe it would be beneficial for him to lose a MG he just contracted if he were a neutral entity.
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Old 2011-02-06, 22:46   Link #96
Jimmy C
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These debates on whether Kyubei is evil are very interesting.
On one hand, you have people arguing that he is based on how he's animated and the things he say.
On the other hand, you have people arguing that he isn't based on some of his actions being better than other magical girl familiars.
If this dichotomy is deliberate (and that's highly likely) then it's likely that the series will not be revealling the truth until the near end of the series, if even then.
And anyone want to make up a list of the items that support each side of the argument?
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Old 2011-02-07, 00:27   Link #97
Kaijo
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Kyube is evil:
His facial expressions don't really change
An overall feeling of "creepiness"
His contracts amount to something like a death sentence
He takes advantage of the situation to inform girls that he can contract
His shadow when changing Sayaka
He shows up when Sayaka is ready to make a wish
He didn't tell Sayaka about Kyoko
He didn't dissuade Kyoko, at least well enough (debatable, though)

Kyube is simply amoral/no conclusive evidence yet:
Compared to other magical animals, he gives girls the choice
He hasn't manipulated anyone
He's even told the girls not to make a contract until they've thought about it
He's told them goodbye when they decided not to, and apologizes for getting them involved
He hasn't lied

That's about it. Everything else is just a guess, based on what you want to believe.
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Old 2011-02-07, 00:53   Link #98
Kawakanai
Keeper of the Silver Gate
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
He's told them goodbye when they decided not to, and apologizes for getting them involved.
On the face of it this once seems innocent, but walking away from a potential buyer is also is a technique salesmen sometimes pull to push the target towards closing the sale. Just an observation this one may be a manipulation.

Kyube is simply amoral/no conclusive evidence yet:
The speech to Madoka in the opening dream of episode one about not giving up and having the ability to change fate, the power to change things, could be seen as very positive and supportive (The rider being that a contract is needed to make it a reality).

Last edited by Kawakanai; 2011-02-07 at 01:04.
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Old 2011-02-07, 00:59   Link #99
totoum
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Kyube is evil:
His facial expressions don't really change
An overall feeling of "creepiness"
His contracts amount to something like a death sentence
He takes advantage of the situation to inform girls that he can contract
His shadow when changing Sayaka
He shows up when Sayaka is ready to make a wish
He didn't tell Sayaka about Kyoko
He didn't dissuade Kyoko, at least well enough (debatable, though)

Kyube is simply amoral/no conclusive evidence yet:
Compared to other magical animals, he gives girls the choice
He hasn't manipulated anyone
He's even told the girls not to make a contract until they've thought about it
He's told them goodbye when they decided not to, and apologizes for getting them involved
He hasn't lied

That's about it. Everything else is just a guess, based on what you want to believe.
You forgot what I think started the whole QB is evil theory:the anime is full of quotes from faust,a story where the protagonist makes a pact with the devil (who took an animal shape),that's what started it all.
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Old 2011-02-07, 02:37   Link #100
Decagon
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Not on this site no more.
Age: 27
I went and took down every appearance, action, and word QB has from the first two episodes. I try to describe the scene he is in, but I don't give conversational context--I'd hope people use the timestamps to fill that part in. I am sure this is unnecessarily verbose. Timestamps are taken from Nutbladder's subs.

Spoiler for QB in ep 1:

Spoiler for QB in ep 2:
The intent of this is to just have a catalog of what we see him do, what body language he exhibits, his reactions in certain situations, and what he says to accompany those, as these are more concrete to build upon than what he does not say or do, which is more open to interpretation.

I don't think we've seen so much dark imagery with Kyubey that he does not counter with stereotypical mascot fooling around and fidgeting sfx. They've been giving us cues in both directions, but it's been shifting toward more darker cues as of late.

I'll see about doing something similar for ep 3-5, but from a brief rewatch--QB gasps and his body jerks a little (the first time we have seen him without his usual composure?) when Homura enters Charlotte's boss room in the nick of time, although I think someone probably mentioned this already on the episode thread.
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