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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Rating
Perfect 10 96 56.80%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 33.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 3.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-10, 16:41   Link #61
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
See what happens when you go looking for meaning in every little thing?
Uncalled, because I did say it was either a hint or an error.
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Old 2011-02-10, 16:44   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
It makes me wonder how Homura was going to deal with Sayaka if she went through so much trouble to save "Sayaka".
Like she dealt with her at the beginig of the episode. Sayaka is so weak in comparison to Homura that she doesn't have to harm her too much to put her out of commision.
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Old 2011-02-10, 16:48   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Like she dealt with her at the beginig of the episode. Sayaka is so weak in comparison to Homura that she doesn't have to harm her too much to put her out of commision.
As Kururugi Suzaku would say, only the result matters. As long as Sayaka lives (and Madoka won't lose another important person), Homura will take all the pain through the progress which isn't as important.
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Old 2011-02-10, 16:52   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
I agree but at the same time he's an as*hole either way.
Heh, you're fine to think that, but I admit I can't see that. I don't see him anymore evil as a bear killing a cat because he's hungry; he's taking steps to procure sustenance. I can understand his point of view on it, because people would be bothered to learn how he eats. And he's simply feeding on witches, something that is feeding on humans. It's more of a symbiotic relationship.

Now, if he forced things into motion when he had alternate methods of feeding, then I'd see his actions as darker. But if he's merely taking advantage of situations that already exist, then he's amoral.

Question is, will the "Kyube is evil" crowd ever admit to any kind of evidence that would sway their mind? Or are they locked into their belief and nothing will persuade them?

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Uncalled, because I did say it was either a hint or and error.
I'll apologize, but I wanted to point out the futility of trying to find meaning in things. The truth is, we'll never know what has meaning until it is referenced later. The Homura hand thing could have just been something cool that she developed(thus why it is not there in earlier shots), and we wouldn't have known until the importance of such was revealed later.

If people get upset with me for trying to reinforce this notion over and over, it is because of this. It's all fine and dandy to pick out something and form a theory over it; after all, speculation is fun. But it is important to remember that we could be making something of nothing (such as Homura's hand clench). The problem comes when people cling to these beliefs as if it is proven fact and cannot be interpretated another way.
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Old 2011-02-10, 16:56   Link #65
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^I'm basically on the same side, I was just being inappropriate replacing the amoral stuff with a simple "as*hole".
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:02   Link #66
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Evil or not, if his actions put him on direct conflict with the protagonists (and especially, Madoka) then he becomes an antagonist. I don't think we're there just yet, but we're getting close to such outcome, I feel.

A story doesn't necessarily need a villain, but it needs an antagonist, and right now all my money is on Kyubey.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:04   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Heh, you're fine to think that, but I admit I can't see that. I don't see him anymore evil as a bear killing a cat because he's hungry; he's taking steps to procure sustenance. I can understand his point of view on it, because people would be bothered to learn how he eats. And he's simply feeding on witches, something that is feeding on humans. It's more of a symbiotic relationship.

Now, if he forced things into motion when he had alternate methods of feeding, then I'd see his actions as darker. But if he's merely taking advantage of situations that already exist, then he's amoral.
I agree with this. What would be the alternative for him? Letting himself die? If he's simply trying to survive, he's selfish and amoral, but not necessarily evil. If he has more hidden plans, we'll have to wait and see.

So far he's just an antagonist, but I doubt he'll be the Big Bad. What Homura mentioned is quite interesting, I wonder what it has to do with the dream sequence...
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:06   Link #68
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He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:09   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.
So I guess he is the lost cousin of Skull Knight from Berserk.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:10   Link #70
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Then that's different. You have to wonder if those are his real intentions at all, and even if they were, what implications they would have.

Since apparently Homura mentioned that terrible things were to come, perhaps it has something to do with Kyuube succeeding in what he's doing or with side effects of said actions.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:12   Link #71
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*shrug* It depends what you base your notion of morality on.

Is a guy flying a passenger jet into the WTC, killing thousands of people evil? Hey, he's waging war against a godless enemy. Is a drug dealer handing heroin to schoolkids evil? Hey, he's wiring money to his sick grandma elsewhere. So what's to be said against a mascot who's deceiving naive kids to sign a contract, turning them into lichs who are slaving for him, pulling every nasty trick in the book to get what he wants? Where the kids are living on borrowed time and can safely be expected not to die on their deathbed?

With this wishy-washy relativist mindset, there's no such thing as evil people at all. EVERYTHING becomes explicable and excusable. At least, in this episode, for the first time QB let some exasperation show at the limitless naivite of Madoka, but also of all other MGs. For me, to let "evil" keep any kind of meaning, you've got to consider

1) What people are doing
2) What the results of their deeds are
3) How they justify what is happening

And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice... then you should RUSH to see the furry bastard. He's got a great offer for you ... and Darwin will nod at you gratefully for caring about the human gene pool.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:14   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Evil or not, if his actions put him on direct conflict with the protagonists (and especially, Madoka) then he becomes an antagonist. I don't think we're there just yet, but we're getting close to such outcome, I feel.

A story doesn't necessarily need a villain, but it needs an antagonist, and right now all my money is on Kyubey.
True, but an antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be evil. If you were reading a story where there was a virus outbreak, the virus would be the antagonist, but it wouldn't be evil. It just is.

I'll go one further, though. If it is revealed the witches didn't have a choice as to what they became, perhaps being raised by Kyube to be like cows, that would begin to tip my viewpoint to the "he's evil" side. Or perhaps the witches can be shown to have sentience and are merely feeding as well.

On another note, I've never really thought of Homura as evil, either, but as a bit antagonistic (anything that works against the protagonist is an antagonist). Is she evil? I guess I need to watch the subbed episode to have things clarified, but, did Homura know about Kyube's feeding on seeds? If there were things she knew, and didn't bother to share, then she's similar to Kyube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.
Hmm, interesting. Well, I should avoid drawing anymore conclusions until I've watched the episode, but if he's not eating them to survive, but only making sure they won't turn into another witch, then I can disregard my earlier points. But it actually makes him seem more good than evil, if he is deliberately taking steps like that to protect humanity.

And Mentar, beloved Mentar, with the hyperbole... just an fyi: Kyube hasn't taken any lives against their will. But trying to compare what you hate to terrorists... yeah... why not just call Kyube a Nazi and get it over with?

When we have people in this series blowing each other up, then we can revisit your terrorist ideas, kay?
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:21   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
*shrug* It depends what you base your notion of morality on.

Is a guy flying a passenger jet into the WTC, killing thousands of people evil? Hey, he's waging war against a godless enemy. Is a drug dealer handing heroin to schoolkids evil? Hey, he's wiring money to his sick grandma elsewhere. So what's to be said against a mascot who's deceiving naive kids to sign a contract, turning them into lichs who are slaving for him, pulling every nasty trick in the book to get what he wants? Where the kids are living on borrowed time and can safely be expected not to die on their deathbed?

I can see where you're coming from but those you cited are different motivations than your own survival. Assuming this is Kyuube's motivation then I wouldn't consider him evil because it's a physiological necessity (not sure if this is the correct term in English - my first language is Spanish, but I hope I was clear).

If his motivations are different then that's an entirely different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice...
Never once I said this. He doesn't have to be good in order to not be evil.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:25   Link #74
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What Mentar is doing is presenting a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. He's trying to present only two options: that Kyube is good, or that he is evil. And if he can rule out the former, than he can force you to believe the latter.

The reason why that reasoning doesn't work, is because there are more choices than just good and evil. Quite a few of us have been calling him amoral.

But hell, even given that dichotomy, Kyube is doing "good" by helping to get rid of witches that are plaguing humanity! So it's not even a very good false dichotomy.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:25   Link #75
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True, but an antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be evil. If you were reading a story where there was a virus outbreak, the virus would be the antagonist, but it wouldn't be evil. It just is.
That's the point. I'm not looking for evil characters. I don't care about that. I'm looking for the main antagonist of the series, and right now I think QB is heading to that role.

About Homura, she's trying to keep Madoka from contracting, and right now Madoka doesn't want to contract. So at the moment Homura is not antagonist. She's the supporter.

Narrative roles change all the time, so all this is subject to change. But this is what I'm seeing right now.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:34   Link #76
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I can see where you're coming from but those you cited are different motivations than your own survival. Assuming this is Kyuube's motivation then I wouldn't consider him evil because it's a physiological necessity (not sure if this is the correct term in English - my first language is Spanish, but I hope I was clear).
I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.

Again, the question of "good" or "evil" is inherently linked to the moral-ethical set of beliefs of the beholder. THIS is the reason why one guy's mass murderer (WTC destruction) is another guy's martyr. But in THIS story, the roles are very clear: The viewer is supposed to be on the side of the humans, and from THIS perspective, QB is _evil_, plain and simple. If on the other hand you're fine with "anything goes", then suddenly the devil itself becomes a good man, because he's diligently doing what his role - his nature - tells him to do. Makes any attempt of moral classification pointless.

But hey - 6 more eps to go. You wouldn't honestly think that what Madoka's impulsive deed forced him to reveal this ep was the worst skeleton in his locker, right? We'll have alot more "unexpected revelations" and curious coincidences in the future, too. I'm absolutely sure of that.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:35   Link #77
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Basically, the terrible thing to come is

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:41   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.
I agree it's unlikely; hence why I just said assuming that was the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But hey - 6 more eps to go. You wouldn't honestly think that what Madoka's impulsive deed forced him to reveal this ep was the worst skeleton in his locker, right? We'll have alot more "unexpected revelations" and curious coincidences in the future, too. I'm absolutely sure of that.
Yeah, we'll certainly have more revelations. But I still don't believe he needs to be evil in order to be an antagonist, nor him being a non-evil antagonist would stop us the viewers from taking Madoka's side.

I don't see it as black and white. It's possible Kyuube is evil, it's also possible he's not evil but he's the antagonist regardless.
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Old 2011-02-10, 17:41   Link #79
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Spoiler for spoiler ep 6:
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They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Old 2011-02-10, 18:01   Link #80
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WTF! i'm so gonna watch this later. L0L. i love reading spoilers most of the time. XD
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