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Old 2011-02-09, 22:05   Link #141
DezoPenguin
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Depends on how you see magic as working, which I think is what Tiresias was talking about.

If you see magic as "creating specified effects which interact with the physical laws in specific ways," then yes, it's a short leap of logic. If you have the power to create bricks out of thin air, then you can, say, create a brick ten feet over somebody's head and have it drop on them. You can do anything useful you want with a brick.

On the other hand, if you see magic as "manifesting the intent of the caster in a specific way," then all bets are off. This results in things like being able to create a wall of stone...but only if it has a supporting surface to stand on. Or to shoot beams of magical energy...which only hurt people and not physical objects. Or teleportation which requires there to be a survivable landing spot for whatever you're teleporting (so no tossing people into the sun, sorry, Yuuno). The classic RPG player's problem: "Why can't I do XYZ with this spell?" "The spell doesn't work that way." "Why?" "Go ask Gary Gygax; I didn't write this description."

Since MGLN goes a long way to show us stuff blowing up and very little way to explain the rules and laws of how magic really works in the 'verse, we don't get to have "hard" answers to those questions. Instead we get theories and guesswork.
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Old 2011-02-09, 23:07   Link #142
itanshi1
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It appears to allow for both in MGLN. They have arbitrary damage effects, they have matter generation, they have matter manipulation (as in molecular movement)

Speculation as it may be, that's a lot of magic abuse that can be done. Also as it may have been said, makes certain techniques used in Nanoha look incorrect in execution given more logical alternatives.
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Old 2011-02-10, 09:52   Link #143
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
The classic RPG player's problem: "Why can't I do XYZ with this spell?" "The spell doesn't work that way." "Why?" "Go ask Gary Gygax; I didn't write this description."

Since MGLN goes a long way to show us stuff blowing up and very little way to explain the rules and laws of how magic really works in the 'verse, we don't get to have "hard" answers to those questions. Instead we get theories and guesswork.
Yup. Logic dictates that there must be a reason why support spells wasn't used offensively or more creatively, but we never knew why, not even on the fluffs.

While a detailed description of spell mechanics would definitely be better, right now I would content with just knowing the set of rules that governs them.

Especially teleportation. I have many questions regarding this one:
- Can you tele frag? If yes, what's the limitations?
- Do you need to see the destination (via Scrying) or can you blind jump?
- Can you teleport inside a large stone? If then. what would happen to both?
- Why has no-one ever use teleport for repeated hit-and-run tactics? Or so that ranged mages can evade melee ones?
- Why is is that until Force no melee fighter has ever use teleport to get close into ranged opponents?
- How much does a personal barrier affects teleportation?
- Etc
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Old 2011-02-10, 11:09   Link #144
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Well, this is what we've seen of teleportation.

1: It can go across worlds and even to between dimensions.
2: You can teleport someone forcibly wherever you want them to go.
3: You can teleport people or objects to you.
4: No limitations have ever been set for teleportation.

Lutecia teleported Gadget Drones in StrikerS with their AMF up (She's S rank, so, acceptable). Yuuno force teleported Arf away with him to let Nanoha have a fair fight in S1. In A's, the Wolkenritter could warp around, the twins could, and we know what Yuuno, Arf and Shamal did to the Protection program.
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Old 2011-02-10, 13:49   Link #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Well, this is what we've seen of teleportation.

1: It can go across worlds and even to between dimensions.
2: You can teleport someone forcibly wherever you want them to go.
3: You can teleport people or objects to you.
4: No limitations have ever been set for teleportation.

Lutecia teleported Gadget Drones in StrikerS with their AMF up (She's S rank, so, acceptable). Yuuno force teleported Arf away with him to let Nanoha have a fair fight in S1. In A's, the Wolkenritter could warp around, the twins could, and we know what Yuuno, Arf and Shamal did to the Protection program.
4a: Teleportation isn't instant but take a while.
4b: they needed to destroy the YnS's spells to teleport it first, and it was explicitely said in a teleport spell definition that it could only be done because the person was underprotected
4c: teleportation seems to go through dimensional sea, hence you cannot do it from a place blocked from dimensional sea (if you can't leave a barrier, yo ucan't teleport).
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Old 2011-02-10, 15:34   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
4a: Teleportation isn't instant but take a while.
4b: they needed to destroy the YnS's spells to teleport it first, and it was explicitely said in a teleport spell definition that it could only be done because the person was underprotected
4c: teleportation seems to go through dimensional sea, hence you cannot do it from a place blocked from dimensional sea (if you can't leave a barrier, yo ucan't teleport).
Where is 4c stated?

Give me the booklet/sound stage/manga chapter/episode where it states that all teleportation goes through the dimensional sea.
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Old 2011-02-10, 15:38   Link #147
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I guess its only a matter if that info is clarified or speculative, then. I'm all for having as much raw data as I can get. This is the spec forum :P
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Old 2011-02-10, 15:43   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
I guess its only a matter if that info is clarified or speculative, then. I'm all for having as much raw data as I can get. This is the spec forum :P
While true, I'd rather have more concrete data on stuff.

We've never seen anyone teleport through the barriers used in A's, sure.

But there's no proof that all teleportation goes through the dimensional sea.
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Old 2011-02-10, 15:45   Link #149
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Where is 4c stated?

Give me the booklet/sound stage/manga chapter/episode where it states that all teleportation goes through the dimensional sea.
there is a reason why i said 'seems'.

We do know that teleportation doesn't go through realspace and that it does go through something, and we do know that teleportation from world to world does go through the dimensional sea.

It is unknown if ALL type of teleportation does the same.
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Old 2011-02-10, 15:49   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
there is a reason why i said 'seems'.

We do know that teleportation doesn't go through realspace and that it does go through something, and we do know that teleportation from world to world does go through the dimensional sea.

It is unknown if ALL type of teleportation does the same.
At the very least, ammend the statement to say between worlds. We don't know about short-range teleportation like Yuuno did to Arf in S1 or Veyron did in Force.

I do agree about going between worlds though.
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Old 2011-02-10, 16:53   Link #151
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
At the very least, ammend the statement to say between worlds. We don't know about short-range teleportation like Yuuno did to Arf in S1 or Veyron did in Force.
There is a reason why this is in speculation and on Q&A. Using "it seems" make it obvious it's not 100% certain it always does go through dimensional sea, though it never goes through realspace, and it's never instant.
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Old 2011-02-10, 18:20   Link #152
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While we're discussing it, can AMF Field prevent teleport, in or out?
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Old 2011-02-10, 18:23   Link #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
While we're discussing it, can AMF Field prevent teleport, in or out?
Lutecia wasn't affected by the AMF and she did mass teleporation of gadget drones.
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Old 2011-02-10, 19:02   Link #154
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Spose the drones could have turned on their amf when they emerged
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Old 2011-02-10, 19:55   Link #155
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
While we're discussing it, can AMF Field prevent teleport, in or out?
AMF can prevent any kind of magic. It all depends on how good the person using teleport is.
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Old 2011-02-10, 21:02   Link #156
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AMF to me is just a dampening field. Like in magic terms it'd be eh

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Old 2011-02-11, 08:05   Link #157
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Spose the drones could have turned on their amf when they emerged
Probably. Otherwise I'm out of reason on why the TSAB didn't just teleport their best shocktroopers directly inside the ship. They seem to have no trouble teleporting marines into the Garden of Time.
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Old 2011-02-11, 12:51   Link #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Probably. Otherwise I'm out of reason on why the TSAB didn't just teleport their best shocktroopers directly inside the ship. They seem to have no trouble teleporting marines into the Garden of Time.
Same reason TSAB suffers as a whole: lack of sufficiently strong and qualified mages. Perhaps they just didn't have teleporters that could work past the strong AMF to get into the ship. Perhaps the ship is shielded against people teleporting inside.

I mean, we've already seen that a dimensional barrier can prevent people from teleporting out of it even though they can teleport all around inside, so it would stand to reason that a shield could prevent teleporting in. And given the strong AMF, teleporting would have been dampened once inside, so teleporting might have been limited to not being very far.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:53   Link #159
Tiresias
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Same reason TSAB suffers as a whole: lack of sufficiently strong and qualified mages. Perhaps they just didn't have teleporters that could work past the strong AMF to get into the ship. Perhaps the ship is shielded against people teleporting inside.
I don't think the Marines that Precia wiped the floor with counts as strong. And wouldn't the Garden of Time be shielded since its floating inside the Dimensional Sea?

New speculation: Does Nanohaverse beam attacks actually travel at the speed of light?
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Old 2011-02-11, 21:53   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
I don't think the Marines that Precia wiped the floor with counts as strong. And wouldn't the Garden of Time be shielded since its floating inside the Dimensional Sea?
Yes, the marines weren't that strong, which was why I said the TSAB has a lack of strong mages. And also, we can then assume the garden wasn't shielded. Precia is only one woman, after all, and the garden was her home that she just uprooted and fitted for dimensional travel. In short, it was kind of a makeshift ship, no match for a cruiser.

The cradle, on the other hand, was a battleship designed for combat. Big difference.

Quote:
New speculation: Does Nanohaverse beam attacks actually travel at the speed of light?
Speed of plot. If it's not light, it's sufficiently fast to prevent most dodging. I'd say that, on average, it's at least as fast as a gun shot, or an arrow.
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