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Old 2011-02-08, 13:37   Link #1341
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
When I talk about the "no such thing as true altruism" idea, it means that even those Chilean miners were going to get something out of this. The self-respect of their peers and the world, the rush of endorphins from "doing the right thing."
At the end of the day, which has more value: A few moments of warm fuzzies and a few moments of heightened self-respect, or having your life saved?

A truly altruistic act is when you let somebody else have the higher value item instead of you, imo. It's in putting the other person first.


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There is selfishness in everything.
I respectfully disagree. I think that you may be confusing selfishness with simple self-awareness. A self-aware person realizes when s/he's being altruistic, and hence will get the warm fuzzies from that (whether s/he particularly wants them or not, really).

I know a few harder, gruffer men that hate having "mushy feelings" (including the warm fuzzies) and frankly don't care what other people think of them, but that doesn't stop them from showing generosity from time-to-time.

People really do sometimes take actions and deeds primarily (if not solely) for the sake of other people.


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So that's why I don't think badly of Sayaka.
I don't think badly of Sayaka because she's not being selfish, imo.


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Because even if she made a selfish wish (and the jury is still out on that), she's still taken on a death sentence. In the good book, there is a line, "No greater love hath a man than this; that he lay down his life for his friend."
Excellent quote, and pertinent for these discussions. It's indeed a big part of the reason why Sayaka's actions aren't selfish, imo.

We disagree on philosophy, but we agree on Sayaka and Madoka.

So, if you want to discuss altruism/selfishness (apart from its direct relevance to this anime), let's do it over PMs please.


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What I mean by "apply the standard evenly" is the laughable point that somehow Sayaka is selfish but Madoka isn't. If we're going to apply it evenly, the Madoka is just as selfish, acting in her own best interest. Whether or not one agrees with an action taken, does not absolve the action of its inherent properties.
Both Sayaka and Madoka are concerned for other people, but also have some personal benefits in mind (romance, in Sayaka's case; greater self-esteem, in Madoka's case). So, I personally would say that they're on roughly the same point on the selfish-selfless continuum. I would consider both of them less selfish than most, or average at worst.


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Pedophile? Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? Why not just call him a nazi so we can Godwin this thread?


I'm with you here, Kaijo.

Barring real evidence that Kyubey gets some sadistic pleasure out of preying on girls, I think that the "pedophile" term is misplaced here.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:11   Link #1342
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
With all due respect, I think that's flawed logic. If the system is evil, then Kyubey may simply be a victim of it as well.
Oh,definatly,but I have the feeling that it's a "shortcut" that a few people are taking so I pointed it out.

And yes,good remarks about the t-800 and robocop comparaison and also on the "system" getting corrupt over time.Those are some nice food for thought.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:24   Link #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post



I'm with you here, Kaijo.

Barring real evidence that Kyubey gets some sadistic pleasure out of preying on girls, I think that the "pedophile" term is misplaced here.
Did you even read what slick rick said? There is a huge difference between stating, "I view him so far in the light of a sexual predator/pedophile." and "I can affirm he is a pedophile."

And if anything, strawman fallacies from some people of the opposing opinion are NOT going to convince others. Aforementioned fallacies I start seeing a little too much here.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:34   Link #1344
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Did you even read what slick rick said? There is a huge difference between stating, "I view him so far in the light of a sexual predator/pedophile." and "I can affirm he is a pedophile."
Yes, I did read it. I simply disagree with his argument, Sheba, just like Kaijo appears to.

I think that there are some words that have such a strong negative connotation attached to them, that to use them in a figurative sense requires a very high standard.

It's like calling someone "a nazi" just because they can be a bit overly strict every now and then. It's excessive, imo, and it paints a far darker picture than what's really there.


Quote:

And if anything, strawman fallacies from some people of the opposing opinion are NOT going to convince others. Aforementioned fallacies I start seeing a little too much here.
It's a strawman fallacy to argue that heavily loaded terms (like "pedophile", "rape", "nazi", etc...) should be used judiciously?

Besides, I don't see where excessive hyperbole is any better than a strawman argument (indeed, the two are often one and the same).
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:46   Link #1345
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Besides, I don't see where really excessive hyperbole is any better than a strawman argument (indeed, the two are often one and the same).
Which I agree with, because I see them used by both sides which is eventually lead to a "NO YOU" situation.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:49   Link #1346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, I did read it. I simply disagree with his argument, Sheba, just like Kaijo appears to.

I think that there are some words that have such a strong negative connotation attached to them, that to use them in a figurative sense requires a very high standard.




It's a strawman fallacy to expect heavily loaded terms (like "pedophile", "rape", "nazi", etc...) to be used judiciously?

Besides, I don't see where really excessive hyperbole is any better than a strawman argument (indeed, the two are often one and the same).
Well should I have compared him to a murder since I do believe he most likely leads this girls to their deaths? I didn't use such a strong word because I didn't find the situation warranted it. While I don't see yet evidence to suggest he "gets some sadistic pleasure out of preying on girls" I do see enough evidence to suggest that his actions are in themselves fairly deplorable.

In fact a strawman argument and a hyperbole are not the same at all as I never tried to change the subject just emphasize how I feel towards it. It just some, like yourself, who have decided to pull this comment out and use to make me sound extreme in my views.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:49   Link #1347
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Oh,definatly,but I have the feeling that it's a "shortcut" that a few people are taking so I pointed it out.
Gotcha. Good point.

Quote:
And yes,good remarks about the t-800 and robocop comparaison and also on the "system" getting corrupt over time.Those are some nice food for thought.
Thanks. ^_^


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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Which I agree with, because I see them used by both sides which is eventually lead to a "NO YOU" situation.
Fair point. I'll try to keep it in mind.


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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Well should I have compared him to a murder since I do believe he most likely leads this girls to their deaths? I didn't use such a strong word because I didn't find the situation warranted it. While I don't see yet evidence to suggest he "gets some sadistic pleasure out of preying on girls" I do see enough evidence to suggest that his actions are in themselves fairly deplorable.
This is just my opinion, but I think the word "predator" would probably work best for what you're aiming to convey. It's also a word that I think isn't overly hyperbolic. I can genuinely see where someone would consider Kyubey to be predatory in his approach to some of the girls of this anime.

Even I would admit that Kyubey's approach to some girls can come across as being like predatory lending practices.
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Old 2011-02-08, 14:56   Link #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's like calling someone "a nazi" just because they can be a bit overly strict every now and then. It's excessive, imo, and it paints a far darker picture than what's really there.
Remember Slick_rick finds QB "very manipulative at best and downright evil at worst" ,so for him to be making that kind of comparaison seems logical to me

Of course I know you probably don't agree with that statement,but thats another story.
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Old 2011-02-08, 23:06   Link #1349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Did you even read what slick rick said? There is a huge difference between stating, "I view him so far in the light of a sexual predator/pedophile." and "I can affirm he is a pedophile."

And if anything, strawman fallacies from some people of the opposing opinion are NOT going to convince others. Aforementioned fallacies I start seeing a little too much here.
I view Sheba as a Nazi/sexual predator/pedophile.

A huge difference, eh?

I bet if I was serious and not just making a point, a mod would step in and issue a warning for name-calling (and may anyway, which would prove me right ;p). I've seen this far too often on places like Fox News. "I'm not calling him a Nazi, just that I see him as one."

One knows very well what reactions one is going to invoke in others when one chooses to use certain descriptive terminology.

And it's really hard to think of someone as a sexual predator, when they are going around handing out wishes and trying to raise champions to defend humanity against a very real scourge.

I see a lot of people as twisted as they claim Kyube is. Sure, let's kill the little creature that is humanity's only defense. Why? Because he's different! And I dun like peeple that r different.
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Old 2011-02-08, 23:08   Link #1350
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It took a while, but I've noticed a rather disturbing pattern in the series. In 4 out of the 5 aired episodes, Madoka and/or Sayaka are saved at the last minute from being killed or forming a contract.
That speaks of the writer falling into a habit, a bad one, I think.
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Old 2011-02-08, 23:43   Link #1351
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It took a while, but I've noticed a rather disturbing pattern in the series. In 4 out of the 5 aired episodes, Madoka and/or Sayaka are saved at the last minute from being killed or forming a contract.
That speaks of the writer falling into a habit, a bad one, I think.
It's more interesting thematically and for the story overall if they make the choice out of their own will instead of making their wish because they were in danger. I'll agree that if the show continues like this it might start getting old, but it's preferable to the alternative.
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Old 2011-02-09, 00:09   Link #1352
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I know that. Once or twice was fine. But 4 out of 5 episodes isn't.
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Old 2011-02-09, 01:43   Link #1353
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It took a while, but I've noticed a rather disturbing pattern in the series. In 4 out of the 5 aired episodes, Madoka and/or Sayaka are saved at the last minute from being killed or forming a contract.
That speaks of the writer falling into a habit, a bad one, I think.
Er, what?

I think it rather speaks badly of alot of people here, who are unable to grasp the significance behind it. The storytelling point that the writer is making here is that QB is almost persecuting Madoka and Sayaka in his drive to contract them, and it's up to the gullibility of the viewer to determine whether the high number of pressure/danger situation is a mere coincidence or not.

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Old 2011-02-09, 02:42   Link #1354
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I view Sheba as a Nazi/sexual predator/pedophile.

A huge difference, eh?

I bet if I was serious and not just making a point, a mod would step in and issue a warning for name-calling (and may anyway, which would prove me right ;p). I've seen this far too often on places like Fox News. "I'm not calling him a Nazi, just that I see him as one."

One knows very well what reactions one is going to invoke in others when one chooses to use certain descriptive terminology.

And it's really hard to think of someone as a sexual predator, when they are going around handing out wishes and trying to raise champions to defend humanity against a very real scourge.

I see a lot of people as twisted as they claim Kyube is. Sure, let's kill the little creature that is humanity's only defense. Why? Because he's different! And I dun like peeple that r different.
Well if you had reason to believe that about Sheba then you should be allowed to. Freedom of speech protects that unless you make comments you know to be false to slander someone. This board though has moderation to prevent arguments from getting to heated. Also people generally dislike QB not because he is different but because he of what he does. Saying people are prosecuting him for looking the way he does is completely and utterly absurd. None of this though was actually the issue you just have a tendency to get off the subject and go on long tangents to distort the issue.

While I don't believe him to be wholly similar to a pedophile I do find that in the same light they prey on little girls he does also. While I know you must think it is every little girls hope and dreams to throw their future away so they risk dangers and death for the rest of their lives for one wish, which they might or might not come to regret. You have to wonder if these girls are physical and emotionally ready for the kind of life making the contract leads them into. You can't place all the responsibility on them. You asking a lot of children and very little of QB, who should have the experience and knowledge to know what will probably happen. He's the closest one we have to an adult here but he's taking advantage of their naivete instead.

Let the pedophile issue drop. You don't have to agree with me. I've already given you more than once my reasoning behind it. I don't really care if you think its a hyperbole cause I see it as being a pretty fair comparison, though not a direct
comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It took a while, but I've noticed a rather disturbing pattern in the series. In 4 out of the 5 aired episodes, Madoka and/or Sayaka are saved at the last minute from being killed or forming a contract.
That speaks of the writer falling into a habit, a bad one, I think.
Really you mean that after meeting QB their lives are in constant danger? I mean it must of him similar to before they met him right? But of course once they get their MG powers all the danger will go away right? It will sun shine and happiness for all. Just like before!
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Old 2011-02-09, 06:52   Link #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I view Sheba as a Nazi/sexual predator/pedophile.

A huge difference, eh?

I bet if I was serious and not just making a point, a mod would step in and issue a warning for name-calling (and may anyway, which would prove me right ;p). I've seen this far too often on places like Fox News. "I'm not calling him a Nazi, just that I see him as one."

One knows very well what reactions one is going to invoke in others when one chooses to use certain descriptive terminology.

And it's really hard to think of someone as a sexual predator, when they are going around handing out wishes and trying to raise champions to defend humanity against a very real scourge.

I see a lot of people as twisted as they claim Kyube is. Sure, let's kill the little creature that is humanity's only defense. Why? Because he's different! And I dun like peeple that r different.
Look! Using that kind of shit is not going to make your arguments more convincing and/or compelling, it is not going to change people's mind about what they think about Kyuubey. It's making you look freaking desperate and grasping at straws.

Let me remind you that people's general opinion is generally derived from first impressions, those are the hardest to die unless they are dispelled through a convincing story told in a convincing manner.

Bottomline, drop that strawman and hyperbole shit now, you are not going to convince me to think otherwise of Kyuubey with this kind of shenanigans. You only look more desprate in my eyes.
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Old 2011-02-09, 09:36   Link #1356
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Urobuchi "Hey everyone, you've enjoyed it until episode 5? Well, the roller coaster now at its peak, time for guidance has ended! What's left is to leave the story to whatever my body could come up with. Since I'm writing it so that you want to watch the next episode, if you don't quit it by episode 3, and able to watch it until episode 6, I believe you'll be able to enjoy it until the end."

Is this true?
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Old 2011-02-09, 09:56   Link #1357
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ohmy, what does gen mean by that? i'm starting to get shivers down my spine.
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Old 2011-02-09, 10:04   Link #1358
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ohmy, what does gen mean by that? i'm starting to get shivers down my spine.
I take it to mean that the story is going to get fast and furious from this point on, and quite possibly more
action-packed. I also think it might mean a lot of episode cliffhangers. Could be quite the thrill ride!
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Old 2011-02-09, 10:21   Link #1359
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Urobuchi "Hey everyone, you've enjoyed it until episode 5? Well, the roller coaster now at its peak, time for guidance has ended! What's left is to leave the story to whatever my body could come up with. Since I'm writing it so that you want to watch the next episode, if you don't quit it by episode 3, and able to watch it until episode 6, I believe you'll be able to enjoy it until the end."

Is this true?
His body is going to get a beating if it's not.
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Old 2011-02-09, 10:49   Link #1360
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ohmy, what does gen mean by that? i'm starting to get shivers down my spine.
IF you have been exposed to his early works, you should know it could mean that t's going to be a feast for the grimdark crowd.
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