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Old 2011-02-11, 20:13   Link #101
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Later on, during the Kyoko/Sayaka confrontation where they were about to fight... strongly implied that it would be a fight to the death, too...

Homura: We discussed this. You're not supposed to do anything.

Kyoko: Your plan's too slow! Besides, we're all ready to fight!

Homura: Then I'll fight her. Stay put this time.

Holy cow:talk about a huge difference

Here's nutbladder's version

Homura:This isn't what we agreed upon. I told you not to lay a finger on Sayaka Miki.
Kyoko:You're too damn lax!Plus, it doesn't matter. She's after me too.
Homura:Then I'll take you on.I won't hold back.
Kyoko:Fine, as soon as I'm done eating.
Homura:Very well
Sayaka:Hey, I'm right here, you know!

Anyone have Yesy's version?
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:16   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Holy cow:talk about a huge difference

Here's nutbladder's version

Homura:This isn't what we agreed upon. I told you not to lay a finger on Sayaka Miki.
Kyoko:You're too damn lax!Plus, it doesn't matter. She's after me too.
Homura:Then I'll take you on.I won't hold back.
Kyoko:Fine, as soon as I'm done eating.
Homura:Very well
Sayaka:Hey, I'm right here, you know!

Anyone have Yesy's version?
Sadly I remember clearly that I had nutbladder's version. But the translation can be very misleading if incorrectly done... Which one was right though?
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:18   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Two conversations between Homura and Kyoko according to gg subs...
Gah! So the rumors about yet another big miss were true. The Nutbladder and MahouShoujo+yesy subs were identical, yet completely different to gg:

Quote:
Kyoko: So what about that Sayaka? She's going to butt in again if we don't do anything about her.

Homura: I want this done as quietly as possible. Don't do anything. I'll handle it myself.

(that came across to me like two mafia members talking about how best to 'whack' someone )
Indeed. Just that Homura said "I want to settle this peacefully if possible. Stay out of it, I'll handle it myself."

I mean just think about it: If Homura wanted to assassinate Sayaka quietly, why would she need Kyoko's blessing? No, she wants Kyoko's promise to stay AWAY from Sayaka.

Quote:
Later on, during the Kyoko/Sayaka confrontation where they were about to fight... strongly implied that it would be a fight to the death, too...

Homura: We discussed this. You're not supposed to do anything.

Kyoko: Your plan's too slow! Besides, we're all ready to fight!

Homura: Then I'll fight her. Stay put this time.
Except that the dialog rather went like this:

Homura: "This is not what we agreed on. You're not to lay a finger on Sayaka. "

Kyoko: "You're too lax. Plus, it doesn't matter! She's after me, too!"

Homura: "I'll take her on, then. Don't get involved" (sidenote: Nutbladder was wrong here, too)


Quote:
Now I'd like to think that Homura was just BSing Kyoko in both of these instances, and had no intention of killing Sayaka. But Reckoner suggested otherwise on the Episode 6 thread in a debate with me. I can try to find his specific posts if anybody wants to see them.
Simple mistranslation/misedit issue. Homura explicitly states that she wants a peaceful resolution.

Quote:
Reckoner argued that while Homura was willing to discreetly kill Sayaka, she didn't want Sayaka to die by Madoka's hands, as that could cause Madoka incredible guilt (which Kyubey could then exploit to get her to contract with him).
Certainly also born from the mistranslation. Heck, look at her face when Madoka tossed the soul gem, and she was frantically going after it. This girl doesn't want to KILL Sayaka, she wants to SAVE her. And throughout the ep she tried to mediate a truce between them because Madoka begged her to in the last episode.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:20   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Holy cow:talk about a huge difference

Here's nutbladder's version

Homura:This isn't what we agreed upon. I told you not to lay a finger on Sayaka Miki.
Kyoko:You're too damn lax!Plus, it doesn't matter. She's after me too.
Homura:Then I'll take you on.I won't hold back.
Kyoko:Fine, as soon as I'm done eating.
Homura:Very well
Sayaka:Hey, I'm right here, you know!

Anyone have Yesy's version?
Holy cow indeed!

gg screwed up massively there.

In the gg version I watched, it made it seem like Homura was saying to Kyoko "I'll fight Sayaka so you don't have to".

The nutbladder's version makes it seem like Homura was saying to Kyoko "Since you want to fight, I'll fight you, so Sayaka doesn't have to".

The target of Homura's wrath changes completely based on which sub you go by...


I guess I'll be avoiding gg subs for this anime, lol.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:21   Link #105
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Mentar is right, beat me to it. Good that I'm a gg-shipper, though they aren't the best either.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:23   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Holy cow indeed!

Somebody screwed up massively there.

In the gg version I watched, it made it seem like Homura was saying to Kyoko "I'll fight Sayaka so you don't have to".

The nutbladder's version makes it seem like Homura was saying to Kyoko "Since you want to fight, I'll fight you, so Sayaka doesn't have to".

The target of Homura's wrath changes completely based on which sub you go by...
No, Nutbladder's version is wrong too. MahouShoujo+yesy has it right.

Homura does not threaten Kyoko. The one she's taking on is Sayaka, but not with any killing intent or anything, but rather "instead of Kyoko". She's planning to knock Sayaka out, where Kyoko is clearly trying to kill her.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:23   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
"I'll fight Sayaka so you don't have to"
This is the correct one, but if you think it's inconsistent with Homura's actions, it means you didn't pay enough attention.

Homura handed the city to Kyoko because Sayaka is weak and needs to be kept alive so Madoka won't feel tempted to contract. Kyoko said Sayaka might still try to mess with her so Homura promised to deal with her personally (so Kyoko doesn't kill her).

Besides, Homura needs Sayaka out of commission just for a few weeks or so, so she can't intervene in the Whatever Night. If Sayaka gets cough in that Hellish Night or whatever Madoka might end up contracting. And killing Sayaka would result in the same problem, so that's stupid.

Homura is Homura. She can deal with Sayaka easily and put her out of the way for some time without damaging her too much. Of course, Madoka ended up screwing up her whole plan by accident. Although, the good side is that they all learned something new about Kyubey.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:28   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Homura does not threaten Kyoko. The one she's taking on is Sayaka, but not with any killing intent or anything, but rather "instead of Kyoko". She's planning to knock Sayaka out, where Kyoko is clearly trying to kill her.
So basicly like what she did at the start of the episode,knock her out unconcious.

Do you have the full Yesy translation?Because in this scenario Sayaka saying "I'm right here you know" and Kyoko saying "wait until I'm done eating" doesn't make sense to me so I'm wondering what yesy has them saying
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:31   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Do you have the full Yesy translation?Because in this scenario Sayaka saying "I'm right here you know" and Kyoko saying "wait until I'm done eating" doesn't make sense to me so I'm wondering what yesy has them saying
Homura says she'll deal with Sayaka. Kyoko gives her until she finishs eating her pocky. Homura says that's more than enough time. That's why Sayaka got pissed.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:34   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This is the correct one, but if you think it's inconsistent with Homura's actions, it means you didn't pay enough attention.
I never said it was inconsistent with Homura's actions.

However, it's understandable that Sayaka would think...

1) I'm about to go into a fight to the death with Kyoko.

2) Homura is saying that she'll take Kyoko's place in that fight with me.

3) Ergo, Homura wants to be the one to kill me.


Keep in mind that Sayaka has had very few clear-cut, good run-ins with Homura. This is mainly due to bad circumstances, of course (such as Sayaka not being aware that Homura had been kept at bay by Mami's ropes).


Anyway, thanks for the sub info.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:35   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Homura says she'll deal with Sayaka. Kyoko gives her until she finishs eating her pocky. Homura says that's more than enough time. That's why Sayaka got pissed.
Thanks,I'd be pissed too
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:36   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
So basicly like what she did at the start of the episode,knock her out unconcious.

Do you have the full Yesy translation?Because in this scenario Sayaka saying "I'm right here you know" and Kyoko saying "wait until I'm done eating" doesn't make sense to me so I'm wondering what yesy has them saying
Transcript from MS+y (the only ones who got this scene right):

Homura: This isn't what we discussed. I thought I told you to keep your hands off of Miki Sayaka.

Kyoko: Your method wouldn't get the message across! She's not backing down either way!

Homura: I'll take her on then. Don't get involved.

Kyoko: Then I'll wait until I'm done eating this. *pointing at pocky*

Homura: That's plenty of time.

Sayaka: I won't be that easy!

In other words, Homura insists that they had the deal that Kyoko was to stay out of Sayaka's fur, which she didn't. She uses this leverage to call first dibs on Sayaka (to punch her lights out without real harm, like before). Kyoko relents but says she'll give her precedence merely for a pocky's length, to which Homura replies that she'll end the fight within those few seconds easily. And Sayaka is naturally pissed off about this line and yells that she'll last longer than that.

Makes all sense now, hm?
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:37   Link #113
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Well, I'll say this for Homura... her dialogue is Batman-level cool.
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Old 2011-02-11, 20:39   Link #114
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I never said it was inconsistent with Homura's actions.
Ah, sorry then. It's like 3:00 am here so I don't even know what the hell I'm reading.
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Old 2011-02-13, 05:56   Link #115
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it's my ear or ??

Sayaka voice sound like that Kamijo guy at the end of ep 6
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Old 2011-02-14, 14:57   Link #116
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Now I'm not trying to stir up any trouble but I really want to get this of my chest...


I feel Sayaka is getting off way to easy around here. She's not waiting until she has all the facts or trying to see where the other party is coming from.

For Example:

Kyouko is killing people for her own benefit. I will fight her, and kill her if necessary.

Homura let Mami die. She has to go too.

All the other magical girls must be the same as them. None of them are good like me.

She's not even considering that she might be wrong. She doesn't know Homura was tied up. She hasn't considered that Kyouko's attitude is actually justified, given the realities of their situation. People were calling Madoka stupid for that admittedly dumb mistake on the bridge, However Sayaka who thinks she has all the answers and is willing to kill based on a very shallow understanding of the situation get a free pass?

Not saying I don't like her but she's just well she seems to be getting some bias treatment in my eyes.
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Old 2011-02-14, 16:02   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Not saying I don't like her but she's just well she seems to be getting some bias treatment in my eyes.
I agree. In fact, I think Madoka's attitude is overall more mature than Sayaka's. Madoka is willing to hear all parties, which means she's willing to compromise. Sayaka, on the other hand, is stuck on her own values and deems anything that might oppose them to be bad.
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Old 2011-02-14, 16:06   Link #118
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Well, based on your response in the other thread, you have a spot for idealism. And in a way, Sayaka is just as idealistic; she wants to protect people of the town. However, she's not quite as idealistic as Madoka, and perhaps a bit more realistic. It should have been pretty clear from their confrontation, that Kyoko has no intention of letting familiars be killed until they become witches. And she deliberately went after Sayaka and provoked her, wanting to kill her.

Under such circumstances, there can't really be any talking out unless Kyoko is willing to relent and let Sayaka kill familiars. Considering what Kyoko wants, I don't see that happened, so a fight is inevitable.

Sayaka is a bit hot-headed, letting herself get provoked, but as Madoka even realized, Sayaka isn't wrong. She's doing the right thing, and yet paying the price for it. In a way, though, that reveals true strength of courage and conviction. It's easy to be principled, when you don't have to put those principles to the test. The fact that she's willing to put her life on the line, does speak volumes about her convictions.

I said this before, but it feels like a cynical universe to me, and in those conditions, there is rarely a good right answer. There is only option A and option B, both dirty and non-perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I agree. In fact, I think Madoka's attitude is overall more mature than Sayaka's. Madoka is willing to hear all parties, which means she's willing to compromise. Sayaka, on the other hand, is stuck on her own values and deems anything that might oppose them to be bad.
Do you honestly feel you can compromise with Kyoko? If so, what compromise do you think would work? Remember, Sayaka wants to protect people of the town. Kyoko wants the familiar to feed on humans until it becomes a witch. Where do you see compromise in there?
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Old 2011-02-14, 16:24   Link #119
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Do you honestly feel you can compromise with Kyoko? If so, what compromise do you think would work? Remember, Sayaka wants to protect people of the town. Kyoko wants the familiar to feed on humans until it becomes a witch. Where do you see compromise in there?
I don't think that's the point. Whether things change or not, you gotta try, otherwise you already lost from the start. And really, in the end, unless you try, you can't never tell for sure. An attitude like that of Sayaka would always end up in regrets.
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Old 2011-02-14, 17:33   Link #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post

I feel Sayaka is getting off way too easy around here.
If anything, I think that the opposite is true.

I think that she's taken unfair heat based on very unreasonable expectations.


Quote:
She's not waiting until she has all the facts or trying to see where the other party is coming from.
I don't think that you're truly trying to see where Sayaka is coming from.


Let's say, Dark Wing, that you love a girl with all your heart (perhaps you do in real life, in which case, this analogy should be very easy for you to get). You love her so much that you made a huge sacrifice (say, all of your life savings) to see to it that her arm is healed, so that she could pursue her beloved musical talents anew.

Shortly thereafter, a new co-worker shows up at your place of work, and advocates that you should start doing your job the way that he does, which in your view is a far more unethical (if not outright evil) way of doing your job. He also is going to engage in these unethical work practices regardless of what you say to him about it, and threatens you by pointing a gun at your head while he makes a declaration to this effect. He also wants to get you fired from your job since you won't do things his way, and says this in front of your mutual boss.

He later sneeringly insults you for choosing to make the sacrifice that you did for the girl that you love, just before you're about to pay her a visit no less. He says that you should have broke all four limbs of your girlfriend's body, as that would ensure that you'd have her forever. Then he offers to do that for you, with the obvious implication being that you're going to have to fight him in a possibly lethal fight if you want to defend your girlfriend.


Now, Dark Wing, what is your reaction to this person? Be honest now.

Whatever your reaction would be, I have my doubts that Gandhi himself could bring himself to pursuing a diplomatic solution if in Sayaka's position.


As for Sayaka's reaction to Homura, I'll get to that in a second.


Quote:
For Example:

Kyouko is killing people for her own benefit. I will fight her, and kill her if necessary.
She is, in a sense, killing people for her own benefit. At the very least, she's risking the lives of innocent people for her own benefit.


Quote:

Homura let Mami die. She has to go too.
What are you talking about? Sayaka has never looked for a physical fight with Homura. Even in Episode 1, she simply doused Homura with a fire extinguisher in order to save Kyubey's life and make a getaway.


This is what Sayaka has seen of Homura so far:

1. Homura comes into class, acts coldly and strangely, and later makes very ominous and bizarre statements to Madoka.

2. Homura tries to kill a sentient life form, seemingly unprovoked.

3. Even after Homura tried to kill her friend, Mami tries to act diplomatically towards Homura, offering to share a grief seed with Homura as a symbolic gesture of offering the olive branch. Homura literally throws it back in Mami's face.

4. Through all of this, Homura is pretty much ignoring Sayaka, and barely acknowledges that Sayaka even exists.


Even at this point, why exactly should Sayaka think that Homura is anything but a very bad seed? Why should Sayaka attempt to be diplomatic with Homura, when Mami attempting exactly that went nowhere? And Sayaka's meetings with Homura only gets worse from here.


It's fine for us viewers, having a more omniscient 3rd person perspective, to recognize that there's more to the story than what Sayaka is seeing. But at the same time, if we truly put ourselves in Sayaka's shoes, it should make it obvious that her actions and reactions are perfectly reasonable and understandable given what she has seen and gone through thus far.

Reasonable and understandable do not necessarily equal "right", by the way.

People can take reasonable and understandable courses of action that nonetheless end up being the wrong path to take. It happens. We're human, and hence we're not perfect.


Quote:

All the other magical girls must be the same as them. None of them are good like me.
This is just Sayaka preparing herself for the worst, and trying to come to grips with how her previously positive assessment of magical girls was not entirely correct.


Quote:

She's not even considering that she might be wrong.
Why would she? Seriously, why would she?

From her perspective, she has plenty of damning evidence to go on when it comes to Kyoko and Homura.


Quote:
She doesn't know Homura was tied up. She hasn't considered that Kyouko's attitude is actually justified, given the realities of their situation.
Sayaka believes that it's wrong to let innocent people die when you have the ability and power to prevent that.

She has a right to that belief, Dark Wing.

And she certainly has some pretty good company in holding it (Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc...).


Quote:
People were calling Madoka stupid for that admittedly dumb mistake on the bridge,
Madoka's action wasn't well-thought out at all, but I can understand why she panicked and did it.

My issue with Madoka's action has nothing to do with Sayaka's soul being in the soul gem (after all, how was Madoka supposed to know that?), but rather that Madoka's action would have left Sayaka absolutely defenseless against two powerful girls that are threatening to get violent with her, and possibly lethally so.


Quote:
However Sayaka who thinks she has all the answers and is willing to kill based on a very shallow understanding of the situation get a free pass?
Dark Wing, don't you think a person should be allowed to kill in self-defense, if no non-lethal means of self-defense exists? I don't think that Sayaka wants to kill Kyoko. It's just that she knows that Kyoko wants to kill her (and possibly do grievous harm to the boy that she loves), so Sayaka's only option might be to kill in necessary self-defense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

Sayaka is a bit hot-headed, letting herself get provoked, but as Madoka even realized, Sayaka isn't wrong. She's doing the right thing, and yet paying the price for it. In a way, though, that reveals true strength of courage and conviction. It's easy to be principled, when you don't have to put those principles to the test. The fact that she's willing to put her life on the line, does speak volumes about her convictions.
Totally agree.

Quote:

I said this before, but it feels like a cynical universe to me, and in those conditions, there is rarely a good right answer. There is only option A and option B, both dirty and non-perfect.
I wouldn't call it a cynical universe, necessarily. I'd simply call it a realistic one. In real life, there are some people you just can't negotiate with. There are some people that, sadly, will never be rehabilitated from criminal and/or oppressive ways.

Heck, for anybody following the news, the people of Egypt correctly made this observation, and they forced a change in government because of it.

I don't know if Kyoko can be negotiated with, but I wouldn't be very hopeful there. She certainly doesn't seem like the compromising type.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think that's the point. Whether things change or not, you gotta try, otherwise you already lost from the start.
Trying for a diplomatic solution when the chance of one is realistically hopeless may simply waste invaluable time, and strengthen the hand of a dangerous enemy.

Just ask Neville Chamberlain.

And Winston Churchill.


Quote:
And really, in the end, unless you try, you can't never tell for sure. An attitude like that of Sayaka would always end up in regrets.
I disagree. If Chamberlain was more like Sayaka, he likely would have had fewer regrets, not more.

Diplomacy is not a free choice. It comes at a cost. For you to make a diplomatic gesture to someone, you need to leave yourself somewhat vulnerable.

This is why, like it or not, careful and diligent thought needs to go into whether or not diplomacy is a wise course of action given the circumstances and the principal players involved.

Often it is a wise course of action, thankfully.

Sometimes, though, it's actually the riskier course of action.
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